nahua

I have owned the GH2 since it was first released and I remember that this conversation about moire is an exact repeat of the conversation people were having about moire and the GH2 before the camera was released and after it was widely available. Some owners found it had a lot of moire, certainly more moire than on the DSLRs and they showed their video proof on Vimeo, Youtube, etc. Other owners found that the GH2 had little or no moire, certainly less then on the DSLRs and they showed their proof online. Both camps were very confident that they were right. After I got the GH2, moire was never really an issue for me at all, but then, I never really hunted to find it. And in feedback on my videos, no one ever mentioned it.

In going back and looking into this, I have seen some GH2 videos online with a lot of moire, yet, in my own shooting it never really occurred. I am not a professional videographer and I never tried to produce moire as a test, but here is an early test video I did with the GH2 that has the opportunity to show moire and there is none to be found (look at the fences at around 1:30) (When my GH3 arrives, I plan to go back to this same waterfront and shoot the same test video.)




So, here we are again with the GH3. I have seen some videos where you can see a little moire, and even more, where you can not see any moire even when the person shooting was trying to produce moire specifically.

Here's one example of a video where the filmmaker tried to produce moire and there is none:



Here's an example of a video where the filmmaker did not try to produce any moire yet - if you look for it purposely - you can see some on the zipper of the jacket:



So, after all of the talk about it and all of the videos now available, (and I am sure the debate will continue) personally, the moire issue in the GH3 is a total non-issue for me. Under certain shooting conditions, I may get a little moire and in most other conditions there will be none. Isn't it really as simple as that?

[quote name='Kingswell' timestamp='1353042743' post='21747']
No arguing the concept is brilliant, but 4 months and still no mass production is an absolute disaster of a release. Since the end of July its been week after week of problems.
[/quote]

I love how everyone has been treating this like they haven't been letting us know what's up the whole time. Like Grant hasn't been disregarding expected industry norms by giving us regular reports (and they are ridiculously in-depth!) every time he knows something. Get a grip people. I understand you are angry because you want your camera and you want it now but have a little compassion. This is not some kind of debacle where people are sneaking around trying to keep things secret because they are worried that it might cause a fuss. I for one feel that they have been up-front and caring the whole way through. I don't know any other company that would give a damn enough to keep us all in the loop like they have. Geez guys.

And think for just a second what it must be like on their end. You think it's fun waiting around for a week for some company to send you samples only to find that they are bad... over and over?

[media]http://vimeo.com/53623079[/media]

[i]Above: A message from Andrew of SLR Magic[/i]

SLR Magic are stepping into the world of anamorphic lenses. Developed afresh, this will be a 100% new custom designed anamorphic lens for filmmakers but priced accessibly for DSLR filmmakers as well as pros. The footage above is from the early prototype and I have been speaking to Andrew about the early development of the lens.

Wow. F54K. Love the form factor. Sony could have a huge winner here. If this is priced around the $10K to $15K range then they got the market. If they price too high then they compute with the other big boys and dust collects. Disrupt and secure the market especially in these economic times.

Only rough numbers below:

1DC price - low $10000 (Australian website) and BH $12999.
C300 - $15000
C500 - $30,000 subtract rebate
Scarlet - $12000 to $15000
Epic $40000

Does Sony want to kick ass? Pricing will be the key.

Craig, you don't listen. The adapter works for mini-jack to cinch, for example the headphone output of your iPod to a stereo amplifier, but the other way is just horror. You've got a good mike, why don't you make up your mind and buy either a Juicedlink or Beachtek or a Tascam? Or you could go from XLR to mini-jack directly, with a short cable (wired in the right way, a friend of mine built such an adapter for himself, works) no problem. And then, your mixer is probably AC-bound, how practical is that?

I understand, you have not much money. Then take your time with your limited equipment and concentrate on the imagery. Don't try to buy [i]everything[/i] for 500 $. There are good shorts without any dialogue. Be patient. Do something now. Wait for the occasions to buy more and better (or the right) things. As an amateur (or beginner, if you find [i]amateur[/i] insulting), you will never be able to have exactly the equipment you are dreaming of. The enemy of art is the absence of limitations.

How the hell do they find those people?!! Who would take a load of completely still shots to test a camera? I give up...

GH2 also gets moire if using Panasonic's lenses. Namely the older M4/3 like 45-200mm or 100-300mm. I think the pancakes are OK, 14-140mm is a newer lens and you definitely won't get this with the 25mm Leica. But I agree with sanveer and jgharding - WTF with these amatuer clips? The lighting is just piss poor and what's with the picture profile? Gotta know how to get the best out of a camera. You can still shoot shit on a hacked GH2 if you use the wrong picture profile with crap lighting...

GH2 also gets moire if using Panasonic's lenses. Namely the older M4/3 like 45-200mm or 100-300mm. I think the pancakes are OK, 14-140mm is a newer lens and you definitely won't get this with the 25mm Leica. But I agree with sanveer and jgharding - WTF with these amatuer clips? The lighting is just piss poor and what's with the picture profile? Gotta know how to get the best out of a camera. You can still shoot shit on a hacked GH2 if you use the wrong picture profile with crap lighting...

GH2 also gets moire if using Panasonic's lenses. Namely the older M4/3 like 45-200mm or 100-300mm. I think the pancakes are OK, 14-140mm is a newer lens and you definitely won't get this with the 25mm Leica. But I agree with sanveer and jgharding - WTF with these amatuer clips? The lighting is just piss poor and what's with the picture profile? Gotta know how to get the best out of a camera. You can still shoot shit on a hacked GH2 if you use the wrong picture profile with crap lighting...

[quote name='Germy1979' timestamp='1349746540' post='19500']
Yeah, I actually think out of all the video offerings Canon has given us at the cost of appendages, the only 2 that have impressed me image-wise, are the C-100, (no...not the C-300) - and the old Mark 2... Nobody can afford a C-100 though, so it's just disheartening as hell to the whole community. Especially since it plays that whole side of the market at face value... until you see $6500 and you're suddenly not surprised. That's 2 BM cinema cameras that shoot Raw, & a 512gb ssd, or a full tank of gas, whatever $6500 gets you these days...
[/quote]

Hahaha ... so true. Canon has become defiantly elitist. Maybe all DSLR film-makers should boycott them, for a few months.


[quote name='chauffeurdevan' timestamp='1349755040' post='19509']
I do not expect to have better video quality in a DSLR anytime soon. The concept in itself is far from perfect. To process those high resolution sensors, you would need better DSP chips. At the same time those chips generate so much heat to process all that data that this heat cannot dissipate out of those small body. They are just not created for that.

The easiest solution would be to put in them a low megapixels count in them, kinda 4k, but as they are marketed as DSLR, it would not be a good success as it will not generate enough sales on the photo side (where most the sales are in DSLR). So I will forget a breakthrough in the video quality of DSLRs for a few years.

By now, I thought that we would already have some camera likes the C300 from the competition. I really think this is where the future belong as it is the best form factor of any camera I ever saw.
[/quote]

I don't agree with, what you say, for a moment. The GH2 doesn't heat up, too much. And, I am in India, and stay in a place, where the temperatures hover, mostly around 35-39 (in Mumbai), and around 38-46 (in Delhi), in the summers. In Europe, I don't believe, that it would be reaching anywhere close to those temperatures, that make HD shooting DSLRs and other Cameras shut down. And, I have used it (the GH2), for hours.

About processing power, if the Hacks on the GH2 can push AVCHD to beyond 200 Mbps, then, I don't believe they need more processing power. And, the short-comings on the hacks (like shutting off, or not playing certain formats, or not allowing certain settings), are due to the programmers, creating the hacks, and not the camera (or sensor). Like Andrew showed us, it may be an analogy, on the lines of the Canon 1DX and 1DC. They just want to seriously bifurcate their elitist clients (over-paying idiots), and the Indie (film-making) Consumer. That's why the codec are not up to the mark.

[quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1349713130' post='19484'] [i]An exploded view of the A99 at Photokina[/i] Whilst I was able to record some footage from the Sony A99 at Photokina I didn't really have any spare time to do much with one. The camera to me seems a little bit disappointing on the image quality front with line skipping resulting in quite heavy moire and aliasing. Not acceptable in 2012. Johnnie (who I had the pleasure of finally meeting at Photokina) is a freelance BBC cameraman and editor based in Vienna. His comments on the new A99 are mixed (as are my feelings about the camera). [/quote]

I agree. The 5D Mark ii was introduced in September 2008. 4 years later, and the video quality, in DSLRs, is exactly the same, albeit some minor, cosmetic changes. Also, the XLR Adapter for US$800 is INSANE. Sony seems to be going the Canon way, producing DSLRs with lousy video quality, at exorbitant prices. Maybe, they should just scrap the video, Altogether, instead of consistently trying to fool consumers.

Also, the Canon 5D Mark iii and the Sony A99 are double the price of the Panasonic GH3 (or more). If video is a necessary governing (factor for) price point, then, they should offer a $1000 discount, without any fuss, on both the Sony AND the Canon.

Andrew, you can't be serious, you are a Canon Basher, and you don't bash Leica? (...)

No 1080/60p50p?
Moire?
Hello, nearly 7k in price(!!)
MJPEG(!!)



you have know idea what the image will be like.
leica has a reputation defined by the purity and perfection of optics and cameras.
maybe the greatest reputation of all companies.
they go slow.they do not join cost races to dilute top line product ranges.
they wait for the best sensor,they wait for the technology to exist in a refined form before they integrate into top range products.
let us not beat them up for a camera that does not yet exist apart from tester cameras.
rumour is the test model is already pretty handy.
these products are for super serious pros with money or the very well off that want the best.
plenty of cheap plastic cameras around for the price of a leica lens hood.
i have a leica digilux 2 from 8 years ago leica replaced the sensor last year for free.
leica are not going to release the most important camera for them in years that is flawed imager.
that camera clearly is of interest to existing customers it is not trying to attract gh2 users.
this camera is only a good thing and in the future i believe they will make other products with video.
i would suggest people email leica direct with ideas for future directions.
this company is small enough to listen to valid ideas.
lets wait and see..for most it is not relevent because of price point but for some it is great news.

I'm ditching my 60D by the end of the year. I got plenty of EF-S glass that will either be sold off or used depending which way I go. It's been an interesting and steep learning curve finding out I'm more into video than stills.

If the quality is there with the GH3 and it flies off the shelves that will cause a 6D price drop. There's also the BMC & the VG900 they will be enticing to enthusiasts (like me) who want to stretch for better quality. Looking forward to more hands on reviews with the Panny. Stills are of lessor importance to me than video. I'd be much happier with a raw shootin pocket camera than dragging around a DSLR & lenses. Its a good move with the Wifi & GPS, 'Got to keep up with the jones's'.

Often I'd be out with my 60D, take some shots and want to share them straight up. Ended up pulling out my iphone instead with instant sharing and GPS Tags... LOL Go home and forget about the shots on the DSLR. So a camera that shoots raw/jpg with Wifi & GPS is fine by me! Still prefer a pocket size for that though.

But thats me I don't do this for a living, some of you guys/gals might. For me its to put some visuals to music that I write.

Love this site Btw. So much to learn

NO 60FPS in 1080P??
Canon just playing with same sensors and technology from last 5 years.

Go GH3 Go...

Canon confuses me. I love Cinestyle and the way canons see color.. (i know that's an oxymoron since cinestyle flattens out everything, but even grading it, i seem to get more aesthetically pleasing results) - But the GH cameras have cleaner images and more lens options. Then in order to have the shortcomings of the Canon's that the GH's automatically don't have, you need another $10,000.

I guess I should just stfu about it & realize....in the end......

........they truly were...

Stills cameras.


😔

[quote name='KahL' timestamp='1347865857' post='18297']
No it did not and that bit of strong misinformation was further perpetuated by this site as well.
The GH2 had a [u]HUGE [/u]amount of grading only surpassed by the iPhone and scene re-lighting to compensate for its small DR. The actual default image (shown in Ep.3) wasn't very good at all beyond resolution detail really.

I'm curious to see what the "wide dynamic range" capability actually is with this newer model though. The colors are a big turn off for me, so maybe that's a saving grace beyond deluded fandom support :-/
[/quote]
1 The GH2 arguably had the best picture well of course it did within the confines of the zacuto challenge 3. It's so annoying when people dont check their facts and run others down. On the Zacuto blind test many picked the GH2 as their favourite. I did. No less than Francis Ford Coppola picked the GH2.
2) As for the grading SO WHAT. The test was to see who could get the best picture and ALL cameras got the same chance or are you saying it was unfair in favour of the GH2.
3)You admit resolution was okay and then have an opinion NOT FACT An opinion by the way that far more professional people completely disagree with.
4)Who cares what you are curious about?
5)Dont judge me. I am not a fan of any camera I only care what it can do.
6) You have given no information only to down the GH2 and to down me for giving facts and you did this with insults inuendo and either lying or no knowledge of the facts. Are you a troll?.

[quote name='nahua' timestamp='1347623289' post='17971']
You understand that when the GH2 first came out you couldn't get it anywhere for over 3 months. Announced in September 2010, it wasn't until March 2011 that there were significant quantities in the US. Only people in Japan and asia were able to get them in 2010. So you can harp on Black Magic all you want, but Panasonic had significant problems supplying anything M43. This includes their awesome pancake lenses, Leica 25mm, batteries... the list goes on. I hope that Panasonic gets their ass in gear and produces mass quantities of the GH3, otherwise it could be well into 2013 until we even see any in the US.
[/quote]

I did not know about the gh2 delays as I bought mine recently.

Sadly it seems to be the trend regardless of the company but that does not mean it is any less unacceptable.
Preorder our product that we say we ship in January, but wait actually it will be shipped in march, and by the way when we say we will ship it in march we mean we will ship 50 units for the whole world...
Can't believe this happens so much...that's just bullshit

[quote name='Zach' timestamp='1347566472' post='17920']
I can't imagine why you would ever need to adjust audio while recording. They don't do that in the audio world! You check your levels and leave them be.
[/quote]

Are you serious? So you ask everyone in front (or behind the camera) to maintain the exact same level of sound of whatever they're saying or doing throughout the entire shot... man you really have an amazing control over your cast/crew/surrounds!

So you think cameras and audio recorders come with audio level displays just so you can sit there watching your audio clip and not do anything about it? Have you ever even seen anyone (properly) recording audio?

Some screen grabs from the video (property of Panasonic):

[img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_14/gallery_18451_14_111867.png[/img]

[img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_14/gallery_18451_14_870838.png[/img]

[img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_14/gallery_18451_14_598798.png[/img]

[media]http://youtu.be/9ZFhaYuiQSs[/media]

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1347592634' post='17946'][list]
[*][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]First Picture of GH3[/font][/color]
[/list]
[img]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj524/picrumors/panasonic_gh3_image-1.png[/img]

[/quote]

Fierce!

[quote name='Germy1979' timestamp='1347479136' post='17850']
I have this patch! All I can say is, thank you! haha! I always keep it on 160 to avoid this very thing... (unless i can't.)
[/quote]

I am glad that this could be of help. ISO 640 is just slightly more noisy than ISO 160 (but only if you select ISO 800 first, then go to ISO 640). It's very usable. There is also a theory out there that higher ISO will cut down on color banding so a little noise on this camera may not be such a bad thing!

It's the eleventh hour for the GH2, but it will still be a few months before I have its replacement in my hands so I am still trying to get the best possible performance out of it. And I'd still like to hang onto it as a B-cam, but not until I work some issues out.

I did a full-range ISO test of my GH2 with the Flowmotion 2.02 settings, starting at 12800 and working my way down to 160. I did this after reading a little more about the GH2 ISO bug. Initially, I had read that if you wanted to use ISOs 320, 640 or 1250, you had to switch the camera on and first go to [i]any[/i] higher ISO, and then back to one of these three to minimize noise. Then I did some more reading on Personal-View and apparently what you want to do is go to the next ISO increment up, and then back down to the desired setting (so if you want ISO 320, go to ISO 400, then back to 320; if you want 640, go to 800, then back to 640). This seemed to result in a MUCH cleaner image than my initial tests with the first image. The footage is pretty usable up to ISO 1250, at least with the Flowmotion hack.

What really surprised me was this:

[img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_13/gallery_18451_13_3510.jpg[/img]
ISO 160
Flowmotion 2.02
Noise enhanced for visibility
500% crop


[img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/gallery/album_13/gallery_18451_13_74801.jpg[/img]
ISO 320
Flowmotion 2.02
Noise enhanced for visibility
500% crop


This tells me that working around the ISO bug as I have talked about above, ISO 320 is actually much [i]cleaner[/i] than 160. In fact, it's the cleanest ISO (at least with this hack on my camera).

Thoughts?

It doesn't bother me. Nobody with any experience on a Gh2 would cater to its weaknesses in a real world shoot like the Empirical test. I think they just went for the cleanest image with a nice sheen on it, and that's fine. It has kind of an immediately gratifying characteristic... But by no means would i give it the "film look" stamp. Seriously, an old fast takumar for about a hundred bucks and the right grading could've taken this in a totally different direction. You can't stick a razor lens like the Fujinon in front of a Gh2 with a 150mb patch and expect it to not perform surgery. You almost have to throw some dirt on it to give it some soul... But that's cool because it's cheaper. I've seen plenty of footage that looked filmic. Granted, I can't film an indoor scene on a bright sunny day and get all manner of what's going on out the window as well as inside. But i've seen plenty of Films shot on actual FILM that blow out windows also.

Each sensor has its own character. A lot of these cameras throw a "milky" characteristic on skin that drives me nuts... You too $70,000 Alexa...

wow that is heated at provideo coalition.com!!

Steve Weiss has a point , he's put alot of time and effort and money into this test,
it's been very educational for all of us ! ............. for Free!!!
he didn't have to do it !
and I think long term it will have inspired alot of people to pick up a camera from what ever price range they can afford to get shooting knowing that their results are not that far off the big cameras if you know what you are doing.