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Why KineRAW MINI could be your next camera

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Posted

Andrew Reid shoots KineRAW MINI

[media]http://vimeo.com/72646025[/media]

Thanks to Michel and Ludwig at HD Videoshop in Berlin for the test unit. Essential primer details on the MINI are here.

The KineRAW Mini is a very cool option in the emerging raw market. With an almost identical range of features and the same 4K Super 35mm CMOS sensor found in the larger, more expensive KineRAW S35, this baby version has a form factor I absolutely love. It is not just small but light as well - very suited to the kind of art-film-on-location shoots I love.

EOSHD takes a brief hands-on look at what the camera offers.

[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/11019/why-kineraw-mini-could-be-your-next-camera]Read the full article here[/url]

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Posted

I love the images coming out of this camera and the form factor, I almost ordered this but pulled back due to lack of IS support, will definitely reconsider if they enable it. 

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Posted

thanks for this little article Andrew.  I have been looking at their website regularly hoping for a UK distributor to pop up.  If I wanted a dumb e-mount or M4/3 on there is it possible?  Speed Booster required! :)  Also, is the DE company supplying to UK?

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Posted

The highlights in the dngs look harsh with this camera.  They look clipped even when they aren't.  Even in the wide shot of the park which looks exposed to the left, the highlights on the bike, the table cloth and the guys back looked clipped.  It doesn't even change if you drop the exposure down to minus 4, the brightness and contrast to 0 and recovery all the way up: they are still there beaming away like solid blocks of bright.

 

I will be very interested to see if the Exposure Index Mode you speak of can be utilised to alleviate this.

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Posted

thanks for this little article Andrew.  I have been looking at their website regularly hoping for a UK distributor to pop up.  If I wanted a dumb e-mount or M4/3 on there is it possible?  Speed Booster required! :)  Also, is the DE company supplying to UK?

 

Will ask the German distributor, I think they ship Europe-wide. No extra VAT or duty within EU, so you don't need to wait until CVP stock one.

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Posted

I had high hopes the KineRaw S8 would come out and would really shake up the industry with's it's supposed around/under $2k price...then BMD pocket happened...then they dropped the price of the full version...S8, Digital Bolex, DOA.

 

It does kinda suck that we're now in a time when you can buy a cam and have something better come out for the same money in 6 months or have your cam lose half it's value in that same time....Damn you Moore and your damn law!!! :P

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Posted

Better? Or just different.

 

Super 8, Super 16, S35 and even IMAX have existing alongside each other for decades. No filmmaker considers one 'better' than the other, just a different brush to paint with.

 

With cameras, of course there are ones that do the same thing better than another, but I don't automatically consider a camera like Digital Bolex 'DOA' just because it has a small sensor!

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Posted

I had high hopes the KineRaw S8 would come out and would really shake up the industry with's it's supposed around/under $2k price...then BMD pocket happened...then they dropped the price of the full version...S8, Digital Bolex, DOA.

 

It does kinda suck that we're now in a time when you can buy a cam and have something better come out for the same money in 6 months or have your cam lose half it's value in that same time....Damn you Moore and your damn law!!! :P

Well. Moore's Law wasn't about loss of value at all! Nor did his law address the absurd planned obsolescence of the digital video era. It was about DOING more with more processing speed. What we have today is a futile chase of more POTENTIAL for less money.
You still have to go out there and PRODUCE :D

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Posted

I also like the form-factor ( yes me, the DSLR hater) . If they can pull all the lessons learned from the rest of the pack, they stand a chance of being the next low budget assignment shooter's dream.
We shall see. The race is becoming HOT !

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Posted

The problem is it costs £8200 to make the camera function and that's without a monitor. Its competitor should be the BMC which if you factor in a couple of hard drives is £3000

 

How on earth could anyone be considering buying this over the BM's lineup. Or is money not a consideration these days?

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Posted

£8200? On what planet?

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Posted

Straight conversion from EUR > AUD = $5,600.. $600 more than the 4K BMCC. It won't be a straight conversion though, like everything it will cost even more here.

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Posted

Some seriously wonky maths going on. I can't factor in conversion rates, can only speak for Europe where the camera is currently shipping, for a set price.
 

mini-price-list.jpg

 

Aside from the high performance media which you don't have to buy (you can use generic SSDs) how in any way is the following over priced compared to competing raw cameras?
 
Bodies:
 
5D Mark III = 2700 euro
KineRAW MINI = 3199 euro
 
Basic components for 5D =
4x 64GB CF cards = 500 euro
4x spare genuine batteries = 300 euro
1x monitor = 500 euro
Cage and top handle = 500 euro
 
Total inc. body = 4500 euro
 
Basic components for KineRAW =
2x 120GB SSDs = 150 euro
1x Switronix PB70 = 250 euro
1x monitor = 500 euro
Top handle = 100 euro
 
Total inc. body = 4199 euro
 
Other raw shooting bodies...
 
Scarlet = 15,000 euros (kitted up)
FS700 + recorder = 11,000 euros
F5 + recorder = 16,000 euros
Epic = 25,000 euros
Alexa = 70,000 euros
 
OK it is not suitable for someone to whom $600 for a GH2 is a lot of money I admit that. But c'mon. Enough with the moaning.

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Posted

I think those prices are excluding tax? I went to the stores listed on the kineraw website and the body is listed as â‚¬ 3.806,81 tax incl.

 

If the price of the body is excl tax then I assume it's the same for all the other prices listed?

 

EDIT: You forgot to list the BMCC which is far cheaper than everything listed.

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Posted

I think total price is quite subjective.

With the 5D I would go with no-brand batteries (so take out 400 euro) and I wouldn't put a cage as a must-buy (take out other 400 euro), while the KineRaw mini would have to include the EF electronic mount (+489 euro)

 

so totals should be:

 

5D 3700 euro

 

KRmini 4700 euro

 

and if prices are VAT excluded we should go up to 5640 euro, making it 150% the price of the 5D kit.

 

And of course, if you put the BMCC in, it's :

 

2000 for the body

250 ext battery

250 ssd 240gb

 

total: 2500 euro

 

clear winner, only drawback is sensor size.

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Posted

only drawback is sensor size.

 

What about with speed booster? Doesn't that help with crop factor? (I thought it made crop factor similar to a FF lens on APS-C/S35 sized sensor) +$400 though.

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Posted

The BMCC doesn't have a Super 35mm sensor, isn't very good in low light, the form factor isn't as good, it won't get 4K via an external recorder, can't do off-line CineForm, doesn't have built in LUTs, doesn't have a side-grip add-on, has issues with rolling noise, doesn't do 100fps 720P so I don't see it as a clear winner despite the lower price.

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Posted

It says: € 3.806,81 tax incl. and € 3.199,00 tax excl.

 

Source: http://www.hdvideoshop.com/en/search?orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=kineraw&submit_search=Search

 

So, a BMC or pocket camera is a lot cheaper. However, if the Kineraw can do 100 fps at 720p, it probably can do 1080/2k at 48/50/60p? That can be quite a useful feature that you don't get with a BMC...

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Posted

KR-MINI-BD Kinefinity KineRAW MINI- body only 1 pcs 3,199.00 

KR-MINI-BG Kinefinity KineRAW MINI Battery

Handgrip1 pcs 349.00 349.00

KR-MINI-CO Kinefinity KineRAW MINI - Offline

Cineform Output 1 pcs 299.00 299.00

KR-MINI-Rig Movcam KineRAW MINI Support Kit 1 pcs 389.00 389.00

KR-MAG-256 Kinefinity KineMAG SSD - 256 GB 2 pcs 1,099.00 2,198.00

KR-MINI-AEF Kinefinity KineRAW MINI - Active EF

Lens Mount

1 pcs 489.00 489.00

Total                                                                       6,923.00

Shipping                                                                     19.99

Net amount 6,942.99

VAT 19%                                                                1,319.17

 

Final amount EUR                                                  8,262.16

 

You need the hard drives and stuck with kinefinity ones. Basicly its the old arri trick of selling all the little bits and pieces to make you a millionaire.

 

The Kinefinity was something I would very much consider but they just don't compete and will go the way of the Ikonoskop

 

Yes its nice to have a larger sensor than the pocket or the BMCC But they have an answer in the 4k Every way you look at it the Kinefinity canoot compete. Shame really.

 

I think the problem was they left it to long The bolex has done the same thing.

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Posted

@andrew:

I was talking about final price, BMCC is unbeatable.

 

As for the other features, it depends on everyone's personal need.

 

Personally I wouldn't care of Cineform output and of 4K (for at least two years), while rolling shutter is important, you're right about that.

 

Anyway, BMCC lets you be in the Raw professional era for less than 3k (and BMPCC for 1.5k), while KRmini lets you enter for more than 5k euro, giving you more, so prices are quite balanced.

 

Above all, it will be a serious competitor in the brand new market of Raw cameras below 5K, and the extra features are worth the money.

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Posted

The BMCC doesn't have a Super 35mm sensor, isn't very good in low light, the form factor isn't as good, it won't get 4K via an external recorder, can't do off-line CineForm, doesn't have built in LUTs, doesn't have a side-grip add-on, has issues with rolling noise, doesn't do 100fps 720P so I don't see it as a clear winner despite the lower price.

But the smaller sensor has it's advantages too, more lens options, better DR. But i agree that the main competitor to the Kineraw is probably the 5D3 because of the full frame.

 

Either way, the Kineraw seems like is stuck between a rock and a hard place in this market. If I was desperate for full frame, i really don't see the value of it compared to the 5D3. 

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Posted

@HurtinMinorKey: KineRawmini is NOT fullframe

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Posted

If Kineraw bought the price down and sold a usable camera instead of trying to cover up maximising profits they would sell like hot cakes. Especially with the mood people are in over BMD. Surely they could do that. They could establish themselves right now for the future But this way no one in their organisation will make lots of money and will disappear off the radar in my opinion.

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Posted

Some seriously wonky maths going on. I can't factor in conversion rates, can only speak for Europe where the camera is currently shipping, for a set price.
 

OK it is not suitable for someone to whom $600 for a GH2 is a lot of money I admit that. But c'mon. Enough with the moaning.

Excellent! That sums it up and my key point is that when you start with a BOX form-factor versus the one Millionth decendent of the Leica (which was designed to transport film in the image path >>>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG/800px-Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG

You stand a way better chance of moving the product design improvements in a logical and perhaps, modular direction.
RED got it right with the concept of a box that is upgradable. Sony FS700 also 'gets that memo'.

If the folks at KineRAW are as smart as I suspect they are ( they have been listening  to USERS after all) they will follow RED's lead and develop modular cameras that use common 'Chasis', heatsink and component interfaces.

As for cost. Nothing is more expensive than a cheap camera that you entirely replace every year.

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Posted

Excellent! That sums it up and my key point is that when you start with a BOX form-factor versus the one Millionth decendent of the Leica (which was designed to transport film in the image path >>>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG/800px-Ur-Leica_IMG_0259.JPG

You stand a way better chance of moving the product design improvements in a logical and perhaps, modular direction.
RED got it right with the concept of a box that is upgradable. Sony FS700 also 'gets that memo'.

If the folks at KineRAW are as smart as I suspect they are ( they have been listening  to USERS after all) they will follow RED's lead and develop modular cameras that use common 'Chasis', heatsink and component interfaces.

As for cost. Nothing is more expensive than a cheap camera that you entirely replace every year.

What you mean like the sony f3 or maybe the canon c300 Yep you can certainly offload all your dosh on a pretty camera alright. The BMC does RAW and err prores with 4k ON BOARD. You don't have an argument The kinefinity doesn't compete Nor does the canon C300 or the Sony F3 Not if you want to make a film that is

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