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More details on global shutter and possible Blackmagic sensor supplier CMOSIS

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Posted

BMPC 4k CMOSIS Sensor

Though it cannot be 100% confirmed I am pretty sure the Blackmagic Production Camera uses a sensor supplied by CMOSIS, which if true would be very good news as it is the latest technology and already in mass production.

Here are your sensor questions answered...

[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/10091/more-details-on-global-shutter-and-possible-blackmagic-sensor-supplier-cmosis]Read the full article here[/url]

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Posted

One of the factors limiting frame rates is the overall bandwidth that the camera can handle. Red used to rate things RedCode 28, RedCode 36, RedCode 42, etc., with the number signifiying the approximate overall data rate in megabytes per second. Assuming the sensor could handle a particular higher frame rate, either each frame had to be compressed more or the RedCode number had to increase. Of course, due to a number of factors, there was a  maximum a model could reach without overheating or otherwise failing.

 

If the same is true of BMD's 4K camera, why won't they consider a lossy compression format like CineForm RAW? By reducing the data per frame, more frames per second should theoretically be possible, and at 12 bits, the CMV12000 can do 90 fps.

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Posted

Great research Andrew. Thanks for these informative posts!

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Posted

Interesting read. Also the job positions at CMOSIS are really interesting. Sadly I'm not a sensor engineer or Master in Electronics. But those positions sound sweet :)

 

Who makes the current BMCC sensor? I thought it was not CMOSIS.

 

John Brawley on the Pocket Camera sensor:

 

The sensor is exactly the same generation as the 2.5K BMCC, but it’s active area is 12.48 x 7.02mm, close to Super 16.

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Posted

By the reps do you mean the guy in that video from newsshooter.com? Or are other people saying that?

 

I kinda find it hard to take the word of the guy. He's saying the Pocket Cinema camera can't do raw on a SD card as well. I rather believe the Blackmagic website on that (even if it only comes 'later')

 

Also every time Canon introduces a new 600D, 650D, 700D with the same old shit they say it's 'a brand new sensor'. Not saying the sensor in the BMPCC is old shit, but the specs are similar to the BMCC sensor, except for the active image area, so it would make sense I think?

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Posted

I was talking to the engineer on my team off and on all day yesterday about the sensor. And yes after a whole day of back and forth you've done an excellent job of posting all of the information here.

 

So then this will be very interesting, the M43 is in beta testing mode, while I await my camera to arrive, I wonder if July comes and it still hasn't gotten to me if I should just cancel it and get a second 4k camera as well. For now keeping my place in line. They better pray they deliver on time otherwise they'll be done in the camera world. I'm just happy to see them kicking the ridiculous 1DC to the curb because I'm sick and tired of seeing Bloom and LaForet constantly shooting on those cameras ONLY now. It's like they're the best thing since sliced bread at $12,000.00

TAKE THAT CANON!

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Posted

Hmmm...

 

highest-quality.jpg

 

Kinda looks like this:

492x277.jpg

http://www.baesystems.com/article/BAES_155306/bae-systems-ultra-low-noise-imaging-sensor-headed-to-scientific--military-markets

http://ccdcmos.com/products/cameras/scientific/CIS1021-sCMOS.htm

 

Based on the CIS2051 (which is 5,5 megapixel, so could be the BMCC sensor?)

 

Google CIS1021:

Found a 42 page pdf about it: http://alliedscientificpro.com/wp-content/uploads/MAN-0103-CIS1021-Datasheet_RevA.pdf

 

CIS1021 DATASHEET
2.1 MP HD CMOS Image Sensor

  • 6.5 μm square 5T active pixels
  • Diagonal 14mm (Type 1/1.2”)
  • High resolution imaging array: 1920(H) x 1080(V) HDTV format
  • Extra 32 dark rows (16 dark rows on top and bottom edges)
  • Extra 96 dark columns (48 dark columns on left and right edges)
  • Extra 16 border rows and 16 border columns enclosing the active ROI
  • High speed operation: 100 fps in Rolling Shutter, 50 fps in Global Shutter mode
  • Low noise: 1 e
  • RMS @ 50 fps in Rolling Shutter readout mode
  • High peak quantum efficiency: > 50% at 600nm
  • High intra-scene dynamic range: 90dB (30000:1)
  • Two 11-bit output channels per pixel via dual column amplifiers
  • Column parallel 11-bit A/D conversion
  • Programmable shutter modes: Rolling Shutter and Global Shutter
  • Programmable Region of Interest (ROI) readout
  • ROI indexed by individual row vertically
  • and by 16-column wide blocks horizontally
  • Seamless integration time change in Rolling Shutter readout mode
  • On-chip temperature sensor
  • Power consumption ~ 0.8 W in dual channel 100 fps operation to ~ 0.3W in single
  • channel 50 fps operation
  • Protection against black-sun image artifacts

 

What do you think?

 

/Edit: Or this one: http://fairchildimaging.com/catalog/focal-plane-arrays/scmos/cis-1910f

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Posted

From my years in audio, PLL is phase locked loop, and in short, it's a way of removing noise (as in junk data) from conversion stages (analogue to digital, like light to digits or electrical signals produced by audio into digits). I assume its the same here...

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Posted

Great Update Thanks
So I guess I want a higher frame rate global shutter version with 2.5K vs 4K, unless future designs can deliver higher frame rates at 4K and at $4K... which no doubt is just a matetr of time and hard work in the labs.
 

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Posted

Andrew said: "The reason for this is that the electronic global shutter mechanism is incorporated into every pixel on the sensor thus taking up more room, leaving less room on the pixel to capture light. The photosites are smaller as a result and therefore less sensitive and slightly nosier."

 

Interesting. So the fact that global shutter tends to lose a stop or more of light is because of the additional physical space taken up around each photosite for the global mechanism? Does anyone have any photos/instructional images/articles that can explain more about the compromises that global shutter requires? I'd like to learn more!

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Posted

CMV-12000 full well capacity is 13500 e
Nikon D4 is 100k e

so I think BMC 4k user better not go over ISO 800. I know its still decent for many

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Posted

From my years in audio, PLL is phase locked loop, and in short, it's a way of removing noise (as in junk data) from conversion stages (analogue to digital, like light to digits or electrical signals produced by audio into digits). I assume its the same here...

 

From my understanding Phase Locked Loop replaced crystals for timing of electronic circuits, so to me if it is saying on board PLL it just means the timing circuit is on the sensor board.

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Posted

Andrew shutup!  Canon, Sony and RED might buy up all the sensors or try to shut CMOSIS down to delay my camera! lol

 

But seriously, thanks a lot for this, I hope you're right.

 

And thanks Julian, your post convinced me to pull the tigger on the pocket pre-order, if there is even a chance it has this sensor I want it.

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Posted

andrew!

 

you can`t put "mass production" and "leica m" in the same line!!

that`s a bit like "chuck norris" and "nobel prize" in one sentence.... :-)

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Posted

This all looks wonderful, but from a business standpoint it's not good.  There are customers still waiting for the original BMCC who ordered it 6 months ago and the original still apparently has fundamental deficiencies that should never have been there in the first place, even after two software updates (e.g. cant delete clips in camera).  To stay in business, its no good announcing new products if you cant manufacture or correct issues in the previous model.  You need to take time out, sort out your supply chain/manufacturing issues, make some product, generate some solid revenues and then and only then invest in new designs. 

 

For me, all of this is a disappointment. I absolutely love the image quality of the BMCC, sub-20K there is little or nothing that comes close detail and latitude-wise (this is real HD!),  and I can live with many of its other shortcomings.  But thats no use to me at all if I cant get hold of one and I need something by mid-may at the latest with a mount with good adaptor availability (MFT/PL/E or whatever).  So sadly, despite having the cash sitting in the bank ready to go today, I dont think its eventual destination will be Black Magic

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Posted

From my understanding Phase Locked Loop replaced crystals for timing of electronic circuits, so to me if it is saying on board PLL it just means the timing circuit is on the sensor board.

 

Yes you've got it, I mixed up the tech there. It's removing noise and clock jitter from sampling rate timing rather than the actual signal.

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Posted

So sadly, despite having the cash sitting in the bank ready to go today, I dont think its eventual destination will be Black Magic

 

Same here! I´m quite a bit clueless now. I make my bread with graphics design, animation and some video work (corporate film, etc...).

I´m in a situation where I don´t want to spend my money on a FS700, but want something significantly better than my GH2. But there is a big gap between these cameras.

 

Blackmagic won me as a customer and lost me at the same time because of their stupid strategy to reveal cameras, that are going to exist somewhere in the future - maybe. I think they are losing more potential customers than they are gaining that way. If I were Panasonic or Canon, I would thank BM for their impatience, because they give me enought time to think of how to react to their future products. The fact that they can´t even satisfy demand and do reveal all details and specs of their non-existent cameras beforehand makes it even easier to find the right answer...

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Posted

Raw 4k for $500 more than a 5D MK3 body price... This is my Bye bye to Canon... My 5D mk2 replacement is postponed and my Canon lenses will be used on this new beast.

Regarding BM I am sure they will deliver this time. I was surprised by their announcement... Almost hungry... But thinking a little bit... I can understand their point. The original sensor supplier almost destroyed their efforts in the camera business but now looks like they have serious partner that is, by chance, also working with another very serious company called Leica that does not compromise (At a price...) on quality manufacturing.

As most of the big corp outsource their production to hardware production specialists (Including lenses...), with good design it is possible today to revolutionize the market in a way it was unthinkable some years ago. Exciting...

Regarding the 1080p full sensor size output I wonder if this achived by a smart selection of pixels in the global shutter reads. Maybe this is a way to avoid huge scaling cpu loads and loss of definition.

Ciao

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Posted

The original BMCC sensor came from a reputable supplier, I think it was more due to the lack of cinema camera experience at that supplier in terms of quality control methodology and problems at the glass supplier.

 

I find it hard to believe that dirty glass was the only issue, maybe they had dead pixels to solve as well.

 

I think Blackmagic are using Fairchild Imaging again for the Pocket Cinema Camera sensor but it is a different version of the sensor. Similar spec but different model.

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Posted

If only we knew their production capacity and backorder quantities, then I could make my decision.  However, its looking promising, in the vimeo interview posted yesterday the BM guys seemed pretty confident that the production problems were history and they could now get on with business.  A part of me is still sorely tempted to hit the pre-order button on the MFT version and everytime I gaze open-mouthed at the dumbed down low bit-rate examples on vimeo etc, that part of me shouts just a little louder.  I must admit, watching a £2K camera go toe to toe with an Alexa and come out ok is quite something.

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Posted



Regarding the 1080p full sensor size output I wonder if this achived by a smart selection of pixels in the global shutter reads. Maybe this is a way to avoid huge scaling cpu loads and loss of definition.

Ciao

 

 

I suppose since it's not rolling there's no need to "line skip", so it could be either scaling a capture from all of the pixels in realtime with a scaling algorithm, or skipping in a mosaic pattern of some kind, though you'd think that'd mean artifacts.

 

They've said it's a little less sharp than the 2.5K version, I'm not sad about that, excessive sharpness is too video and kinda over-rated i think. I'd rather a slightly softer image that has a great motion feel and colour rendition.

 

That's why Alexa look is so popular still compared to Epic i think, despite all the resolution obsession in the latter and the hire price being the same, Alexa just has a unique feel, like a special type of film.

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Posted

Detail and sharpness are separate things really. Like JG says, too much sharpness = video.

 

But there are many complicating factors.

 

For example if you have a 50mm on the 60D and shoot some actors or people at reasonably close range with a reasonably shallow depth of field, that really helps to mask any resolution shortcoming. Then you put an ultra wide angle lens on it and focus to infinity - it ain't pretty. Same camera. Why does one shot come out so much cleaner than the other?

 

60d-moire.jpg

 

I mean, you're not going to notice 4K in the bokeh are you!?

 

Sometimes you just DON'T NEED a high resolving power or 4K. A high detail level is more important for shots at infinity focus with lots of very high contrast fine detail.

 

We tend to band about the word 'sharp' as a catch all phrase for high resolution, high detail, sharp lens, sharp image, etc. 'High resolution' would be a better phrase. A 4K film scan is high resolution without being too sharp looking. With high sharpness you get a very high contrast between pixels and that can be quite fatiguing for the eye in motion and un-film like. Too much micro-contrast is bad for motion cadence with digital. What is also important is the integrity of the detail you're seeing. If it is falling apart like on a Canon DSLR with false detail and moire, that to me is unacceptable for certain types of shot... Like the one above... But less noticeable with soft lighting and people!

 

A lot of my work had cityscapes, vistas and wide shots which is why I went for the GH2 over the 60D.

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Posted

The perfect example of excessive sharpness for me is The Hobbit.

 

Watching that on BluRay after a while you feel like your eyes have been sanded!

 

It certainly doesn't have the feel of the original Kodak-shot trilogy, and it's most noticable, as you say, with portraits, where the edges of the hair become distracting from the actual scene!

 

It's brittle compared to the rounded organic detail of celluloid, with its uneven grain structure.

 

If all sensors were foveon -style stacked, it'd be a start. No debayering would be nice...

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Posted

Well said Andrew!

This Sharpness thing has been annoying me for ages - its all you hear & is completely irrelevant compared to the question of whether something keeps its resolution. Its all about resolution, resolution, resolution!

This is true of Cameras & Lenses alike - "Is it sharp?" is all you hear.

I chose my 60D for the opposite reasons to Andrew & for the photography side as well.

 

Here's a v.good example of a lens with high resolution, but not the sharpest - Angenieux 35-70mm (look through to find the 100% crop pictures on p3+4 - they're stunning!):

 

http://forum.mflenses.com/angenieux-2-5-3-3-35-70mm-leica-r-mount-t19877.html

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