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Lukas

To buy or not to buy

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Hello I am new here and really hope that this is the right place to post this, if so, please excuse me ;)

So to my question...

Since the latest developments with the ML RAW Hack on the 5D Mk3 (and a whole bunch of others) is still moving and running like a charm it seems, I am more and more drawn towards buying a 5D Mk3.

As I am still some young guy, fascinated by cameras and the movie making world and still not really earning thousands a day, this would be a HUGE investment for me.

I got my 60D and some glass, but damn I really have the feeling that I´m running into my limits there. I like the camera, I own it since it was released and it has fulfilled its job eversince, but I feel like its time to step up the game a bit.

Could this be the right choice? Would it be gamechanging for me?

 

Also feel free to make this the general go-to thread with equal matters relating buy/dont buy decisions ;)

 

Cheers,
Lukas

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

What limits are you running into? Have you tried raw on the 60D?

 

Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to buy one :) Just do it (if you can spare the money) and enjoy!

If you don't have or can't miss the money, forget about it. A new camera isn't going to make your end results any better.

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Camera bodies come and go very quickly, lenses are forever. If your not making any money off your camera, i'd use a hacked gh2 over a 5d, the camera body costs 600 bucks or so and the image quality when hacked is ridiculous, it won't hold you back and you won't have to jump through hoops processing raw data etc. You'll be grateful you spent $3500 (spend it on lenses and accessories instead!) less in 12 months time when some other camera is the hot thing.

 

In a blind test, Francis ford coppola actually picked gh2 footage as his favourite footage over red epic, arri alexia and other pro cameras, some of which cost as much as 75k.

 

http://www.43rumors.com/zacuto-shootout-francis-ford-coppola-votes-for-the-gh2-and-beats-arri-and-sony/

 

Good luck!

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I guess you guys are right...the 5D Mk3 is really really tempting, but maybe a little too much for me (financially) at the moment.
I tried the 60d RAW Hack and it also works like it should, but the fact that it does not ercord audio at all and that it is only 960x545 (or so) continuosly, really annoys me...

A 5D Mk3 would be the perfect fit for everything I do and pretty much offers the best bang for the buck for me right now...but its still a hell lot of money... I hate these kind of decisions!

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@Lukas 

 

I'm in the same boat, but my dilemma is 5D3 or BM Pocket (which i have on pre-order).

I think if the Pocket does actually come out in the next 2 months, then i'll give it a go as it does RAW & Prores (also need to factor in the Speedbooster, which will definitely provide more options).

If there are massive delays, then it might just have to be the 5D3 - but it is a lot more money & it will only do RAW (& the mushy H264)!

 

Another thing to remember is that A1ex has said that there is still free memory available on the 60D & he is working on trying to make use of it - it won't mean that we'll get continuous recording @ 1080, but it might mean we get continuous (or near continuous) @ 720, which will definitely be v.useable.

 

I think its a waiting game, for a few months at least, rather than a "I want it now!" attitude.

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When one thinks about the MK3.. and the reality of CF*s as of now. I actually came to the conclusion that the Black Magic cinema camera is a good buy .. since it's same price and uses SSD's (much cheaper than the CF*s, no need to play around with the KomputerBay lotto) and you get Davinci Resolve. 

 

Blackmagic cinema cameras image is quite good when Andrew made the comparison bwtween MK3 and BMCC. 

 

Getting the pocket cinema camera and speed booster  for Canon glass might be a good route. Then you are buying glass that can be used on Mark III and on Blackmagic Production camera and C100 and C300 etc etc later. 

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The available memory on the 60D has come to my mind, too! 720p continuous would be awesome and would absolutely be enough for my needs, I love the quality I can get with 720p on my 60D! But around 350 Frames right now, really doesnt cut it.

The BMPCC is still in the race for me, as it would also relly fill my needs! Its small so I could take it anywhere, the image quality looks really impressive and all...but the tiny sensor scares me away. It will be interesting to see what the speedboster can achieve, but I´m not really counting on it. I like to go wide, as I am often shooting sports. But I really dont feel that I am covered on the wide end with this camera right now...

I guess it all comes down to waiting, saving up some more money and looking at things in about 3-6 months. Maybe then I have enough money to easily buy the 5D without having to eat nothing bu bread for the rest of my life, or something even better shows up!

 

Also: Thanks in advance for the helpful and kind words, guys!

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Realistically, if you are sweating over the price of a 5dIII, you probably already have your answer.... Are you even set up for a raw workflow? Expensive CF cards, TBs of harddrives, probably a new CPU, GPU and more ram? You will still need an audio solution, probably a monitor solution too.

 

What about the 50D, seems like a good compromise

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That is what I am saying. Do you need a RAW?  the back end for dealing with it is going to be a pain in the arse and expensive for a modest gain in performance. An investment of time in studying screenwriting or cinematography will yield much bigger gains (and cheaper) than the difference between a hacked gh2 and 5dIII raw.

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but the tiny sensor scares me away. It will be interesting to see what the speedboster can achieve, but I´m not really counting on it. I like to go wide, as I am often shooting sports. But I really dont feel that I am covered on the wide end with this camera right now.

 

I would think the smaller sensor would help for sports? I use the 5DIII crop mode for surf shots and the like.

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If you don't like smaller sensors, this may not be your cup of tea, but the Panasonic GH3 is by many considered the best "video-camera" under $2K. Quality is great,and while RAW is not available (yet..could be hacked down the line I suppose), it comes with very high bitrates out of the box, and does 1080 at 60p (good for sports). Personally, I just ordered it myself, and will down the line supplement it with either a bmpcc, bmcc or bmcc 4k. (I eventually want to do some green-screen etc and 4:2:2 material at highest possible bit per channel is essential then)

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I think you shouldn't buy anything. You already have something to play with that lets you learn film. For the handful of days a year* you need better quality than that, you should rent a professional cinema camera appropriate for the budget of your productions. Working with a professional kit will teach you more about film and what you're looking for than just a notch or two kludges up from where you are now would. And it will authentically deliver the quality you're seeking rather than just get close to it. And it will work out cheaper in the long run.

 

* EVERYONE thinks that if they only got the camera of their dreams they'd be out shooting every day. That has nothing to do with reality. Professional camera operators shoot every day, and some of them have their own cameras but most use what's provided or rent. But camera enthusiasts are people who rather than take what they have (even a cellphone) and shoot with it every day they sit around and think getting a better camera is what's holding them back from shooting. Sadly no. And anyone who isn't a pro camera operator, but is instead making entire productions themselves, will learn that capture is only about 10% of the process at most. Pre- and post-production in all its forms is at least 90% of your time. So the actual cost comparison of rental has to take that reality, so strongly denied by the ambitious amateur, into account.

 

Plus you can usually find a friend with more money than sense who has made this error to just lend you a better camera rather than buy one yourself.

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I think you shouldn't buy anything. You already have something to play with that lets you learn film. For the handful of days a year* you need better quality than that, you should rent a professional cinema camera appropriate for the budget of your productions. Working with a professional kit will teach you more about film and what you're looking for than just a notch or two kludges up from where you are now would. And it will authentically deliver the quality you're seeking rather than just get close to it. And it will work out cheaper in the long run.

 

* EVERYONE thinks that if they only got the camera of their dreams they'd be out shooting every day. That has nothing to do with reality. Professional camera operators shoot every day, and some of them have their own cameras but most use what's provided or rent. But camera enthusiasts are people who rather than take what they have (even a cellphone) and shoot with it every day they sit around and think getting a better camera is what's holding them back from shooting. Sadly no. And anyone who isn't a pro camera operator, but is instead making entire productions themselves, will learn that capture is only about 10% of the process at most. Pre- and post-production in all its forms is at least 90% of your time. So the actual cost comparison of rental has to take that reality, so strongly denied by the ambitious amateur, into account.

 

Plus you can usually find a friend with more money than sense who has made this error to just lend you a better camera rather than buy one yourself.

 

Plenty of truth there. 60D + editting software + spending time doing it. Learn! LEARN!  :D  I personally chose GH2 to get things started. The image quality after all is enough for a real film  if it comes to that .. even tho the GH 2 sucks with it's monitors ( my biggest gripe with it)

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I am shooting a lot with my 60D, mostly private this and that, mostly not real productions (still learning, ur right ;) ).

The problem is that more often than not I find myself being grumpy over its poor performance (OK, poor might be a bit harsh, but...lacking that extra kick). Thats why I would love the extra quality of RAW. The post workflow is time consuming to say the least, but nothing impossible.

But I guess you guys are right, RAW aint really worth the effort for everything except real productions and tests.

Would there be an option for me if I want that extra kick, without ML RAW? I mean except the GH3/2 and BMPCC? Dont get me wrong, these are beasts from what I´ve seen, I just dont see myself investing in M43/C Mount glass in the near future...Not that I own thousands of EF (compatible) glass, but I simply own no M43 glass at all, so that would be another (large) investment to consider. Plus I love the shallow DOF of S35 (equivalent).

But I am not sure right now what the speedboster would give me on a GH3 for example...?

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All a speedbooster is going to do for you is get you close to what the 5D3 already does regarding DoF and low-light sensitivity. But it won't get you all the way. It's a means of people compensating for their puny sensors.  :P

 

Plus it's quite expensive at $600 or so for the good one (the cheap fotodiox knockoff got slammed in reviews I read). The one place I think it's useful is on the FS700, strictly because the FS700 offers 240fps overcrank and you want as much light on the sensor for overcrank as you can get.

 

You can rent a 5D3 of course and try it out and see if that "extra kick" is what's missing from your art. You will not have to rent lenses if you already have full-frame covering ones. I personally find it wasteful madness to have redundant lens systems and I'm not as budget constrained as you are. I just work with EF and a few EF-S and manual Nikon lenses that cover my 5D3 and C100 just fine and won't be obsolete soon. The 4K cameras are likely going to want at least Super35 size sensors and M43 glass will be SOL for them...possible loss of investment for the next generation. M43 4K if it ever is developed is going to have very puny photosites to work with, with physically limited dynamic range...and it's dynamic range that is attracting you to RAW after all.

 

Part of the problem is online blogs and discussion forums are full of gear addicts (can't deny I'm among them) who obsess over the finest gradations of image quality but who generally do middling to pitiful work. So you get cued into thinking you should be dissatisfied with your 60D. But I imagine you haven't gotten the most out of the 60D...if you like DR, are you shooting in Cinestyle? Cinestyle is terrific, and coupled with Neat Video and something like FilmConvert or even just de-logging manually as I often do you can make your 60D shine provided you avoid bad moire during capture (learn to recognize it in zoom assist and reposition the camera accordingly). And Cinestyle is free, Neat Video is cheap, and pulling an S-curve on log footage is a lot easier than working with RAW. But the gear addicts will aggressively deny this obvious truth because admitting it would threaten the justification for their ridiculous (given their output) investment.

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Yepp, gear addict over here, too ;) But I feel like at least I am not buying what I wouldnt use, but maybe thats just me screwing myself over :P

 

I guess you´re right, I havent gotten the most out of my 60D...I use cinestyle, but I kinda havent gotten around yet, how to make it shine! All I got out of it for now is weird looking footage, having a bit of that hipster, ungraded look. But I believe thats just me, not being able to grade the footage all that well right now, just as I havent got all that much experience with it.

I guess I would be better off not buying a 5D III but investing in more, and better glass (always want to expand on my R lenses, as I currently only own the Summicron 50mm f2, which I simply LOVE!).

Maybe buy a 50D at some point when I really feel that I have to have RAW, as it really seems to offer an incredibly bang for the buck. Or maybe just wait what the 7D Mk II will have to offer as I hope that Canon got its shit together and the first sing of that would be the 70D...

 

Thanks a lot in for the help, guys!

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As you've discovered Raw is a real pain in the ass!

The 60D is a great camera - as peederj said you've got to know what to avoid & how to recognise it.

People who complain about moire/aliasing just don't get it & an audience will never notice or care.

 

Also, there are attempts to improve the H264 video for 60D via porting Tragic Lantern (like the 600D), which will dramatically improve the quality - its taking shape & hopefully we won't have to wait too long till we get it.

 

Neat video is great, but i don't like Cinestyle & have gone with VisionTech (by Visioncolor), which i find much more pleasing.

Its all personnel taste in the end - try a few flavours, as there are loads of free PS out there.

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Most of the time I´m using Flaat10, which does a good job for me as it gets close to the final results, meaning I cant screw up too much with grading.

But I have never heard of Tragic Lantern to be honest? Where can I get some news/infos about that?

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