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Mixing HLG and SDR clips


NickSim
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Hey guys, I'm new so apologies if I'm posting in the wrong place or if I seem... Confused, cause I am! My goal is to create content that is of the highest quality that I can generate today, which looks good with devices available to the masses right now and in the future ie HLG/HDR10/DV.

I'm seeking NLE advise, specifically in DiVinci Resolve (15 Beta) as it is my understanding that Resolve is ahead of the curve in regards to working with and triggering HDR content properly for YouTube delivery, please correct me if I'm wrong. I've jumped on the HLG bandwagon perhaps without fully comprehending the nuances of HLG, but alas here I am... I'm shooting with an A7R III HLG / 8-bit Rec.2020 colorspace, GH5 HLG 4:2:2 and DJI X5s D-Cinelike -1/-1/-1 all ETTR. Most 4K/30p but some 1080/60p/120p to be played back in 30p for slow-mo. I'm using an X-Rite colorchart as a reference point to create my own LUTS. I have an HDR10 monitor that displays 100% AdobeRGB (Dell UP2718Q), running Windows 10 with HDR/WCG enabled.

 

My questions are:

What should I be using for project settings? I'm assuming 4K UHD 29.97 timeline and playback, Divinvi YRGB colormanaged, Input/Timeline/Output Rec.2020 HLG ARIB-STD-B67. And will a render using that output setting cause viewing issues with SDR devices?

Curiously I can't enable the checkbox "Enable HDR Metadata over HDMI", I can't find "Enable HDR Scopes for St.2084" and I can't enable the checkbox "HDR Mastering is for XXXX Nits" as shown in this tutorial, probably as I'm using an mDP cable to my monitor AND/OR because he's using Resolve 12.5... does this matter? My understanding of DP vs HDMI is that for monitor use, DP is the preferred connection method.

I believe I'm dealing with mixed gammas between the HLG and D-Cineline, how does one work with mixed gammas in a single timeline?

How does one handle Rec.2020 and Rec.709 clips in a single timeline? If I'm working in a Rec.2020 colorspace does that affect the appearance Rec.709 footage in anyway? 

Does working and grading in an HDR sphere change the appearance of SDR content when delivered to SDR viewers? In other words, what looks good to me may be crushed when viewed in SDR/Rec.709, how to I know/prevent/deal with that issue?

 

Thanks for your input guys! As you can tell I'm still new to all of this... Photography came to me easy, but video... phew.

 

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EOSHD Pro Color 5 for Sony cameras EOSHD Z LOG for Nikon CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I'm a Resolve user, but haven't really played with HDR so I'll try not to speak out of turn on that, however I have a couple of thoughts that might be useful.

Instead of controlling the input colour space via the clip properties you can convert the colour space in the node graph using the excellent Colour Space Transform OFX plugin.  Juan Melara has an excellent tutorial about how to grade footage using it here:

I think that method (using the OFX plugin) is the answer to how you can work with input clips that come from different colour spaces, but some google searches should be able to confirm that for you.

Also, I've heard that Resolve is a bit limited with options when using the GUI because it's designed to be used with a calibrated monitor via one of the Blackmagic video output devices listed here: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products (under the Capture and Playback section).  There is also a discontinued product called the Ultrastudio Mini Monitor that was only 1080 but might also be useful (I'm not sure on what colour spaces it supports), and I believe there were also an equivalent PCI output card if you're on a desktop machine.  

This is how Resolve is designed to work so support for these hardware devices is fully integrated into Resolve and it's how all the pro colourists all work so there's lots of support for that kind of setup.

If the nice people here aren't able to help then I'd recommend liftgammagain.com forums where the pro colourists all congregate, and they do this stuff all day long :)

Good luck!!

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6 hours ago, NickSim said:

What should I be using for project settings? I'm assuming 4K UHD 29.97 timeline and playback, Divinvi YRGB colormanaged, Input/Timeline/Output Rec.2020 HLG ARIB-STD-B67. And will a render using that output setting cause viewing issues with SDR devices?

If your exporting for youtube, that wont be a problem, they automatically set REC709/REC2020 output depending on viewer's device

Curiously I can't enable the checkbox "Enable HDR Metadata over HDMI", I can't find "Enable HDR Scopes for St.2084" and I can't enable the checkbox "HDR Mastering is for XXXX 

For scopes, it's moved to another submenu:

2yyxlc2.png

I believe I'm dealing with mixed gammas between the HLG and D-Cineline, how does one work with mixed gammas in a single timeline?

I would choose ACES workflow, with camera dependent input transformations, instead of Davinci Color managed.

How does one handle Rec.2020 and Rec.709 clips in a single timeline? If I'm working in a Rec.2020 colorspace does that affect the appearance Rec.709 footage in anyway? 

In ACES if you convert REC709 clips to REC2020, the output will be fine, the luma levels will be mapped.

Does working and grading in an HDR sphere change the appearance of SDR content when delivered to SDR viewers? In other words, what looks good to me may be crushed when viewed in SDR/Rec.709, how to I know/prevent/deal with that issue?

If you are working with ACES in REC2020, the SDR viewers (according to my limited experience) will see gentle highlight roll-off in both highlight and shadow regions. HDR viewers will see full tonality in both end with better contrast.

 

 

 

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@kye @Deadcode Thanks for the info, I’ve now got a good direction to further my investigations. 

 

@jonpais you can learn more about the Dell UP2718Q here the picture gets a little strange at 1000nits, you can see some highlight ‘glow’, a bleeding effect that is especially visible when viewed off axis. So I wouldn’t put it up against a $12,000 NEC or Eizo but I feel that it’s sufficient for my use.

 

It also was a collaboration between Dell and x-rite, it has built-in support for the x-rite i1 Display at the hardware level which is suppose to retain the entire color gamut as opposed to software calibration which may take a 100% AdobeRGB rated panel down to say 98.5% after software calibration.

 

With that said, I am having issues performing calibration when outputting to HDR. I believe it’s because I have an older (2011 build) i1 Display which doesn’t support 1000nit levels of output, I vaguely remember reading that newer models support 1500(?) nits even though they aren’t rated for that per-se. I’m currently waiting to hear back from x-rite support on that one.

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11 hours ago, jonpais said:

@NickSim The cheapest HDR monitor on the market runs no less than $12,000. Which one are you actually using?

So you are saying none of these monitors are really HDR monitors even if they are 10bit panels, and have the 1000 nit brightness? Not being a smart ass, what else is needed than to see it?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/16/hdr-monitor-buying-guide/

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11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

So you are saying none of these monitors are really HDR monitors even if they are 10bit panels, and have the 1000 nit brightness? Not being a smart ass, what else is needed than to see it?

https://www.engadget.com/2018/05/16/hdr-monitor-buying-guide/

I'm not either - the article does not have test results, so let's be perfectly frank - it's not very valuable. Of those listed, the only that I've seen test results from is Dell's UltraSharp 27 4K monitor, and it has serious limitations. The VESA standards are practically meaningless, as now practically every monitor in the showroom can now boast of being HDR.

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You have to copy them to some folder and use the "choose Files" thingy on the bottom left.

I don't Have to upgrade my monitor. But it is Only 2K and would be nice to be able to see 4K content and have ta better Color Gamut. But my current one is 30", so in 4K I would think I would need a 32" at my advanced age to be able to read much of Anything on it LoL.

Sort of what my one eye does so....

 

crazy eyeball.gif

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45 minutes ago, jonpais said:

At the moment, there are no true consumer priced HDR grading monitors on the market without lots of drawbacks. Which is why I'm asking the OP which HDR10 monitor he's using.

He already wrote it in the first post: Dell UP2718Q. It's good for watching HDR content on youtube but not enough for content creation.

 

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