Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
andrgl

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera

Recommended Posts

Shit, I'm just going to be happy with 10bit 4:2:2.

I think the RAW capabilities will be a plus, but i think we'd be looking at an external recorder realistically & this will be probably be true for ProRes as well - an external will be more cost effective & you'll get a bigger screen to look at to boot.

 

Looking at SD cards the fastest is

Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb @95mb/s (nearly £100).

Sandisk Extreme 128gb @45mb/s (same price as above) - but will this be fast enough.

 

Added to this, the fact that you probably won't be able to delete files in-camera.

This just might be a little bit more expensive then we first thought.

But as i said, i'm happy with 10bit ProRes & if the sensor spec (in another post) is correct, they could enable 60fps.

 

Oh looks like it has Timelapse feature as well!

http://www.dslrfilmnoob.com/2013/04/10/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-updates/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I think his goal of 1.5:1 compression ratios for the Pocket are very ambitious and unlikely.
Someone help me figure this out and correct my math if it's wrong

Frame size: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels

12 bit Y' Channel: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
12 bit Cb Channel:
1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
12 bit Cr Channel: 1920x1080 resolution = 2,073,600 pixels * 12bits per pixel = 24,883,200 bits per frame
Total "YUV" Channels: 74,649,600 bits per frame

Frame rate: 23.976 frames per second * 74,649,600 bits per frame = 1,789,798,809.6 bits per second
 

 

I think your math is correct, but the reality is different from the theoretical numbers. For example, the BMCC CinemaDNG's are like 5MB each.

 

According to the math, they should be 119.596.032 bits per frame, or 14,2MB each.

 

That's not the case. So even though CinemaDNG is RAW, the size it is not just the sum of all bits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I do not think those numbers are theoretical, that's the RAW data flow of a "Full HD" RAW 12bit image, everyone starts with those numbers.  It just depends on if they de-bayer and how much they compress down after that.  From those numbers it would seem the original BMCC is not preforming any de-bayering in camera, as 4.98MB is the 14.94MB RGB image before applying a de-mosaic, which triples the size. (which is good for image and space but add more work in post)

 

To help us better expect what we're getting into I compiled a list of SD Card options for the PocketCC and their approximate footage capacity.
 
For CinemaDNG (assuming 1.5:1~49MB/s):
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 64GB 90MB/s write ($119.99) holds 21 mins
 
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 32GB 90MB/s write ($60.13) holds 10 mins 30 seconds
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 32GB 90MB/s write ($60.99) holds 10 mins 30 seconds
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 32GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 10 mins 30 seconds
 
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 16GB 90MB/s write ($34.99) holds 5 mins 15 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 16GB 90MB/s write ($37.95) holds 5 mins 15 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s Micro" 16GB 80MB/s write ($49.43) holds 5 mins 15 seconds
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 16GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 5 mins 15 seconds
 
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 8GB 90MB/s write ($ ) holds 2 min 37 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 8GB 90MB/s write ($20.95) 2 min 37 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s Micro" 8GB 80MB/s write ($25.15) 2 min 37 seconds
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 8GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 2 min 37 seconds
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For ProRes HQ (assuming 220Mbps~27.5MB/s):
Lexar "Professional 600x" 256GB 40MB/s write ($594.80) holds 155 mins
 
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 45MB/s" 128GB 45MB/s write ($139.94) holds 77 mins
PNY "Professional X 233x" 128GB 35MB/s write ($144.99) holds 77 mins
 
Transcend "Ultimate UHS-1(red card)" 64GB 40MB/s write ($54.95) holds 38 mins*Most Practical solution
PNY "Professional X 233x" 64GB 35MB/s write ($69.99) holds 38 mins
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 45MB/s" 64GB 45MB/s write ($72.95) holds 38 mins
Sony "UHS-1 94MB/s" 64GB 45MB/s write ($73.67) holds 38 mins
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 64GB 90MB/s write ($119.99) holds 38 mins
 
ADATA "Premier Pro" 32GB 44MB/s write ($35.99) holds 19 mins
Sony "UHS-1 94Mb/s" 32GB 45MB/s write ($39.02) holds 19 mins
SanDisk "Extreme 45MB/s" 32GB 45MB/s write ($39.95) holds 19 mins
Transcend "Ultimate UHS-1(red card)" 32GB 40MB/s write ($39.99) holds 19 mins
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 32GB 90MB/s write ($60.13) holds 19 mins
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 32GB 90MB/s write ($60.99) holds 19 mins
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 32GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 19 mins
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 45MB/s" 32GB 45MB/s write ($73.95) holds 19 mins
PNY  "Pro-Elite Plus 80MB/s" 32GB 35MB/s write ($139.99) holds 19 mins
Lexar "Professional 600x" 32GB 40MB/s write ($ ) holds 19 mins
 
SanDisk "Extreme 45MB/s" 16GB 45MB/s write ($22.95) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
Transcend "Ultimate UHS-1(red card)" 16GB 40MB/s write ($) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 16GB 90MB/s write ($34.99) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 16GB 90MB/s write ($37.95) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s Micro" 16GB 80MB/s write ($49.43) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
PNY  "Pro-Elite Plus 80MB/s" 16GB 35MB/s write ($65.99) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 16GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 9 mins 30 seconds
 
Transcend "Ultimate UHS-1(red card)" 8GB 40MB/s write ($ ) holds 4 mins 45 seconds
Toshiba "Exceria Type 1" 8GB 90MB/s write ($ ) holds 4 min 45 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s" 8GB 90MB/s write ($20.95) holds 4 min 45 seconds
SanDisk "Extreme Pro 95MB/s Micro" 8GB 80MB/s write ($25.15) holds 4 min 45 seconds
PNY  "Pro-Elite Plus 80MB/s" 8GB 35MB/s write ($34.99) holds 4 min 45 seconds
Panasonic "Gold Pro" 8GB 80MB/s write (EU only) holds 4 min 45 seconds
 
Transcend "Ultimate UHS-1(red card)" 4GB 40MB/s write ($) holds 2 mins 22 seconds
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These Cards are too slow:
SanDisk "Extreme 30MB/s UHS-1" 
SanDisk "Ultra 30MB/s UHS-1"
Transcend "Premium UHS-1 (dark blue card)"
Class 10 SD Cards and below. 
 
If anyone knows anymore cards suitable please post them, I'll be updating this list over time.  
 
Btw for me I've figured my average projects needs the A or B camera to be able to hold about 100 minutes of footage before I can dump them into a computer.  Since I mostly use DSLRs in 50Mbps I can get by with at least 42 minutes on $20 16GB cards, which cost me about $46 in cards to "run" one camera (I already have enough for 2 cameras; none of which are fast enough for the PocketCC) but my cost to run a PocketCC equally in 220Mbps with ProResHQ would be about $143 in cards.  So the PocketCC even in ProRes HQ is not a financially practical choice for A cam and barely B cam (for me) so I don't see myself using it as a "tool" anytime soon but I will love playing with it to learn and ready myself for a more "professional/studio" workflow with actual acquisition footage again :D  Once more fast/large capacity cards start coming out and prices come down (in what about a year? Ha, coincidentally that's then we expect to get our BMPCC lol) I think then it will be financially practical to run it (for me).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Adding to this and summarizing my personal assessment   Right now I use DSLRs and it cost me about $700 (cards, batteries, accessories and lens) to get each one up and running but to get the PocketCC to run at an equal level to replace one of my A or B cams is proving to be quite more expensive...
 
First I figured to get a PocketCC up and running with my work as an A cam or B cam would cost me about $150 in cards (since all of my current SD cards aren't fast enough).  
 
Second I would need to buy a new "ultra wide" lens as my 24mm will now be 70mm, I've narrowed my choices to either a $500 Tamron 17-50/2.8 VC (and hope a "smart" M4/3 to EF adapter comes out soon) or the $1300 Panasonic 12-35/2.8.
 
Third I would need more batteries, to last about 2 hours of on time I would need at least another n-20el battery which is around $50.
 
Fourth none of my LCD loupes fit a 3.5" 16:9 screen, the only one I found that covers 3.5" is the Varavon MultiView but it's $300 and huge! ...and ugly.
 
Fifth I might need a new "project storage system" since my current setup is meant for 100GB projects and this looks like those projects could potentially be at least 2.5x larger with the ProRes HQ option alone; which will likely be another $100.
 
So to incorporate it I'm likely looking at another $1,100 - $2,000, potentially the same cost range as adding a 6D or D600 or GH3 or NEX VG30 or D7100 if not more... but with the PocketCC it forces me to get ready for a "RAW/Low Compression" workflow which I think was Black Magic's point and not really a bad idea for me to do.
 
These numbers may not apply to everyone and of course you don't need to buy all this stuff with the purchase of a PocketCC, technically it will "work" with as little as a $13 SD card and a $100 lens, but that just makes this a suitable toy rather then a tool, which is perfectly fine if this is for a hobby or you're using it to learn on but if you need this to make you money prepare to spend a bit more than $995.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, exactly! That under $1000 isn't really that realistic.

Maybe external storage/monitors will come out to fit our budgets/needs - in the same way BM saw a whole in the cam market, perhaps others will do the same with recording/viewing solutions, maybe even BM themselves.

In any case we'll probably have the whole summer to think about it & save up the cash. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What DSLR shoots 1080 RAW for $700?


Yeah and for even only getting 8bit ProRes out of a (Nikon) Dslr you´ll need an external recorder and SSDs...
We have more options these days, but choosing the right setup and worklfow still is a Zelda quest...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, exactly! That under $1000 isn't really that realistic.

Maybe external storage/monitors will come out to fit our budgets/needs - in the same way BM saw a whole in the cam market, perhaps others will do the same with recording/viewing solutions, maybe even BM themselves.

In any case we'll probably have the whole summer to think about it & save up the cash. 

 

The good thing is that the PocketCC has a Micro HDMI port, which I think means it has HDMI 1.4 or later.

 

That supports up to a 16 bit signal, [email protected], [email protected] and even 3D [email protected];  the newest 1.4b even supports [email protected]  So we should have no trouble getting a completely uncompressed 1080p30 12bit signal as well.  But does it de-bayer the image for HDMI output?  Because that would mean it is no longer RAW.  Either way I still think internal ProRes and waiting for a cheaper card is the way to go. 

 

Also that 3D spec is interesting, doesn't Panasonic have a 3D MFT lens too?  I wonder how that works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The good thing is that the PocketCC has a Micro HDMI port, which I think means it has HDMI 1.4 or later.

 

That supports up to a 16 bit signal, [email protected], [email protected] and even 3D [email protected];  the newest 1.4b even supports [email protected]

 

So if BlackMagic gives us a recordable HDMI out (I think I heard the BMCC doesn't?) we should have no trouble getting a completely uncompressed 1080p30 12bit signal as well.  But I still think internal ProRes and waiting for a cheaper card is the way to go. 

 

Also that 3D spec is interesting, doesn't Panasonic have a 3D MFT lens too?  I wonder how that works.

Bm's shuttle will probably get an upgrade of some sort, it would be stupid not to supply something like Ninja2 in the near future - its not like they've given us recordable HDMI out for nothing.

They must have a long term plan, which will mean delivering a complete affordable workflow package that will cover the whole production process. And as you said, the BMPCC is the starter option that will get people to think about getting ready for future[proofing] a RAW workflow.

 

I'll start with SD cards & ProRes - hopefully 45mb/s will be fast enough & there's always deals on Amazon etc...to get you through the door. My only Sandisk Extreme Pro is out of date already, as they have doubled in speed since i got mine - they'll get faster & cheaper.

 

As far as lenses are concerned, i always shoot anamorphic & have never used a 35mm taking lens thus far (50-85mm are my favourites) so i won't have to buy much - i don't/won't buy lenses to fit a specific camera (its a future proofing investment thing). Also, i'm using a cropped sensor anyway, so i'm used to every focal length being longer & it hasn't been a problem - just move back a bit, take your time & think about/plan your shots more (should be doing the latter anyway, as its not only about how the shot looks, but how it works overall to your piece).

 

It's going to be fun & exciting - fingers crossed!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Third I would need more batteries, to last about 2 hours of on time I would need at least another n-20el battery which is around $50.
 
 

 

Those N-20el batteries cost about 4-6 dollars on ebay and a regular "china charger" cost about 5 dollars. Some unchipped batteries need a sepperate charger as was the case when I bought batteries for 5DMKII  in the days. Anyways the extra charger is handy to have when you need to charge multiple batteries in a rush. Allso you might need a US to EU powerplug adapter to go with your "china charger". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better forget the Speed Booster option for a bit (well unless BM don't ship on time!) & the EF version for ages...

 

A good option is to get something that's wide-ish with good resolution & step back a bit, or go anamorphic.

 

But really the best thing to do is to watch some films made with S16 & see what type of shot choices they make - you'll soon see what you can & can't do. Pretty sure most films don't go stupid wide v.often - mostly used for landscapes/establishing shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One recently popular example of Super 16 is the Walking Dead on AMC,  Cinematographer David Boyd said they choose Super 16 for the increased speed over 35mm and to give it a reality/documentary feel.  They also considered Digital but decided they wanted the s16 film's "texture" and grain, which are two things we wouldn't get out of the PocketCC but can easily be added in post.  

 

So far I've noticed when watching the show, the actors seem to have a lot of "walking/running around space", I assume with S16 you can keep the filming crew back out of the way while still getting a tight shot easier.  They also do a lot of what looks like outdoor on location scenes in daylight with a lot of running around, which I also assume is easier with the smaller S16 cameras.

 

Also I've noticed most Cine Prime sets (which are meant for "Super35"~28.2mm) typically range is 24mm-35mm-50mm-85mm which would give a similar view to an 12mm-17mm-24mm-40mm set on "Super 16"~14.3mm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These Cards are too slow:
SanDisk "Extreme 30MB/s UHS-1" 
SanDisk "Ultra 30MB/s UHS-1"
Transcend "Premium UHS-1 (dark blue card)"
Class 10 SD Cards and below. 

 

On this NAB video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg0VZWRy1NI, the Blackmagic rep mentioned Class 10 cards but he didn't mention the speed, so maybe 30MB/s cards might work for ProRes?

 

Edit.

Just looking on the BlackMagic site and they picture 45MB/s card so I guess you were right about them being too slow. It might be more worth while getting an external recorder? But then you'd be losing the RAW option right? Unless there's a RAW external recorder?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The peaking looks good, hope it's adjustable though, and hopefully BlackMagic will enable CinemaDNG on their external HDMI recorder.  

Or is the HDMI out no longer considered RAW?  I know it's uncompressed over HDMI but will it be 12bit 1080p30 and do they have to De-Bayer the signal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On this NAB video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg0VZWRy1NI, the Blackmagic rep mentioned Class 10 cards but he didn't mention the speed, so maybe 30MB/s cards might work for ProRes?

 

Interesting video. The first video I've seen of the BM Pocket Camera where someone actually does some testing for rolling shutter. In that quick test the rolling shutter surely looked minimal in that camera!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...