John Matthews

Well, I guess it's too late to get the ILS- sold out everywhere it seems! Who saw that coming?

Some interesting comparisons with WAY bigger and more expensive cameras are out there now.

Obviously YouTube footage. I wish he'd don it in 4k 24fps or 8k 24fps. To my eye, the GoPro is heavily dependent on lens. The Sony looks super digital to me, but maybe it's the fact it's at 60fps. Is it possible that the GoPro takes off some of that ultra digital look but leaves the detail? Maybe it's simply a sensor size thing?

The 4k 100fps is just crazy detailed and lots of latitude IMO (given it's an action cam). I've been experimenting by taking short bursts of 5s and finding just the right moment, focus, FOV. I wonder if others shoot like this. It works fairly well as a substitute for having to take actual photos. I know it's not a real photo camera, but it works great in a pinch and with some interesting features.

10 minutes ago, kye said:

I guess it's a tradeoff:

• The more your hands shake during filming the blurrier each frame will be (motion blur) and the more stabilisation that happens after that the more that there will be motion blur in the footage without the associated camera shake and it will just look like random blurring (like the lens AF was pulsing, etc)
• The longer the shutter the more motion blur there will be in each frame
• The higher the resolution of the final result the more visible the intermittent blurring will be (ie, it will be more visible if you sharpen the footage on a 4K timeline and it will be less visible if you apply lots of image softening and grain)
• The higher your standards the more sensitive you will be to random blurring and to shorter shutter speeds

For some people they're super sensitive to shutter angle, so are very intolerant to that.  If they are also sensitive to blur and are going to sharpen the footage and publish in 4K then they will have to hold the camera a lot steadier to meet their requirements.  
For people that don't care about shutter angle then just have super-short shutters and you'll have great results.
For people that want longer shutters but are going to soften the image a lot in post, or will be using much softer lenses, then they can afford to have shakier shooting because the random blurring will be far less visible.
For people that don't care about the motion in the image then they can be happy despite the fact that other people would be very unhappy.

In this sense it's impossible to know how you'll find something by just listening to other people.  Tonnes of people think that some of the modern Sony and Zeiss lenses are "soft" and I think they're completely insane, but that's just different taste.  In this case you probably have no idea how shaky your hands are compared to the next person, and there are no metrics that we can use to compare.

From my experience of OIS and how I shoot, I'd get FAR FAR sharper images from the GX800 than the ILS, because the amount of camera shake I would have is easily enough to make the frames blurry but less than most OIS lenses can compensate for.  In this sense it's not about the camera specs, it's about OIS vs not.

With the ILS, it's recommended to shoot at 1/200s or higher with a lens above 12mm (from what I hear). After, if you're bothered by the lack of blur, you can add it in post. At 12mm or wider, you can just follow the standard 180 degree shutter rule.

Regarding the GX800 and the ILS, they are different beasts, with the ILS producing far superior detail in RAW (from a 50MP) sensor as long as the SS is high enough and provided you actually nail focus. Lumix lenses are usually sharper too but usually not faster when it comes to lenses with OIS; the exception being the Leica and Lumix 42.5mm's. So, that higher shutter can be made up for with faster manual focus glass. There are other shortcomings with the GX800- not great 1080p, 4k for only 5 minutes (sometimes 2 and unpredictable), and disastrous audio. The colors are amazing in the GX800 though with way better customization for that. The G100D might be a more fair comparison to the ILS. It does offer a lot too (EVF, fllip out screen). However, the readout on the sensor makes it very limited IMO and the EIS-only is unusable in 4K... decent audio though. Still, that camera is far bigger and I think that's what the ILS is all about.

10 hours ago, kye said:

Depending on how much stabilisation is required and what your shutter angle is, it might be visible or might not.  I'd highly encourage you do some testing to work out if it will meet your quality requirements.  

I'm sure IBIS will do better. However, when I look at the footage up to 50mm, it looks decent if you have the right SS. You have to remember I'm replacing a GX800 (2017 tech). The ILS isn't really in the same league in terms of capabilities (especially audio and slow motion). Both cameras are better when using a tripod of any kind. The GX800 didn't have any IS other than optical in the lens and the video (even 4k) was more susceptible to moiré and aliasing. The ILS is effectively lighter with way better IS than the GX800- that's why I'd get it. I do like the Flip-up screen on the GX800, something I wish the S9 would have.

Here are some thoughts from someone who actually purchased the camera like me: 

Does anyone have experience with Gyroflow? I'm not certain, but I think you might need to shoot with the intention of using it as SS needs to be upped a little.

6 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

I can report the mission 1 and the mission 1 ils don't like older micros sd cards. They perform some sort of test when you turn the camera on. How old this card is anyone's guess but the gopro wants certain requirements met.

I know its an older card and other cameras i have dont flag any concerns. I mostly use it for timelapses as thats not so demanding, one picture every couple of seconds. However the latest gopro's, just refuse to use it. 

I did try settings with lower requirements like hd 24fps or even just stills, no joy 

I don't consider it an issue, more of an observation. I guess if you want 4k or 8k some requirements have to be met.  

 

So, I haven't had any issues with SanDisk Extreme V30 A2 cards. In fact, it's the one they recommend and sell with the ILS. I have noticed that I need to erase the card anytime I want to upgrade the Labs firmware with Mac OS, due to the DSstore hidden files.

I installed firmware 4 for the ILS. For photos, it's night and day- so much easier to use and far more responsive- almost like a real camera! This is going to be super fun I suspect. Now, we've got 50MP RAW or JPEGs and up to 20 at a time with no lockup.

9 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

As promised, here’s the video I mentioned over in the Narrative Films Shot in Uncontrolled Cities thread. I put together what I call my Mission Kit for the ILS, consisting of the Brightin Star 10mm fisheye, 7Artisans 10mm, TTArtisan 17mm, and the 7Artisans 25mm, 35mm and 50mm. The idea was to keep everything small, lightweight and affordable while still getting a very good image. The video is just a collection of footage shot with the different lenses, with each lens identified on screen. It’s not technical at all and it’s very casual. I’m just showing what these little lenses can do with the ILS. 

Yes. I saw your video on YouTube. We've got pretty much the same lenses, minus the 10mm fisheye and the 50mm. Today, there was new firmware (version 4). Also, I installed Labs; so, I'm curious to see the improvements, especially for photos as it was seriously lacking.

Went for a walk this morning. I was able to make a short video:

Sorry for the music. Everything is hand-held. Shot it at various frame rates. Most everthing shot in GoPro Log 2 (the slow-mo shots are in Natural) and plopped into a timeline for cutting and added FilmConvert with the GoPro Mission 1 Pro and GoPro Log 2 profile. No grain was applied. Anyway, you'll get an idea of the colors, electronic stab, etc.

I also wanted to say that I was able to update the ILS to the GoPro Labs firmware and use a QR code for putting a super-helpful histogram (better than the Lumix one on the GX800).

A few more thoughts on the ILS...

Here's a 4k shot of my balcony solar panels. I really thought I could make some moiré with this. Not the case, at least not in the 4:3 4k mode. Everything is hand-held with the E-stab on.

For DR in GoPro Log2, it seems to be living up to their claims 14 stops.

When it does clip, this is what it looks like:

Personally, I can live with this. I have a FilmConvert Hazy plugin to smoothen out some of that harshness on the clouds:

This was all done rather quickly and could have been better, I'm sure.

Here, I cranked up the shadows just to see what it would look like.

I might run it up against my S9 just because I'm curious.

Damn. After playing with the 7artisan 10mm, this camera looks so good. The electronic IBIS is working wonderfully and you don't hear any audio weirdness like with normal IBIS sometimes. The colors when you put the Log into FilmConvert are great IMO.

About the 10mm, it's not perfect. For starters, there was quite a bit of play in the mount. I fixed it with a little electrical tape. However, it's super easy to focus and quite fun. The image seems quite sharp too.

Here's what Mathieu Stern had to say about his experience:

1 hour ago, tupp said:

If this camera lacks a mechanical shutter, the Metabones BMPCC 0.64X speed booster is an obvious choice (as long as it doesn't hit the sensor filter).

Also, the excellent Meike M4/3 cinema line that bottoms-out at 8mm is worth consideration.  Meike has still versions of these lenses, but they seem to be the same price as the cinema versions.

I only wish this camera had a way to sync strobes.

Well, for rigging it, maybe. The camera is just so small and the mount isn't supposed to have more than a 250g lens on it. Those Meike lenses are 540g at a minimum.

And just to clarify, I really don't see the ILS as a photo-first camera, unless you're taking 8k screen grabs. The interface sucks for the most part too with only 2 physical buttons and a tiny LCD (albeit decent). You don't even get a histogram out of the box- they need to fix that.

2 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Very soft but cool none the less!

Yes. I had already seen that fotodiox video. Those lenses have had issue with softness in the past, but maybe someone solved the design. In addition, you've got the moon involved which only adds to the softness and atmosphere. I would assume the ILS does great under 200mm.

6 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

Thanks for your comments. I'm looking forward to mounting the ils to a fd 500mm mirror lens which will sit on a sky watcher mount for moon shots. i could add in a 2x teleconverter but i prefer a 1.4 converter. They just seem to have an edge to me. Which is something i don't have at the moment. 

I'm curious to know how that turns out. That kind of magnification requires near-perfect conditions for decent results.

I did a few more tests this morning. I wanted to check the 4K IQ, and I tried everything I could to induce moiré, but to no avail. I scrutinized the Red, Green, and Blue channels as well, and the results were impressive. I'm fairly certain it's due to the image processing because it blows away the already respectable 4K image from my Panasonic GX800.

And all of my tests were done with HyperSmooth on; it only gets better with it off.

I also tried my Konica 300mm f/4.5 on a tripod in 8K. I'm not sure there's much point in using 8K for distant landscapes, but for closer subjects, why not? I still think 4K looks just as good.

One thing this camera is not is a 1080p camera. IMO, they should let us use 10-bit in 1080p, but they don't. Also, when you switch to 1080p, it changes the color profile too. You have to go back and reset it when you resume shooting in 4K or 8K.

I think I'll just stay away from the 1080p modes unless I really need the 480fps and up.

4 hours ago, maxJ4380 said:

Good to know, i have gotten used to the peaking on the e-m1 iii. Occasionally  i can still mess it up however but most times it works ok and i have to add its not the camera, its me with my Goldilocks syndrome, it has to be just right...

I presume that if i use a fast aperture then the corresponding zone of focus is narrower too for the peaking and with a wider aperture then the peaking occurs across a wider zone of focus thats my thinking, although i cant say i have ever seen anything on youtube to confirm or deny that.

I'd say it's a similar experience to your Olympus (I've had many of those, too). I will say that the colors look rather strange on the back of the screen when using peaking. I start with the lens's distance scale, then confirm with peaking. If you need critical focus, use the double-tap method.

Of course, it all depends on your resolution. 8K is much harder than 4K. Shallow DOF can be achieved with this camera, but you will undoubtedly miss shots. Still, I prefer the simplicity of being intentional rather than fighting "AI" algorithms. It's far easier for me to live with screwing it up myself than having some engineer "imagine" what I'll be shooting 10000km away and program the computer to do it—and have it fail sometimes.

54 minutes ago, kye said:

How are you finding the 17mm F1.4?  Sharp enough wide open for you?

It seems sharp enough for me, easily resolving a 4k image. Remember, I'm only using the sweet spot of that lens. Others have notice vignetting, and corner softness- not the case when using just a fraction of the image circle. However, I notice back-lit subject will have a strong chromatic aberration (purple) at f/1.4, but it goes away at f/2.8. It flares a little too- a bonus for me. The usability is absolutely great though.

54 minutes ago, kye said:

Nice images.  Once you get files beyond a certain quality then the film emulation can do the rest.

Thanks. Yes, I really don't have too much time to fuss around with the files- make it look good to my eye and then off to the next one. I just do a few exposure adjustments.

54 minutes ago, kye said:

In terms of filter threads, you can get filter-thread-adapters in that size.  I bought a tiny vND for mine, which was really cheap because of the small amount of glass required!

I got a whole new set of ND filters. The reason being that I haven't had much luck by using VND's on small/pixel dense sensors. Bad things happened when I put my VND on my old camcorder. In the end, I'm going for 55mm and using step-up rings to get there. Why 55mm? Most of my Konica glass uses that with only a few exceptions. Anyway, I got the K&F Nano-x ND4, 8, 64, and 1000 set. They should do the job and still manage decent quality from a 50MP sensor.

I was only able to muster a few shots today. I'm actually not sure what I'm more impressed with: colors and look with log and FilmConvert Nitrate + Hazy; or, my MacBook Air's (M5) ability to cut through the footage and watch in realtime. Initially, I wasn't that impressed with the Natural or Vivid profiles, but the Log looks great to me with FilmConvert. I need to try more.

The ILS did very well with handheld shots at 17mm, given it's only electronic stab. I will have more lenses next week to try out. Unfortunately, I didn't have a ND of any type to test on this lens (who make a 40.5mm thread anyway? That's stupid). Anyway, next week, I'll have more stuff, including the media mod their new microphone kit. I know it sounds like I'm going all-in with GoPro, but I definitely think they're on to something. I'm quite impressed with the ecosystem too. No need to go through the anxiety in choosing between 5 different cameras either. You want wide- get the mission 1 pro or a Loawa lens.

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Love your thread and your posts! @John Matthews This camera looks exciting. I hope they get rid of the loud beep you have mentioned. The video above is awesome. Cinema verité style with both cameras. No endless blindness with dull gimbal hopping but framing and images to enjoy. No Matti Hoppola or Geraldo Undunino violet led backlit technews basements. I will need to read more about the ils if it allows an external evf, if hdmi is micro or  mini. Thanks for sharing your findings and for the video above.

Seriously, look at the ridiculousness of this. The JJC LCD hood fits perfectly on my S9. The LCD viewfinder is something I purchased with a used GH2 about 5 years ago. It fits perfectly on the ILS and doesn't really require anything else. That said, I find the LCD bright enough for daytime use. The viewfinder is really the only thing that would really help for focus.

1 hour ago, maxJ4380 said:

Any peaking available on the ils ? i read somewhere that gopro do some sort of glowy thing that supposed to help but thats all i know.

Yes. You can set it to one color or it dynamically decides a color (never seen that before). You'll need to have it on sensitive for it to mean much. I think there might be a steep learning curve if you're not used to manual focus though. I often prefer it. It slows me down and gives me something to do other than being intentional on framing.

I think this is more "normal" footage that you can shoot with this camera. I share this guys opinion on this release:

1 hour ago, maxJ4380 said:

the mission 1 ils seems to be more rare than a unicorn or hens teeth here in aus. i would buy 1 in a heartbeat. as i have the mission 1 pro already.

I got mine from GoPro France (probably EU fulfillment facility). I paid with Paypal. It shipped and arrived super fast. Apart from an annoyingly loud beep when you turn it on, the setup has been flawless. I'm surprised GoPro isn't in Australia. Or maybe it's the tariff BS? I wouldn't be surprised the ILS version gets sold out and quick. There's simply nothing like it on the market, being so small and light-weight. I can tell it's going to be a cult classic à la 5DII, GH2, and BMPCC OG (but for different reasons), especially if no one comes out with something similar for a long time. I'm not worried about the sale of GoPro as it always moves slowly.

6 hours ago, kye said:

I have the TTartisans 17/1.4 and it's small and light and cheap, but wide open it's more of a "character lens" rather than a sharp one.  It's good for emulating the softness of film in-camera, if you know what I mean!

I also have the 50mm 1.2 and it's a bit better than the 17mm IMHO, but neither of them are high-end glass.

I'm expecting some of this older Chinese glass to not be up to the crazy sharpness of the newer glass. For wide lenses, it's rather tricky with this camera. Sure, you could get the Laowa 6 or 7.5mm, but at that point, you might as well get another GoPro Mission 1 Pro, offering a second setup that is waterproof, etc. That's why I'm going more for the cheap stuff. I'll see this weekend if I can live with the softness of the 17mm f/1.4. Personally, I don't need the 1.4 unless in a pinch, but I'm secretly hoping that this lens can decently resolve 4k at 1.4 in the middle sweet spot of the lens. Anyway, I already have the S9 with the Laowa 28mm f/1.2 (my favorite lens of all-time). Two days ago, I was able to film a hedgehog eating at f/1.2 and 12000 ISO- the footage was so clean.

6 hours ago, kye said:

Share some images with us if you're able!

Will do this weekend. Super-busy right now with teaching high-schoolers English though. :-)

6 hours ago, kye said:

I agree about it being a new category, it sort of feels like that to me in a way too.

Cameras are all about combinations of features, and this one has some feature combinations that haven't really come together before.

I can recommend the Laowa 7.5mm F2, it's really sharp, but not cheap.  It's probably not the right choice now as there have been wider lenses brought out in recent times, but as a reference the Laowa is a great performer.

I'm really stoked about having smaller setups. Panasonic used to give us that in the past, but I think they've moved on; then they'll realize that had it right to begin with but it's too late (always late to the party). The whole setup with the 10, 17, and 25 with the body will be about 750g- that matters, especially considering the frame rates, codecs, and battery life.

After looking and foraging my various drawers in the house, I was able to find 3 Bell & Howell lenses from my grandfather: 0.7 inch, 1 inch, and 4 inch lenses. This was standard war-time military issue for war journalists.

I also found 3 plastic Lomography lenses:

I have ordered some inexpensive Chinese lenses too: 7Artisans 10mm f/3.5, TTartisan 17mmf/1.4, and TTartisan 25mm f2- a holy trinity for about 350 euros. From what I've heard, these lenses all suffer from poor corner performance; however, I'm throwing away 45% of that APS-C image anyway and only keeping the sharpest part. I figure those will be a perfect size too with the total kit under 1kg. I considered the Laowa cine lenses, but decided that they were simply too pricey for the concept of this kit. I'm bummed about not being able to use my AF M43 glass, but I love the limitations of straight up manual focus. I'll be shooting a lot with the 17mm this weekend.

The things that impress me most about this camera are the frame rates and processing. In addition, it’s so damn small and light. I purchased it, and it’ll be here tomorrow.

I’ve seen both super positive and super negative opinions about it, but it really does feel like a new category. I have a few assumptions about it, though: I think it will be a stellar performer when it comes to moiré and rolling shutter. It’s also going to be pricey to get wide, sharp lenses for it.

That’s why I plan on using it with my S9. I feel like they could complement each other well. I’ll definitely be playing around with it over the next few days.