Ki Rin

Pretty exciting cameras. 
I don't know much about the system. Is there a range of affordable lenses or are they all really pricey?

I read the section on color management in the resolve manual last night, and it seemed to be that CSTs are the preferred method over luts for this kind of thing. The reasoning being that CSTs are non-destructive so you can still get any data thats out of bounds (provided it wasn't clipped in the original footage). 

At least that was my understanding.

Color is incredibly complcated, and I can't say I understand it well. 
I'll see how I go with the approach I outlined above, and report back. 

1 hour ago, kye said:

I shoot HDR for the DR too and tried to find a conversion for it, but couldn't find one either.

I did an experiment where I shot two clips, one with a SS that gave a normal exposure and one with a SS twice as long, so the second clip would be brighter by one stop.  I then tried to convert from <insert gamma profile here> to Linear, brightened the clip by a stop, then converted back from Linear to <insert gamma profile here>.  In theory if I picked the right profile then that transformation should make the first clip identical to the second one, but I tried all the profiles I could find and nothing matched.  I figured that if neither rec2020 or rec2100 matched the gamma of HLG then likely that the colour space wouldn't be an exact match either.

So no, it's not 'correct', but with grading if it looks good then it is good, so if it's working for you then go for it  

If you get a chance, try the workflow I outlined in the previous post. It's actually really easy, and so far seems to be working well. 

As for shooting, I have found that it's really important to have zebras turned on, and also glance at the histogram from time to time to get the exposure right. You can't really trust what you see on the monitor in HLG. 
I basically made sure I was ETTR just under the point where zebras would show up. Doing that makes the clips "look" over-exposed, but all that data is there and when you set the color space, shifts back to a normal exposure. 

Thanks for the replies guys. Based on some of the suggestions above, and reading the manual, I think I've come up with a workflow that works pretty well for me.

For anyone who is interested, the key steps are:
1) In project settings, use Davinci Color Managed. Set input, timeline, output to rec 709. Set "Timeline to Output Tone Mapping" to Luminance Mapping.
2) In media page, select all the GH5 clips, right click and set "input color space" to "rec 2020 Gamma 2.4".
3) Leave the other camera clips (in my case sony cine2 files) to the default project settings (rec 709).
4) Edit and grade as normal.

This way I get a decent starting point for the GH5 HLG clips, and I can actually see them properly while editing. And doing it this way instead of messing with luts, it seems like I don't lose any data, so I am able to recover highlights etc.

From my initial tests, this seems like it will work for my needs, and is the most simple and painless process I could find.

Of course, its still a bit of a pain to match the 2 cameras, but there's no way around that with the equipment I have, and on the bright side, its a good chance to practice my color correcting skills 


Just to re-iterate, I'm not delivering HDR. The only reason I am shooting in HLG is for the added dynamic range. I just didn't know how to get the footage to not look horrible since it is basically log footage, but there didn't seem to be a lut or color space specific to the GH5 HLG.
I'm still not sure if what I'm doing is "correct", but it seems to work for me, so I'm moving forward until I learn a better way.

2 hours ago, stephen said:

PS. As video shows method 3 is usable only if you shoot with Log profile or RAW. Only is this case Davinci Resolve will know how to interpret correctly the colors. For Panasonic cameras those would be V-Log and HLG and for Sony S-Log2, S-Log3(to avoid) and HLG (best). If your Sony camera doesn't support HLG, then only option would be standard S-Log2/S.Gammut Picture Profile. Or some kind of hybrid profile where Color Mode is S.Gammut and gamma is Cine2 or Cine4. But you'll have to experiment. Have no idea how footage will look and in Resolve there is no value that corresponds to Cine2 or Cine4 gamma. You'll have to try several options for input Gamma. Not sure how this will work. 

For Panasonic Color Space transform for GH5 with HLG will look like these in Resolve

Input Color Space: Rec2020
Input Gamma: Rec.2100 HLG

Output Color Space: REC709
Output Gamma: REC709

Tone Mapping : Luminance Mapping

For Sony S-Log2 picture profile it would be:

Input Color Space: Sony S.Gammut
Input Gamma: Sony S-Log2

Output Color Space: REC709
Output Gamma: REC709

Tone Mapping : Luminance Mapping

Sometimes I play with output gamma. Can use Gamma 2.2 or Gamma 2.0 instead of REC709. Default for Resolve is Gamma 2.4

If you can use X-Rite Color Chart during the shoots you will be golden. Color matching footage from the 2 cameras will be really easy.

Yes, I've been debating the color chart, but it seems very expensive for what it is. 

Anyway, I will try your suggestions first and see how it goes. 

1 hour ago, stephen said:

It's a very interesting question. There are 3 methods how to approach the task and those 3 methods are actually different ways to structure your color correcting/grading workflow in Resolve. 

Color matching two different cameras has 2 steps:
    1. Correctly interpret colors in Resolve for each camera.
    2. Color match them if there are differences.

Hint. If the first step is done correctly you will have very little to no work on the second one. There are plenty of videos on youtube but all they go straight to the second one missing the crucial first step. One or more cameras most people don't know how to do correctly step one. That was my case until recently. 

Method 1: LUTs and more specifically Leeming LUTs PRO. 
If you shoot with each camera with the settings given by the author and then apply the corrective LUTs in Resolve for each camera you will get correct colors from both cameras. They should look the same. Panasonic GH5 and Sony A7 series are supported. 

Tried this on BMPCC 4K and Sony A7 III and it works reasonably well. But not always and setting the cameras each time correctly require some work and attention. 
https://www.leeminglutpro.com/ 

Few professional colorists publishing tutorials on youtube advise against LUTs for color correction. 

Method 2: ACES 

 

Used ACES method in the past to work with Sony S-Log 2 video and results were great. 

Method 3 - Color Space Transform effect in Resolve. This one was game changer for me and the method currently use as a first step for color grading/correction. Including when footage is from different cameras. My productivity in Resolve jumped at least two times and results are great. Wish I new this before ! The best video which explains the method and probably the most important part of color correction in Resolve is unfortunately in Russian. But you still will be able to pick up the principles and settings for both cameras. This guy is a ex professional colorist. Never seen anybody with tutorials on youtube explain the theory and practice so logically and simply

Apart of the color space transform values for input and output color space and gamma, you should also set Tone Mapping to Luminance Mapping.  That's very important. 

Once the color space transform is done on one clip do a stills grab and then apply it on all clips from the camera with few clicks. Same process for the clips of the other camera(s)

All 3 methods require to be well aware what picture profile you used during the shoot. For Sony Cameras this colorist advise to use HLG. If you don't have HLG then you should use color profiles or create your own color profiles having Color Mode setting = SGammut. Because it is not clear what color space are Sony PP with Color Mode = Cinema, Pro, Movie. 

Hope this helps. 
 

Thank you! That was a very informative post! 
I wish I could watch the video, but I don't understand any russian unfortunately. 

Method 3 suits me the best, but I'm having trouble finding out what my input should be with my current PP settings on the sony. Its the a7rii so no HLG unfortunately. As you suggest, I should try with the s-gamut setting and see if that gives me a good starting point. I'll try that tomorrow and see how I go. Thanks again. 

7 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

In the color page of resolve, you can apply a Color Space Transform (commonly called a CST) to a node on a clip-by-clip basis (Instead of to the entire project)

So you can apply an HLG to Rec 709 CST to all of the clips you shot on the GH5 in HLG.

You can also use an CST to transform any of your Sony clips in to Rec 709.

Thank you. That sounds like what I need. I just tried it, but unsure what to choose as the input color space. For the HLG footage I'm guessing rec 2020. I tried it and it does look better for the gh5 footage. 

For the sony, no idea what I should choose as the input. I'm not shooting s-log, but rather a PP based on cine2 gamma. 

9 hours ago, funkyou86 said:

Please upload a framegrab so we try.

Thank you, I wll try to up one later

1 hour ago, buggz said:

I am still using the following method, I think I got this information from dvxuser forum:

"You can use HLG natively with Resolve for Rec 709 delivery:
- In Project Settings, under Color Management, Change to Davinci Color Managed
- Under Color Management select:
-- Rec 2020 HLG ARIB STD-B67 for Input Color Space
-- Rec 2020 HLG ARIB STD-B67 for Timeline Color Space
-- Rec 709 HLG ARIB STD-B67 for Output Color Space"

 

Unfortunately, since I am also using a Sony camera and need to match shots, that workflow wont for me. 

I'm having a bit of trouble color correcting HLG footage from the GH5 in Davinci Resolve. Especially getting skin tones looking natural, and matching other footage. 

I'm not sure what my project color settings should be... I've tried experimenting by changing input gamma to HLG, which does seem to provide more pleasing color results, but puts the exposure way off.  
However, changing the input color space isn't really an option for me, since I am also editing footage from the sony a7rii, which does not support HLG. 

Can anyone give me some advice on how I can get the HLG footage looking more neutral and match it with the sony footage? 

40 minute non-removable battery could be a bit of a deal killer though.. 

Everything else looks great.

https://www.kandaovr.com/qoocam-8k/

This could be it. 

8K.

1/1.7-inch sensor

10-bit video.

12-bit stills. 

I'm more interested to see what their new 360 camera will be like. 

Nice work! 

May I ask, with a project like this, how much of it is planned? 

I imagine it is pretty hard to plan a lot of it since you don't have that much control over what you will find at each location, but on the other hand, it seemed like some of the shots were deliberately planned out to lead into the next one. 
I'd love to hear more about this process. 

Thank you, something like that looks like it would help a lot. 

I'll try and pick one up. Or maybe even make one. 

Hi guys, I don't have much experience recording audio, and am having trouble getting clean sound. 

I've tried using an on camera Takstar SGC-598, and it sounds good, but I'm getting a lot of boomy sounds when I'm moving with the camera. I also tried mounting the Zoom H1 on camera and got the same problem. Is that because these mics don't have proper shock mounts on them? 
Is there anything I can do to get cleaner sound with the equipment I have? 
I also tried removing low end in post, but it only helped marginally. 

I got the A7RII when it was pretty new. I guess that was about 3 years ago now? 

It made, and I guess still makes sense for me, because I do a lot of photography as well. If I were choosing a camera only for video, or buying today... it probably wouldn't be my first choice. But I mean, it still takes decent video. And the 42mp is nice for still photography. 

There are a lot of nice cameras out there now, but I haven't really felt the need to upgrade yet. And I can't afford it anyway.

I should probably write this on a blog,. but since I don’t have one (yet),  I thought I would try to document my recent experience putting a video together.  Hopefully it might provide some usefulness to other beginners getting started.  

This is the first project I’ve done which I feel came out -roughly- how I imagined it. Although there are still a LOT of problems with the footage and end result is far from perfect! It was a great learning experience, and I was able to experiment with a lot of techniques. 

Type of video: Dance / Music Video

->

Technical Details:

Camera:  Sony A7RII

Lenses: 16-35 f4, 28mm f2, 55mm f1.8

Lighting: Street lights, and Yongnuo YN360 Light Wand RGB for fill on some shots. 

Location: Osaka, Japan. 

Editing and Post: Davinci Resolve 

Budget: $0

Main Challenges:

• Biggest challenge was probably finding locations with enough available light. I didn’t really have the budget or space to set up lighting, and we were shooting in the middle of the night in the middle of winter. 
• I had a lot of trouble getting shots to stay in focus, largely due to my own inexperience. 

 Things I learned:

• An external monitor for checking focus is essential. I bought one straight after this project once I realized how many shots were out of focus. 
• The autofocus on the A7RII is too unreliable with a subject moving like this. I should have just stuck to manual focus. 
• Doing everything solo is really hard. I would have loved to have an assistant, especially for help with  lighting. 
• I need to learn a lot more about visual effects in post. I mostly just messed with layered footages and blend modes for this.. But I wish I had the knowledge to do more interesting effects. 
• Using different shutter speeds / angles can be very interesting. I experimented a lot with both high shutter speeds to add stress and tension in some shots, and also with slow shutter speeds to add extreme motion blurring for specific shots to match the music. Getting the right shutter speed for the effect I wanted was tough though. Going too slow became a mess, but if it wasn’t slow enough the effect was too subtle. 
• Planning is important. But so is having the flexibility to scrap a plan when see something and go with it on the spot. 
• Color grading is hard and confusing. I need a lot more practice. 
• Getting good exposure / dynamic range is way more challenging in video (I’m more familiar with photography). I ended up with a lot of blown highlights and crushed blacks. I would love some tips on how I can increase dynamic range or avoid under/overexposing. 
• I’m still really unsure what settings I should be using on the A7RII. Especially for color accuracy and dynamic range. 

That’s about all I can think of. Questions are welcome. As is any feedback or advice anyone has. I know it’s far from professional work, but I had a lot of fun on this project and am looking forward to improving my skills in the future. 

Thanks for watching & reading!

This was pretty funny

I was hoping this system would replace sony for me, since I really dislike the ergonomics and menus on sonys. But although the cameras look more than capable (on paper anyway), the size/weight/cost kind of kills it for me. 

Hopefully they might bring out some slimmed down lighter versions like they did with m43 later on. And Sigma might be able to release some cheaper if not smaller lenses. 

Looks like it will be a great system for some people, but unfortunately I think I will have to stick with sony for now. 

The system looks like it is going to be quite heavy and expensive. 

50 mm F 1.4
Weight: 955 g
around $3,000

24 – 105 mm F4 Macro OIS
Weight: 680 g
around $1,700

70-200 mm F4 OIS
Weight: 985 g
around $2,300

Nice updates, but Its a bit disappointing they don't seem to be updating their 2nd gen products anymore. 

I'm having a bit of trouble finding consistent and reliable AF settings on my A7RII. And I am also quite confused by seeming idiosyncrasies between what AF modes can be used, and the function of various AF settings. 

In the Movie mode, things like Eye-AF do not work (I get a message about being unavailable in manual mode settings). However, with the dial set to custom, but the same manual settings applied, I seem to be able to use Eye-AF, as well as several other AF modes, that don't seem to be available in movie mode. On the other hand, things like framing guides do NOT show up in custom modes (but DO show up in movie mode).... 

Additionally, things like AF/MF Hold set to a custom button, seem to work only if MF is first set through the menu system, but will NOT work if set through a custom AF/MF toggle. 

All these little things, are causing me a lot of confusion when it comes to shooting video with the A7RII. I feel like all the AF settings on this camera are very confusing and full of caveats and workarounds. 
However, I have seen people praise the Sony AF as being quite good. So I'm wondering if anyone here can give me some advice on what settings are best to use for video AF. Especially for rapidly moving subjects. 

I've been experimenting with various modes, but am getting a lot of focus hunting and / or breathing, and don't feel very confident that my shots will be in focus. 

Any thought or advice on what settings  or modes work fairly reliably for video C-AF on sony a7rii? 

40 minutes ago, thephoenix said:

first it depends on what camera you have, the follow focus on gimball doesn't work with all brands

I'm using a Sony A7RII and GH5. But I was under the impression I could use it as a manual system attached to the lens. 

I want to buy my first gimbal, and I'm wondering if the focus dials that some of the new ones (crane 2, moza 2, weebill lab) have are actually practical and useful. Having never used one, I can't really judge this for myself unfortunately. 

So is there anyone here who has used the focus dials on the newer gimbals, and do you think they actually work well and are essential?

If not, I might as well save some money and get an older gimbal without it, since that seems to be the major improvement as far as I can tell. 

Thanks a lot for your advice! 

12 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I have the lilliput a5. For the price, it is excellent. I can use it in bright sunlight, it has peaking and false color, and was cheap even brand new. It has mounting points on three sides, and runs off 9v power from the same brick that powers my camera. The color is NOT accurate. If you want to judge color on your external monitor, you will need to spend more money. But if you mainly want a monitor it for flexibility and focusing, I highly recommend the a5. The main problem with it is it only had one customizable button.

I previously owned a 7" feelworld and a 3.5" feelworld evf. Both were inferior to the lilliput. The 7" was just too big and heavy, it really dwarfed my rig. The evf was just bad in every way. My impression is the new feelworld monitors are better than the ones i had, probably on par with the a5 for the similarly priced ones.

I have used some smallhd monitors briefly. They are certainly better build quality. I cant say they would be worth 5x the cost to me, since i have never broken any of my cheap gear and i have no need of great color accuracy on set. Your needs may differ of course.

Do you feel that 5 inch is big enough to judge focus and composition? 
I'm also looking to get my first monitor, and wondering what size is best.