Vesku

If you buy a  4k TV for  a monitor I think it must be IPS panel because other panels has very narrow viewing angle. When watching very close the edges dim and colors distort in other than IPS panel.

I started to wonder the idynamic and I made some tests again. Idynamic adds noise to darks and should be used with care. It is best when wanting the lighter result unedited.

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Exactly where do you see more DR (which seems like the purpose of a flat profile)? Highlight spectacles on the car? More detail under the car? More detail in the grass?

If you're shooting the GH4, why don't you get a proper flat profile like V-log?

This example is not for dynamic range. The scene has no extreme contrast. I wanted to show that iDynamic high is not making much more noise or other bad things at iso200.

(Still if you measure light and dark tones the iDynamic version is flatter)

As I have said I use iDynamic for getting flatter or lighter blacks from camera unedited. V-log has issues and it needs editing.

Idynamic underexposes 1/3 stop. Sensor gets less light. It is noisier than without it. It gets more stuff in highlights and lifts shadows. In iso 200 image is flatter and still clean. Here is what iDynamic high makes in iso200 when using JPG photos with GH4. I made a very heavy midtone curve to lighten images. 

4k video behaves quite the same as JPG photos with center crop.

Idynamic high is too extreme. I use normally low and standard for extreme scenes, not high.

I think my GH4 records little more dynamic range and color information than GX85. Does the GX85 has 0-255 luminance range?

Video has no red channel. It records YUV which means it records one luminance channel and two coordinates of color. Editor or player makes then RGB channels according some rules. The result we see is red, green and blue channel.

How idynamic can clip more when it makes image flatter.

iDynamic works so that in the same exposure numbers (A,ss,iso) it somehow reduces exposure 1/3 stop and then lightens dark tones. I dont know how it does it when using iso200. Maybe it is using iso 160? The video exif does not tell. Exif shows iso200 and used aperture and ss. The result may be about the same when manually using -1/3 EV and then lifting shadows in post. Idynamic makes this before camera compression (like editing from RAW) so I think it should be better than editing a compressed h.264 file in post.

It is at least easier to get a flatter looking video straight from camera without editing.

By the way idynamic even underexposes RAW photos 1/3 EV compared to what camera meter shows. So if you have forgotten idynamic ON and shoot RAW photos the results are darker than you want.

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Do you mean to say it works better when there's enough light for ISO 200... or is it better in combination with an outside WB... or both? It's true that the lx100 video posted above was at ISO 800, not 200 and it had clearly less detail on the green blanket. Again, more testing/posts are needed.

Noise increases already above iso 400 with default settings. If using iDynamic it digs more noise from shadows. At iso200 the video is so clean that a little increase in noise is not visible. Of course iso200 needs more light...

Idynamic works best outdoors at iso200. It increases noise if used with high iso. If the scene has no hard contrast iDynamic off may be better.

iDynamic gives more dynamic range in Panasonic cameras.

45 minutes ago, Policar said:

....because of the perceived arrogance, and I won't be posting here anymore.

Dont quit. I have red your writings with great interest. I will buy a HDR TV sooner or later and I want to make HDR videos and photos. We can together think what is the best and reasonable workflow for us consumers. I think it needs a better camera than current consumer models. 10bit HEVC is also kind of tricky with current editors and computers. We need also a new 10bit or better photo standard. 16bit TIF is an overkill.

The HDR is very new and the standards are competing. Many HDR bluray movies are made from Alexa 2.7k source material or even from 2k final edits. I think they make special effects like sunsets or shiny things artificially because the original material has not enough "power". It is also easy to add computer graphics to enhance HDR.

The 10bit HDR HEVC file is rendered with the rec2020 profile or gamut. The 2020 is a very wide gamut and no TV can show the extreme colors it has. The best TVs can show about 80% of rec2020 and 98% of DCI-P3 which is the current cinema projection standard. No standard says that the HDR must use all of the rec2020 colors. Rec2020 is just a container. Maybe some day HDR can show all of the rec2020.

The GH4 can shoot about 12 stops of dynamic range but nothing tells how vibrant colors it can capture. When using GH4 10bit V-log it gives only about 650 levels of 1024 possible because V-log L compresses heavily the possible range to match professional V-log cameras. So it is like a 9 bit video. Here is more about GH4 V-log-L:

http://www.provideocoalition.com/v-log-l-on-the-gh4-don-t-panic/

The professional cameras has much better sensors and they record 4:4:4 12bit or even 16bit RAW video. When grading the final HDR video for rec2020 container the possibilities are much finer and better. The camera records very fine gradients and can capture very wide color range. The normal life seldom contains very vibrant colors so the colorist may want to enhance colors to get HDR impact. 

Does your camera show exposure values and iso when using any mode. A, S, M, Tv, Av, P, auto iso (IN VIDEO). My GH4 dont show and it makes adjusting exposure guessing.

Please dont suggest that use full manual because I have no interest, time and skill to use M. I dont take photos either with full manual but I still want to know what my exposure is.

Try turning NR down or off. It help with my GH4. The fine noise remains but the smearing and blotches goes away.

Is it true that people dont want to know what exposure values and iso the camera uses in automatic modes?

When I am taking photos I am interested what shutter speeds the camera chooses in A-mode or what is the current auto iso value. Why the camera is not telling those things in video mode??

I think this HDR stuff is too new for most people today. I tried to open a talk about 10bit videos a year ago but it had almost no interest. Lets enjoy rec709 or watch HDR movies if possible.

Most people dont even see the benefits of 4k.

Is this a common standard that exposure values are not visible in video cameras?

If the photo camera would not show exposure values it would be a clear fault. 

The 15 stops source dynamic range rules out consumer HDR production. 10bit videos can be still nice with GH4 or BMPCC and proper display. 

Is it true that this Canon XC10 video camera is not showing exposure values and iso when shooting using other than full manual exposure?

Panasonic cameras wont show exposure values with auto exposure modes. I think that Canon DSRLs shows always what iso, aperture and shutter speed it is using.

Exposure info should be ALWAYS visible.

22 minutes ago, markr041 said:

there is one way, and only one way - using the new $69 Google Chromecast Ultra. It will stream YouTube HDR videos in HDR.

It is not true HDR unless you have a 10bit graphics card and a 10bit HDR standard monitor or TV. How do you say to monitor that now comes HDR material? The display must have a HDR setting.

1 hour ago, Axel said:

How do you watch HDR videos?  There is a big TV showroom in my city.

I think this is the situation for most people today.

1 hour ago, Axel said:

The question what was more important, 4k or HDR, could be misleading. It should read, if it's UHD it should be HDR as well ...

And: come on, this thread was read 620 times, but only 21 contributors to the poll? No wonder demographic studies don't work anymore!

The poll must have at least one option more:  *I am interested and following the development. YES

HDR needs 1000 nits monitor or TV and 10 bit videos. Not many has equipment to produce or watch such videos. A very good non-HDR 10bit 60P UHD is very impressive too with a large gamut/high contrast TV.

7 hours ago, markr041 said:

Here is my first true YouTube-compliant 4K HDR (10bit, 4:2:2 REC2020 12-stop) video. You will see it translated to SDR (REC709) if you have an SDR viewing device; and HDR if you can watch in HDR:

Panasonic GH4 10bit 4:2:2 to Shogun Inferno, graded in resolve 12.5 in HDR. Output as DNxHR 444 12bit, with injected HDR metadata.

 

How do you watch your HDR test? Can you see the benefits?

I use my GH4 camera and Panasonic 4k TV like a poor mans HDR. I shoot  with a flat profile and then darken midtones in TV/player/graphics card. I set my TV  brightness and contrast both at 100% and high gamut color on. The result is very bright image if the video has bright spots or bright whites. I expose so that normally there is headroom in whites, only what shines in real life shines in camera. I dont do ETTR if the scene has dim light. Cloudy days are dark and sunny days are very bright etc. 

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Does anyone know why Panasonic has limited its shutter speed to 1/30 in video mode? Here's an interesting video I picked up today... a lot of it was review for me, but I learned one or two things from it that made me rethink how I shoot.

 

Panasonic cameras let you shoot video down to 1/2s shutter speed. You must use M-mode and manual focus. 

Better would be if the camera would automatically go to "slow SS mode" without the need of setting everything to manual.