blondini

23 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

 

True! That is why Andrew compared  a 17.5mm f0.95 to a 35mm f2.0. Halving the focal length requires an extra two f-stops wider aperture for equivalent depth of field.

Except I'm not talking about a generic calculation of equivalent depth of field per se. My question is whether, using the 17mm lens on a mtf sensor, it is even possible to film a subject at, say, 15 meters and still differentiate them from the infinity plane as you could with a 35mm lens. I'm just looking at a few barrel markings on some lenses I own, a 20mm which hits infinity just beyond 4 meters, and a 35mm lens which hits infinity past 30 meters. 

 

17 hours ago, blondini said:

Ah cool, thanks for this. It was a piece of misinformation that an older DoP passed on to me and I've held on to for a while now. But you've explained this very well. I think its the way I use different focal lengths that has helped hard wired in this instinct. And it's actually and instinct of proximity rather than focal length.

Another thing that occurred to me regarding this is the physical qualities of lenses of different focal lengths. One of the things that distinguishes wide from telephoto lenses is their focusing characteristics. Wide lenses focus closer and hit infinitely sooner. A 17mm lens is likely to be at infinity by 3 or 4 meters, where as a 50 might still separate the infinity from a subject at 20 or 30 meters. This is not strictly an issue of perspective, but it is a focal-length-dependent characteristic of rendering space. I have no experience of using short focal length lenses designed specifically for MTF sensors, but I would presume that those physical characteristics still hold true? Hence a 17mm on and crop sensor is not truly equivalent to a full frame 35mm and so on, because they do not focus through space in an equivalent way.

Or maybe I'm just suffering an esoteric crisis because I'm some kind of flat earther.

On 5/20/2018 at 4:18 AM, KnightsFan said:

@blondini No, perspective distortion is only affected by distance from the camera to the subject. No matter what sensor/lens combination you use, if the camera and the subjects don't move, then the ratio of the size of two subjects will remain the same. I did a quick and dirty test to illustrate. It's a little imprecise (the camcorder would NOT focus on the guy in front...)

For all three images the camera is in the same place. I suspect the small discrepancies in ratio (2.2% error) are mainly due to moving parts inside the camcorder when it zooms, which changes its actual distance from the subject. But this is an easy thing to test yourself.

First image is a 4mm lens on a 1/4 type sensor

Second image is a 55mm lens on an APS-C sensor

As you can see, the ratio of the figures is the same. You could even use a wider lens and the ratio remains, because the distance has not changed:

Third image is a 2mm lens on the 1/4 type sensor.

 

Quote from Wikipedia:

 

 

 

Yes, it would. As long as the camera is in the same place, the relative size of the plane compared to the people will remain the same regardless of the lens or sensor. If you don't believe me or my Legos, go try it yourself!

Ah cool, thanks for this. It was a piece of misinformation that an older DoP passed on to me and I've held on to for a while now. But you've explained this very well. I think its the way I use different focal lengths that has helped hard wired in this instinct. And it's actually and instinct of proximity rather than focal length.

On 5/18/2018 at 9:21 AM, Don Kotlos said:

Yep, perspective is only affected by the distance of the objects to the lens. The focal length & sensor size do not affect perspective in any way. A 25mm on a m4/3 sensor with an aperture of f/1.4 will have the same perspective and DoF as the 50mm on a FF sensor with an aperture of f/2.8. The other aspects of the image like distortion or busyness of the bokeh depend on the design of the lens and not the focal length/aperture/sensor size. 

I disagree about this. From what I understand, a 17mm lens is always a 17mm lens, even if it's fast and you crop it's field of view to correspond to the same field of view and DoF as a full frame 35mm lens. The way the lens renders perspective is still like a 17mm lens, which is a result of its focal length, not the field of view or the DoF. That's my understanding and I always feel that when I swap between shooting on my full frame 5D and, say an Arri (Super 35 sensor). By that I mean, a 32 or 35mm lens on an arri never truly feels the way a 50mm on my 5d does. A 50 on the arri feels like a 50 even though the field of view is different than my 5d (more like a 75 -80mm). It renders space flatter, focus falls off quickly in the way a 50 does. Different fields of view or DoF achieved with different sized sensors doesn't change the way a 50mm lens renders perspective. As I understand it.

I think the photos Andrew posted show that. The full frame shot has a steeper drop away from focus, the background has more blur (the buttons on the fax machine in the BG are a good place to look, or the text on the magazine). The full frame picture feels flatter. Even though each lens/sensor setup have corresponding depths of field.

3 hours ago, Orangenz said:

Actually I wasn't referring to her being in every shot (and making every shot consequently that much better) but simply that Bondini regarding "Neumann Films" as just a man is actually the sexist part, not Panasonic. It jumps on the SJW train and disrespects both the quality of work involved in all the promos, and the actual people involved (like M) 

I never said anything about Neumann Films being a man. But "Luke Neumann Filmmaker/Neumann Films" is a man, as he is credited in the promo about 4 dudes with cameras. That's an incontrovertible fact, so stop making up stuff and show me your cute buns already.

Thanks Panasonic for finding 4 dudes for your promo video. I guess girls don't know how to use cameras.

4K smoke and mirrors. And XAVC s-log is the emperors new codec.

I remember having an argument a few years ago late in a bar about how film would never be suplanted by digital. I said: just look at Once Upon a Time in Anatolia if you don't believe me. The next day I checked and discovered it was shot on the F35. 

 

I also want to like this new generation of Sony cameras. Ever since magic lantern blew the lid off canon DSLRs by enabling RAW, I've been expecting an HD/2K camera to come along that offers similar quality in proper shape at a decent price. Instead its all 4K smoke and mirrors, delivered with flaky, pain in the ass codecs.

Well, I've not even had good experiences with Sony's form factor and ergonomics... I found the F5 plain awful to use. It has a million pointless buttons on it that I just wanted to go away, and trying to navigate the menus for things that I actually needed was just nightmarish... nothing about that camera justifies the price. And the bottom line should be the pictures. Spend 5K on a pro camera - the pictures should look better than on a consumer camera a quarter the price. I just don't see that right now at all. 

I wonder how much the recent space race for 4K+ resolutions has actually derailed absolute image quality. 

They're both beautiful! See, I knew you could do it. 

um... my opinion? this is a forum right? Or is this big dicks club and now I have to show you mine? 

I don't like any of the pictures I've seen come out of this camera. But I'm sure we'll see a lot of test videos from very happy owners who love the specs sheet. 

Thats my opinion.  Pictures are subjective things. They are like seaweed being pushed and pulled in the ocean of peoples preferences and prejudices. I don't care about the specs or even the resolution really. But I care about pictures... I guess in a more esoteric sense. If I was buying a camera to shoot a movie on, I would pick something else. A camera that can reproduce colours, that creates rich, immersive images. The stuff I've seen from this camera looks like flat video with colours like puke.

But maybe you'll figure out how to bend it right to get some good results with it, you're a clever guy. Enjoy your camera and I look forward to seeing how you get on with it.

 

 

 

has sony finally made the ultimate vimeo camera test camera? I can't wait to see lots of slow motion shots of grass blowing in the wind or some drab english beach, set to some pirated music. Meanwhile, trying to assess this as a filmmaking camera: all the footage I've seen looks horrible.

Sorry I'm confused... has Nikon Hacker enabled RAW video? I followed the link and saw 11 frames that were a mess of artefact and errors. How is that video?

 

I shot on film for a few years when I started out. I've shot on a variety of video formats for quite a few years. I'd definitely choose to shoot celluloid if I could on my next film. I worked differently on film. It made me think differently about how to approach what I'm doing. I think shooting on digital has taught me heaps of bad habits, to be sloppy, and not value the moments I shoot. 

And that quote from Andrew Wondlan regarding Kodak Vision 2 could be equally applied the progress of HD/4K and the pursuit of more pixels and dynamic range. I don't give a ****. GH4 looks like garbage no matter how many pixels it has, and I have never felt my pulse quicken when I look at it. I remember the first time I saw 4K projected, at a test screening of King Kong in Auckland. it made me feel sick. I feared for the future because I doubted that a beautiful film would ever be made on 4K. Nothing has changed my mind. So yeah, cheer for the democracy of digital. But I'll shed a tear for the beautiful films that made me want to pick up camera in the first place.

I'm definitely addicted to lenses... and this lens has had me fascinated for a while. I really don't think you're going to get one for 60 bucks though. This lens is a legend to Pentax users (they still exist). The last one I saw go on eBay went for nearly as much as a Hollywood.

 

The 'M' series ones go for less, but they are a completely different formula with no floating element. Like all the M series lenses, it was optimised for compactness and handling (and probably cheapness) rather than outright performance.

 

There's a K28/2 in a camera store in Berlin that I stop in and visit now and again. I put it on my 5D body once and it made me feel all gooey. Its got a €600 price tag so not such a secret what a good lens it is.

Hi!

I'm new...

is there a marketplace section in this forum? if there is I couldn't find it. But, as the subject suggests, I'm looking for an Iscorama to buy. My preference would be a non-MC isco 54, but I would also consider a 36 or earlier model. I'd pay an non-insane price for it : )

or maybe I'm the one who's insane...

Thanks, and hi everyone.