Andrew Reid

Eh? Where did I say it was "burning hot"? There are two separate discussions going on here. What type of overheating do you still think is the problem? Do you really think to avoid skin burns the camera needs 1 hour cooling off timer set in firmware plus arbitrary timers for 2 years upon release, then quietly removed with no explanation? First discussion is about what the camera hardware is capable of. The hardware we pay for should be fully usable. Are the operating temps of the CPU and image sensor ok under sustained load. As you see from your GPU or CPU these peak temps are reached within minutes, then stabilise. Is the same with the EOS R5. The temps stabilise and the alloy housing acts as a passive cooler to dissipate the heat to the air. Second discussion is the external temp in contact with skin and how hot is too hot or against consumer regulations and whether it can cause skin burns. If Canon is trying to avoid this, then why remove the limitation now? Did the rules change? I don't think so somehow. Then there is the related discussion of Canon segmenting the market and whether they wanted EOS R5 to be used in place of R5C and C70 for pro video production. All three of these were planned at same time with staggered release schedule. What capabilities are fully reliable on which models is a question of firmware not just hardware. So to answer discussion 1 - We proved way back in 2020 that the EOS R5 hardware was capable of running for long periods even in 8K with the EXIF temps never going above 65c and the battery pull + screw in the battery door trick was possible to reset the 'overheating' timer counting down in firmware. It was capable of restarting a recording immediately - but remember the old firmware had a lengthy 45 minute to an hour long 'cooling off period' which was clearly bullshit because it didn't even take into account actual temperature sensors in the camera. For example the camera being in a fridge recording 8K where it would cool to room temp within a couple of minutes after stopping. It still had that arbitrary timer blocking you from the features and not allowing the use of the hardware you paid for to the full potential. I was contacted by a class action lawyer in the US during these discoveries, and the whole thing was talk of the town. Canon were really on the back foot PR wise. All their own fault. They had created the perception of an unreliable but expensive flagship camera, and that their new hardware was overheating. So rather than recall it and change the firmware, or even just apologise to their users who had spent the money on a defective cripple hammered camera, they enlisted their client journalists to say nice things about it and brought out a faux-fix firmware update that did barely anything. So that was the situation for EOS R5 owners for 2 years until this complete U-turn last week. I don't. I have no use whatsoever for "unlimited" recording times. I just want normal predictable behaviour from a camera especially for £4000. 30 min limit is fine by me, I am not an event shooter. Remember how severe the problems were with the original EOS R5 firmware - you could be in the menus or just shooting a few stills and an hour later the camera would be locking you out of the high quality 4K mode and 8K. So by my standards I only have to be able to use the camera normally without being blocked by fake timers. I kept saying all along after the magic screw trick, it was a firmware restriction, not real overheating. Nobody would listen. Even Magic Lantern were saying it. Nobody listened to them either. Now the lifting of the firmware timers proves it. But still people's minds don't change. All I can say is I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Who said anything about unlimited recording times? It was never an expectation of anyone about rolling unlimited number of hours in 8K. For those with short memories - We were sold a camera 2 years ago which was borderline unusable, shutting down from sitting idle in the menus, because of a badly implemented fake cripple hammer timer. There should have been a class action lawsuit brought. Canon soon realised they had a PR disaster on their hands so rolled out a firmware update and got all their client journalists to hype it up. That update did very little to improve recording times. We had been mis-sold and mislead into buying a camera that was advertised to do professional 8K and 4K video at highest quality when it couldn't even get through 20 minutes of sitting idle on set or an hour of light stills use before blocking you out of major headline features you paid for. Then to make it worse they refused to apologise, and left it out there software-crippled for 2 years before fixing it. But yeah you cannot expect anything more for your $4000... whatever Doug.

I am not sure what you know about electronics but warm to the touch is not classed as overheating. Have you ever looked at your PC CPU temps?

First test done. Went to 29m59sec maximum continuous recording length for 4K HQ with no issues whatsoever. Could start another clip straight after. No overheating warning. Camera body feels very hot all over, makes a nice hand warmer.

Well since it is 35 degrees C in Berlin today I decided to do a quick test. Put it in 4K HQ mode (8K sensor readout) and record until card fills up. I'll let you know what happens. (Don't expect any melting! The magic screw trick showed it could go for hours virtually non-stop shot after shot in 8K!) Of course the client reviewers will all now be out praising Canon for fixing the non-existent problem they tried to cover up.

Probably shooting in 1080p 😂

Does this mean I finally get to retire my Magic Screw? https://www.eoshd.com/news/2-years-later-canon-quietly-removes-fake-overheating-limits-of-eos-r5-in-firmware-update/

It all goes to prove our original point that it was a purposeful software limitation, and that you were not allowed to use the full capabilities of the hardware you just paid £4000 for. It should have been a class action lawsuit and maybe Canon knows it, which is why this u-turn has happened. At least we don't have to do the card trick now. I currently have an EOS R5 because I'm a hypocrite. So I'll see if it can go the full 2 hours of 8K without the card pull, and report back.

So it was a fake timer then.

By new do you mean the 2021 update? The latest one doesn't change anything to do with overheating. https://www.canon.co.uk/support/consumer_products/products/cameras/digital_slr/eos-r5.html?type=firmware&firmwaredetailid=tcm:14-2185943&os=macos 10.15 (catalina)&language=

Phones are aimed at a much bigger mainstream market. If they are to put in HDMI inputs, taking up valuable space, or even make USB C capable of video input, they would need to license ProRes and RAW codecs, all adding to the cost of the phone for the normal guy on the street to no benefit for him. I don't think anyone really needs a Ninja. Codecs are good enough in-camera these days to do without the hassle.

Looks great, no clipping and very deep shadows. Amazing find for that price!

It was an absolute beast of a sensor. Was almost as big as your motorhome 🙂 I still have my 808 somewhere. Might get it out and see if it will do 8K 24fps 😆

Size benefit of crop sensor cameras vs full frame has truly gone out the window lately hasn't it?

Right so let's get this straight Tupp. You are saying that when you patent a cinema camera, there's no point describing how it works. Internal recording, external via some cable to a separate box, all academic. Frame rate... don't need to mention! 9fps, 16fps, 24fps all the same to a lawyer! RED should just have saved themselves the bother and drew a picture of a square with the word CAMERA inside. Patent wins vs Apple, Sony... Weakness detected!

Any faster and it looks like YouTube, that's what they were thinking in the 20s. Patents are about defining an invention. You can't patent a car without mentioning whether it has 2 wheels or 4.

24p for one. Which is why they mention it in the patent!

You can say that again!! The best case scenario is: RED has infringed multiple important Nikon patents. Nikon gets compressed RAW in a settlement agreement. Worst case is: Nikon pulls the firmware update and cannot ship Z9 in future with the infringing feature. And I agree the patents system does prevent technological progress and is to the detriment of competition and consumers. But people on this thread seem to be blaming RED for this when it is actually a much more complicated issue akin to the upsides and downsides of stuff like copyright.

You would patent a movie camera without mentioning 24fps?

It's not about "feelings". One is a worldwide standard and one isn't. Having a standard frame rate for cinema is important otherwise people would mix 22,23,24,25,26 all on same timeline depending on camera brand. One is a standard, one isn't. You have to describe a patent with numbers and figures, and can't be wooly about it. You have to pick a standard. If you are designing a cinema camera and the standard for cinema is 24fps, why the fuck would you not mention that in the patent? The EV range analogy is a load of bollocks nonsense, complete irrelevance to the topic. A better analogy would be 50hz vs 60hz electricity as that is a fundamental difference in the supply standard. Thus if you were patenting an electric vehicle you might want to mention some fundamental numbers.

I gave it a try the other day. It works, very good sensor in it. There's also the Xiaomi Mi 10 which will give you 6K/24p RAW due to faster processor so maybe worth paying $300 for one of those on eBay instead. Redmi Note 11 is a bit more responsive than the Note 10 and same price. That's got a much smaller sensor though, but it seems to work well. Be careful of some of the budget handsets like Oppo Reno6 5G Stellar. It's got a lovely camera and 4.6K RAW but I couldn't get more than 16fps out of it in the app. Be aware that all the Xiaomi devices have slow USB C ports (2.0 speed crippled shit) so off loading the RAW will be slower than wifi and you can't use external SSDs for recording, so watch the internal memory size... 64GB not going to cut it.

In my opinion looking like best devices are... Xiaomi Mi 10 (6K RAW) Xiaomi Mi 11 Ultra (huge sensor and 5x periscope optics) OnePlus 8 Pro (I liked the RAW stills from this sensor and lens combo too) Whereas Samsung non-Snapdragon models in EU don't work properly and Huawei is a complete non-starter. Redmi / Poco phones seem to have some milage as best value for money But you can get a Mi 10 for 300 euros used nowadays.

No difference here to you then....

OK IronFilm I await your 23fps digital camera. Let's see how it sells!

The other thing with Mi 11 Ultra, amazing sensor though it is (and you can record 4K RAW on the ultra wide and 5x optical periscope zoom camera too) is that the USB C port is USB 2.0 speed! The app allows you to plug in a Samsung T5 SSD or such, and record RAW video directly to that. So worth rigging one up but only if your phone doesn't do something stupid like not having full speed USB 3.1