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Sorry if I misread! I have! And it's TOO smooth for my tastes. It's very impressive, but I still want some natural handheld movement. It helps with the immersion. It's why I have never used a gimbal for the ringside action. The biggest issue with action cameras, even the new ones, is the low light just isn't great in most of these venues that don't have professional lighting rigs set up.

It might be an unpopular thing to say, but ChatGPT might be useful in at least pointing you towards models you didn't know about. I've used it from time to time to ask about various things (recently about tiny FHD P&S cameras, but about other types of products too) and it seems to have reached a level now where it doesn't hallucinate much, especially if you're just asking it for products that meet a set of criteria rather than asking it to list the full spec sheet. You still have to fact check anything important, and it's also quite biased (anything trained on the internet will be pretty skewed but camera content is probably more skewed than average!) so I'd suggest it's probably about as good as the average camera forum user, who is just as likely to have irrational brand opinions and loyalties and gaslight you about resolution and lens sharpness etc!

I've filmed a lot while walking, often on uneven ground, and I agree with your assessment. Even using Dual-IS (lens OIS and IBIS) on Panasonic cameras like GH5 / GX85 / GH7 you'd have to be much more ninja-like than I manage to be most of the time. I haven't tried the EIS setting on top of the Dual-IS, but by looking at the footage afterwards, I can tell that I'm not hitting the limits of the stabilisation by only a small amount - it tends to be stable and then jump pretty abruptly. I've filmed with setups that only had OIS or no stabilisation at all and so I appreciate the magic Panasonic is working, but there are limits to everything. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to follow people who are likely to be pretty unpredictable and jumping around etc trying to surprise their opponent. Have you ever used any of the newer breed of action cameras that have the ultra-hyper-giga-maxxed-stabilisation modes? I haven't, but they look basically like magic, stabilising people running and biking etc which is well beyond the OIS / IBIS / EIS territory on normal cameras. It would be fascinating if someone made a normal camera with a mode like that where it takes a large crop into the lens but delivers that kind of stabilisation. I can imagine using a wider prime, like a 16mm or 24mm with that mode to grab shots that are 2x cropped but smooth like butter.

You could add the Sony ZV-1 to the list (original version, which has lens OIS) - it's basically the same size and weight as the RX100 V but more video orientated. I own both the ZV-1 and an HX99 (which is tiny, shoots 4k up to 30p, with a pop-up EVF and a fantastic zoom range for a camera that small - helped at the long end by only having a 1/2.3″ sensor, of course). Unless you really need the zoom range or EVF, the ZV-1 shoots better video (with a mic jack too) and very nice stills. You can also get a JJC stick-on 52mm filter adaptor for it - https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07GWQ6CXL (The Sony menu system will annoy you though if you're used to Panasonic cameras...)

The LX10/LX15 is a solid little camera. The big differentiator (aside from price) over the Sony 1” cameras is the f1.4 aperture at the wide end. That comes with a couple of caveats in that it doesn’t stay f1.4 very far into the range and shooting in 4K there is a bit of a crop. It takes my cinelike-D hack and I also put a magnetic filter thread on mine that enables you to put ND on it and/or in my case a Sony 2x TC that you can quickly pop on and off to extend the range. These are some grabs from mine. The top panel is lens at it’s widest, the middle is maximum zoom and bottom is maximum zoom with the TC on. If you want to have one with a natural long zoom range on it then their other 1” from the time the TZ100 has a 10x optical zoom. Can also take the cinelile-d hack.

I've been AI-ing, googling, and searching ebay, and it looks like there aren't any bargains to be had, although I can get a Sony WX30 for AUD200 / USD140 in great condition from Japan, and that's one of the smallest ones around (it's next to the GoPro on the left).. Video quality doesn't look too bad either, especially if the reference is 16mm or 35mm film.. The "logic" of the larger camera is pretty deafening though. Looking at the below... why use the WX30 when the slightly-larger RX100 or LX10 give you 4K and a drastically nicer image, and then why use those when the slightly-larger L10 has the GH7 sensor and V-Log and codecs instead of rec709, and now you're shooting with a brick! I realised I had a Lumix ZS20 sitting in a drawer and have now ordered a new battery charger and some new batteries for it, so that's a lot cheaper than a new camera and it's smaller than the LX10, especially when turned off. The struggle is real though.

The GM1 is a seriously tiny camera.. how big is the Pentax lens on it? Do you have any pics of the setup? I have the F8 bodycap lens and it's tiny as well. My GF3 is pretty small, especially when combined with the F8 pancake, but unfortunately if you analyse the image it becomes pretty clear that it's closer to SD than 720p, so nowhere near the 1080p it claims. I had forgotten about that one.. if there was a Chamera Pro then that would have to be it, considering the lens FOV is somewhat normal compared to the UWA of action cameras, although it's still pretty wide compared to the Charmera (24mm vs 44mm). An RX0 mk3 with one of the new 48MP smartphone sensors and all the cropping modes that come with it would be a fascinating camera, although at that point you'd just put an UWA 14mm lens on it and now you've basically made the latest GoPro line!

Actually, I was making exactly the opposite point from the one you made it sound as though I was making : D when I mentioned Lumix alongside the Oly case ; ) The other point is simply that one lens isn’t necessarily the same as another ; )) While much also depends on the way the operator handles the camera, a lens with optical stabilisation can make a night-and-day difference... speaking as someone who uses glass with and without it every day on the FX series :- )

No lens is going to help stabilize running enough on any of the current Sony cameras to watch Lumix IBIS unless you use Catalyst Browse which just isn't an efficient option for 3 hour long events.

The lens can also play a relevant role in order to reach the result you intend or need : ) even though, Oly or Panasonic may overcome it indeed :- )

For fast action sports where you're moving quickly it's just not sufficient from what I've seen. If you're largely standing still I imagine it's sufficient but when you're running around a wrestling ring, not so much. My use case though is admittedly unique.

None of these are unknown for the firmware team that already finished the development. Its not something they need time to discover. Also, when they promise the update in the marketing materials, they're officially admitting they have the solution. Heck they even let Philip Bloom to test it.

Luna Ultra firmware update... v1.0.283: I-Log monitoring, zoom and general operation have improved a lot, while the POV Head Tracker (one of my favs, as you already know ; ) now also works with the camera mounted upside down, with better control accuracy and standby power consumption on the detachable display has also been reduced : )

Sony RX0 is reasonably small. Not a zoom however and you might regard it as an “action cam” (albeit without stabilisation it isn’t!).

My user icon here on EOSHD is a GM1 with a tiny Pentax A110 24mm prime lens on it. Aside from using a flat-f8-body-cam-pancake-lens, this was as about as small as I ever got things. Which was pretty small!

I'm wondering what the smallest P&S camera is that shoots real 720p or 1080p (not line-skipped or pixel-binned and then upscaled). If it has a zoom that would be even better. My recent adventures with emulating 16mm film on my GX85 and the fun of shooting on the almost microscopic Kodak Charmera have made me start thinking about what the smallest 720p or 1080p camera (that isn't an action camera) might be, which I suspect will be a P&S. During the P&S arms race I'm sure someone pushed the boundaries... The Super-16 emulations I did with the GX85 made me realise that the DR of a rec709 camera is more than enough and that S16 is far lower than 1080p, and perhaps lower than 720p even. The Charmeras is probably one of the smallest cameras around but isn't a P&S and its real resolution is only 720x540 so not real 720/1080p. The LX10/LX15 comes to mind of course and seems like a great camera but it's still quite pricey and I'd like to go significantly smaller again if I can. Unfortunately camerasize.com isn't exhaustive with the hundreds (thousands?) of P&S cameras that got released, so some brands are missing (and you can't search by size). My initial research shows turned up the below, but maybe there are some hidden gems? It looks like the industry decided that 90-110mm wide and 55-60mm tall was perfectly fine and just pushed to go thinner? Which, if any, of these are worth looking at?

Never tried it but I suspect the FX30 stab would be good enough for my handheld needs which are basically ‘static’. I move more and more however towards the combo of absolutely locked off or floating moving with nothing in between. Lumix are great in this regard because if you have everything dialled up to the max, albeit at the expense of some cropping, these things stay incredibly still. It’s really only if there is any static foreground that you notice any movement so wider establishing shots, I always use a tripod or something.

I bought one and ended up selling it. While the RED NE looks great, it's way to much data for what I shoot and the H265 is terrible, I can't understand how Nikon does not understand the urgency of fixing it.....

@newfoundmass@MrSMWFX30's stabilization is not necessarily bad at all... it requires a proper operator! : P Maybe @kye is serious up there, maybe not ; ) I am :- )

It's more likely that some features are not considered a high priority as many would not necessarily use them at all, and so to get the hardware product (with early firmware that supports the main features) out earlier they do not release all the features they are working on. They can then use the revenue from early camera sales to fund further work on the firmware. 4K240 produces an enormous amount of data and there could be serious challenges in implementing it, including (1) how to compress the data so that it will be possible to write on CFexpress type A cards, (2) how overheating can be avoided, (3) what kind of compression to apply, and (4) what kind of dynamic range is possible given the sensor read time (dual gain output readout) and high frame rate (240 fps). Finally all the aspects of the feature need to be tested thoroughly before releasing the firmware out to the users.

Stabilisation is to mine but not necessarily IBIS… With my S1Rii’s paired with primes, I have the e stab dialed up to the max in addition to the already great IBIS and though this crops considerably, no issue because I’m always working with slightly wider than necessary lenses. These are my ‘great stability speed’ units as in not even faffing with a monopod. The S9 is paired with a gimbal either on or off a lightweight tripod which requires a bit more faffing but gives another, but different type of stability. S5ii on heavyweight (it’s quite light actually) for ultimate stability for the longer stuff.

The FX30s are still really great values. I realistically could get away with three of those and be set for the next half decade at least. The biggest issue I'd have is just the poor IBIS. IBIS is hugely important for my work, even more than auto focus and all the other comforts people wanted over the years. That's what has kept me in the Lumix camp. I plan to switch out one or both of my S5s for a S5II or S5II X here soon. Amazing IBIS and really good auto focus... no real reason to switch.

Couldn't agree more!

It's funny, I'm pretty aligned with your thoughts, just like you, I'm on the back end of my commercial life (went full time in 1993) and have always been pragmatic with gear. I want to splash out once before it's not relevant anymore! I too am shooting on the S1R2 and love the files out of it. And yes if I ever get an SL3P, the first thing is to black out, sorry stealth out the white Logo 🙂