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Magic Lantern discover 2K raw DNG stream in live view on the 5D Mark III

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#1
Andrew Reid

Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:46 PM

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5D Mark III Cinema DNG

Magic Lantern have uncovered a Cinema DNG output on the 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III. At the moment it doesn't record video but it is expected to be capable of 24fps. The Live View Raw Buffer on the 5D Mark II allows for a 2040 x 1428 Cinema DNG stream, and the team are researching the same feature on the 5D Mark III.

Read the full article here

#2
Zach

Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:50 PM

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"Why the hell is this feature not implemented if the cameras are capable of it??" 

 

Quite a valid question. I can not wait to see where this goes

 

 

Heck, I'd be happy with just a 1080p Raw stream. Or 2K 8 bit


Edited by Zach, 26 April 2013 - 05:52 PM.


#3
Julian

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

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Wow...

I wouldn't expect the 5D2 or 5D3 to be able to process 24 x 5MB / second and send it to a CF card. Time for hardware hacks...

2048 x 1428 would be great for 2x anamorphics :)



#4
Brellivids

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

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Sounds very nice if we get yet more features to our cameras that more or less started it all. Even a timelapse feature would be awesome if it's nothing more.



#5
HurtinMinorKey

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

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Wow...

I wouldn't expect the 5D2 or 5D3 to be able to process 24 x 5MB / second and send it to a CF card. Time for hardware hacks...

2048 x 1428 would be great for 2x anamorphics :)

 

I guess it wouldn't have to process it. But it wouldn't be able to write to CF cards at that rate anyway.



#6
Andrew Reid

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

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DNG is uncompressed raw so requires no image processing like compressed video does, the debayering is already being done on the camera and results in a usable image, it just needs to be dumped from buffer memory to SD card memory.



#7
FilmMan

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

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Alex quote,

There's a debug flag (lv_save_raw) that enables this. Coutts found it a few months ago on 6D, but back then we had no clue what it could be or how to decode it.

So, the missing piece from the puzzle was the 14-bit decoder from the raw histogram experiments, and the location of the LV RAW buffer (visible right away once g3gg0 understood how EDMAC works).

The DNG encoder from CHDK worked pretty much out of the box.

I'm now trying to sync FPS override with shutter speed, so you can take slow exposures too.



#8
FilmMan

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:45 PM

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More discussion:  https://www.facebook...447546545335289



#9
theSUBVERSIVE

Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:53 PM

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"Why the hell is this feature not implemented if the cameras are capable of it??"

 

The real question is the other one "...why Canon would have such a feature in the camera(?)"

 

But for the first question, at this stage, it's pretty much clear, isn't it? Canon has being handcapping their cameras for sometime, I wish that as EOS-C is far from being a EOS DSLR direct competitor, they would stop this nonsense of leaving lots goodies out of their cameras. On the other hand, that's the same reason I wish very well for companies like BlackMagic, that is actually pushing things forward instead of just feeling comfortable in not innovating.

 

The problem is that Canon's marketing is so strong that most people still think they have the best video quality in ILC, until people in this are realize that or some other company push them, Canon will feel that they have no reason to worry or to change their posture and they will be partially right.


two (EPIC) bits
http://2epicbits.com/


#10
Bioskop.Inc

Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

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I've been processing this all day & F**K ME - Canon were hiding DNG files from us!

The ML people are really smashing down the walls that Canon have so carefully put into place to restrict its users.

Damn, that idea of buying a cheap 5D2 isn't looking so stupid now!

I think on the forum that this might work on other cameras too.

And people wonder why anyone bought a Canon - ML was a definite selling point for me.

 

But the thing that amazes me is why they don't just try putting a camera together from scratch - if they did a Kickstarter project, they'd get the cash soo quickly based on their track record alone! 



#11
kabuto1138

Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

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Interesting idea about the kickstarter project but if they consider putting a camera together they'll probably use canon parts... and I'm sure the Canon legal dept. will put their hands all over that.  Hopefully they won't stop ML now with this new development.



#12
cantsin

Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:39 PM

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Andrew, what is your source for the following statement: "At the moment it doesn’t record video but it is expected to be capable of 24fps"? I don't think that the 5DMkII, with its ancient processor, can write 24*5 MB=120 MB/s to a CF card.



#13
HurtinMinorKey

Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

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Andrew, what is your source for the following statement: "At the moment it doesn’t record video but it is expected to be capable of 24fps"? I don't think that the 5DMkII, with its ancient processor, can write 24*5 MB=120 MB/s to a CF card.

 

its raw, so there is no processing involved. I think that they are saying that a raw stream exists that COULD possibly be tapped into. If they can tap this stream, then the only way to get it off board would be through hdmi.

 

However, i seriously doubt this 14bit stream is 24p.

 

But it would be interesting if Canon had this feature hidden all along, in case it did want to retaliate to BMCC. If so, now would be an ideal time to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.



#14
peaton

Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

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Canon has not released this for the same reasons western medicine has not released the cure for cancer.  Sure, it exists, but it may not be 100% stable yet, AND most importantly, it will absolutely force both companies to lose profits.  "We can't lose profits!" says canon... 

 

...Well, they should have considered their customers, they should be reading comments on blogs like this.  My blackmagic ef arrived this week, and the only DSLR I will purchase again is the GH-line, probably a gh3 for a B-Cam.  Maybe even the $500 gh2. 

 

It's just hilarious how canon has ignored this market... it's incredible.  They make fantastic products, the build of the canon 7d is still my favorite of all dslr's... but they are greedy and naive.  

 

Why are people so greedy?  Why not advance civilization by making 4k readily available in the 1dc?  Canon sucks, and that is why I have switched to the reliable and innovative Blackmagic Design. 



#15
cantsin

Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:09 PM

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its raw, so there is no processing involved. I think that they are saying that a raw stream exists that COULD possibly be tapped into. If they can tap this stream, then the only way to get it off board would be through hdmi.

 

How? RAW isn't debayered so it can't be sent to HDMI.



#16
Andrew Reid

Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

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The raw is debayered. They added a DNG encoder as well. They just need to dump it from buffer to card. I say just. It is probably very complex.



#17
Mr. Blah

Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:18 PM

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I'd hesitate to jump to the conclusion that Canon intentionally cut this functionality out of the camera in order to protect their business.

First, this functionality comes from grabbing frames from the Live View display buffer instead of the regular video mode, hence the odd 1.43:1 aspect ratio and resolution (side note: Andrew might like that for anamorphic work). Secondly, and perhaps most importantly to the matter of intent, this was found on the 5D Mk. II, Canon's first video-capable DSLR. Canon wasn't, at that time, expecting to completely flip the indie video market on its head -- they didn't even release the camera with 24p; I can't think that cutting 2040x1428 RAW capture via a display buffer was a matter of product tiering... not yet at least.

My guess is this: just as in general software development, Canon probably had people writing code for the camera's Live View display functionality. Perhaps as part of diagnostic testing or just general exploration, this function was written into the camera's firmware/OS. However, most likely due to the odd nature of the function and it not being planned as a feature from the start, no further development was done. The code associated with this functionality was probably subsequently disabled. If anyone's familiar with modders and hackers finding new levels. models, and features hidden within the code video games, I'd parallel this discovery with that. Also, considering the potential reliability issues, the extra time, testing, QA, cost of development, and the data rate limitations on both the camera and CF cards, implementing a feature like this in a camera like the 5D Mk. II just wouldn't have made sense at the time.

 

Of course, my guess is as good as any at this point. I certainly think Canon's been taking the piss on the market with its lacking developments in affordable large sensor video solutions, but I'm not sure this is directly related to that.



#18
Andrew Reid

Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:33 PM

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Tester Luke Neumann says he is getting 10fps raw from the 5D Mark III onto an SD card for 1-2 seconds but the Magic Lantern team seem very hopeful that with further development they will eventually get 24fps for much longer run times, and it is very early days in the development yet.

 

Pretty amazing stuff...

 

I have access to a nightly build of the firmware and will be testing it out.

 

Luke is going to post sample footage soon.



#19
kabuto1138

Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

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Is kind of funny that this new development is coming out the same day the 5d3 firmware leaked to underwhelming reaction.

 

10-20 seconds would be amazing with this.   I wonder if Canon might interfere.  Hopefully not.  Magic Lantern is the only reason I still have the 5d2.  And if this gets developed further and to other canon cameras, then I guess my B-cam will also be a canon. 

 

This will only help Canon sales if it reaches its full pontential.

 

... now back to donating to the ML team!!



#20
FilmMan

Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

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Another developer on 422 with the 5d3.  For those interested read below.

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xx.gif
uncompressed YUV422 video recording
« on: Today at 12:07:12 AM »
 
Currently i am working on a module that records YUV422 data to card.
This code will only work when compiled from repository (there is no release yet)

5D3: can record 1904x1274 @ 12.5 fps

here some example video:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing
(not sure how to make it look better and not take 600MiB)

here some sample images:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

there are three major options
 - Frame skipping: record every n-th frame. choose 2 on 5D3 in 25 fps mode to record with 12.5 fps *continuously*
 - Single file: save some processing time by writing a single file. you have to split it later on your computer. (maybe the 422 converters will somewhen support this?)
 - RAW mode: not working yet, just saving gibberish wink.gif

right now the module is not user-friendly. press start and it will record 2000 frames.
it will abort if the buffers are exhausted.
you can also abort by removing battery wink.gif
« Last Edit: Today at 12:39:47 AM by g3gg0 »
 





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