Premiere audio timeline programming glitch

[Geoffrey]

I have noticed what looks like a programming error in Premiere, niche but serious.

The problem occurs when you use the audio time units scale / display to fine tune the position of audio files, then try and move them with the video.

Scenario:

3 mono audio tracks, two a stereo ambient pair, the other, a radio mic on the 'talent'
1 video track (with muted linked audio, used for synch only)

After lining up the three linked audio clips with the video (via a slate tone), due to phasing issues it is sometimes necessary to move the radio mic clip a few milliseconds (I use the milliseconds scale rather than samples). This works fine to eliminate the problem, and my whole capture setup was designed with this possibility being needed in mind.

I then re-link the three audio clips and group them with the video clip so they can all be easily moved as one unit without losing any synch.

EXCEPT when you do move a group, the fine timing adjustment to the radio mic clip is lost! The software inexplicably re-aligns it with the other audio clips even though the audio time units scale is still enabled and the clips are linked and grouped. Worse, if you 'undo' it, the realignment sticks! Undo moves the group back to where it was but It doesn't undo the time realignment. Only loading a previous version gets you back to where you were. All of this occurs if you cut and past as well as click and drag

This does NOT occur if you use the roll tool or close a gap in the timeline by selecting it and hitting backspace.

Given that I have many edits and many 'Groups' that contain this small time adjustment of the radio mic clips, this is a very major issue for me.

The only work around I have found is to de-group, move the linked audio first, then align the video afterwards. In other words if you move or cut and paste the linked audio only, the automatic software re-alignment error does not occur. Having to move audio and video independently is a real pain though and also prone to error, - any grouped video clip that you forgot to ungroup will cause the error, and remember, Undo doesn't work!

I get this is a bit niche but surely having to deal with audio phasing / combing issues like this is far from uncommon? I did find a couple of people online complaining about this very problem but with no solutions. These complaints go back many years so this is not new.

Anyone else noticed this, got any suggestions? I have tried all manner of solutions but only moving the audio and video separately works (as long as audio time unites is enabled, if it is not, moving these files independently will cause the re-alignment, but that is at least logical, as the timeline only has the much coarser frames scale to align with)

Thanks for reading.

[fuzzynormal]

If you want to complain about bugs in Premiere, you'll be a busy boy.  What Premiere is supposed to do and what it actually does are not always the same thing.

FWIW, I've noticed this too.  My workflow doesn't run into too much so when it does I just cope with it 'manually'.

[Geoffrey]

4 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

If you want to complain about bugs in Premiere, you'll be a busy boy.  What Premiere is supposed to do and what it actually does are not always the same thing.

FWIW, I've noticed this too.  My workflow doesn't run into too much so when it does I just cope with it 'manually'.

Glad to know I am not alone!

Found this possible workaround which I haven't tried yet but is fairly simple and seemingly 'fixes' the audio clip positions:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-bugs/quot-audio-time-units-quot-syncing-just-un-syncs-back-to-the-nearest-frame-when-i-move-my-clips-why/idi-p/13603588

[MrSMW]

I use Première and haven’t noticed this particular issue…but then maybe I misunderstand?

I drop my clip and then immediately unlink the 4 automatic audio tracks. Why it switched to 4 with some update I have no idea.

I then delete the bottom 3 and re-link the top audio track.

I then drop my lav mic audio track below and hit sync, pull it up replacing the original audio track and link that.

Job done.

Or as above, maybe I am missing something?

[Geoffrey]

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I use Première and haven’t noticed this particular issue…but then maybe I misunderstand?

I drop my clip and then immediately unlink the 4 automatic audio tracks. Why it switched to 4 with some update I have no idea.

I then delete the bottom 3 and re-link the top audio track.

I then drop my lav mic audio track below and hit sync, pull it up replacing the original audio track and link that.

Job done.

Or as above, maybe I am missing something?

Yeah I am going deeper than that. The autosynch is very blunt and not that accurate, plus I have to move the lav mic audio by increments less than a frame to deal with the out-of-phase issue with the other mics. It is having to do this that causes the problems discussed and reveals a programming error in the software. I think you are simply sticking with the frame scale rather than using using audio units and you won't have any problems if that is good enough for you. 

The underlying problem is that whilst Premiere allows the use of the two scales (frames for video and time units (samples / milliseconds) for audio, when you try and move linked audio and video where the audio has been adjusted to fall between frames, it reverts back to frame movement for everything and you lose any finer audio adjustments. It's a fault.

[ac6000cw]

If Premiere supports VST audio plugins, could you use a delay plugin to time-shift one of the audio clips to fix the phasing issue, instead of shifting it directly on the timeline?

Another thought is that there are auto-align/auto-phasing VST plugins around, designed specifically to deal with multi-mic phasing issues in a multi-track mix e.g. like this one from Melda - https://www.meldaproduction.com/MAutoAlign

(Note I've never used that particular plugin, but I use other Melda plugins so I happen to know it exists).

Alternatively (but more work initially) could you fix the phasing issues as you do already, then export the fixed & mixed audio for the clip to a WAV file, then put it onto the timeline to replace the original audio for the clip (then group it back with the video)?

[fuzzynormal]

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

there are auto-align/auto-phasing VST plugins around

Oh, wow, I never thought about this.  Kind of an obvious head-smacking solution.  Thanks!

[Geoffrey]

Yeah, a VST delay plugin is a good idea and worth considering for the future but also has its own issues. It isn't as simple as one file needing adjusting - sometimes it needs different adjustments within the same file and there are numerous files many of which will need copying and pasting into different timelines etc. Plus I tend to use numerous audio tracks. It is why the manual approach to each clip seemed like the simplest option and I have spent quite a long time getting the sound just right this way for around 10, 3-minute edits all in their own timeline, and only discovered the problem when I started to put the whole film together in new timeline, hence the need to copy and paste these edits. Bouncing audio down at this stage is therefore not practical as much will need to be adjusted for the full version.

I tried the solution I posted above involving sending audio to Audition but it only works up to a point. And it seems quite confusing as to why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. It also has the capacity to mess the sound up in a whole new way. So it is no good either.

I am left with my original workaround - always move the audio separate from the video. I am also now making a note of the milliseconds offsets of all relevant audio clips in case of error. It is all a total pain and a very annoying malfunction of the software.