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Sara

New Black Magic Cinema Video Sample - Skin Tone Leah

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[quote author=christianhubbard link=topic=611.msg4403#msg4403 date=1334889398]
Sorry to hijack another thread about skin tones, but can someone explain even more about them?


Axel really elaborated the importance of preserving skin tone in another thread, and how to go about that in post, but what makes a camera great in terms of skin tone?

If you're shooting raw isnt the skin tone quality entirely up to the grader?
[/quote]

Yes, it is.

Why I graded the still hat FilmMan recommended to me was to show that the grading in all examples above was horrible. Ikterus. I am not an Art Director swimming in piss, but I am astonished that everyone actually seems to like the skin tones. The Emperor's new clothes.

One thing is true: The color depth would be a great advantage on a cinema screen. The BMC maybe better for that or not. You surely can't tell by this demo.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
[quote author=Sara link=topic=611.msg4406#msg4406 date=1334891961]
Opinions will differ on skin tone I guess, but to me those are good for a Canon 5D but still waxy / videoish / and very cheap looking.  I watched them on an Eizo ColorEdge CG245W.
[/quote]

We can remove opinion and subjective evaluation for skin quality by first understanding how to create skin with math (computer graphics): http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems3/gpugems3_ch14.html. Once we have reached agreement on what looks accurate/realistic, we can discuss how to transform away from realism into video (limited dynamic range, bunched/crushed highlights, limited pixel detail (blurred to remove noise & detail, then sharpened with unsharp mask), edge halos/bloom/glow), aliasing, etc.) into a film look (extended dynamic range (HDR), no crushed highlights, detailed pixels, no halos, zero aliasing).

The BMD examples have aliasing and I'm not yet seeing HDR, or HDR effectively tone-mapped into 8-bit for the web (there is color banding/solarization below the left eye and on the neck/shoulder). There are frames in the 5D3 Copelandia footage where limited DR and compressed highlights hurt the look, however there are plenty of frames (the eye close up, for example) which look excellent. Some shots of the girl's face (Christopher's test footage) have highlight peaks and blooms/halos created by in-camera sharpening (unsharp masking), which hurts fine detail (which he acknowledged in the comments).

How do we simulate plastic in CG- we make sure there is no sub-surface scattering, don't render fine detail, and use a simple Phong model for specular highlights. Rendering realistic skin requires modeling sub-surface scattering and a sophisticated energy-accurate specular model.

Note that the BMD model example is wearing significant makeup- not a rendering of skin but rendering make up on skin (oil and sub-surface scattering are hidden). The hands, with no make up have a video look: low detail, bloomed specular in thumb creases (even though not blown out completely). Looking at the cuticles, there appears to be a biotin (B7) and B12 deficiency.

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It's a technical vs esthetical discussion here. You could look at all the small technical details, and then decide you don't like this look, or you could see the image as a whole, and although there are some small issues here and there, you still like the look or feel: that's esthetical, and personal. I like the Canon look more than the Panasonic look, just as I like Nikon look in stills photography.

To me it's important if the image holds when grading it, will it exacerbate issues baked in the flat image?
And what's even more important... I'm a one man band, I'm no professional lighter, I'm no professional grader, and I suspect many here are working alone or in small groups.. will the image be forgiving enough so that we can still make the most of it in post...

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[quote author=jcs link=topic=611.msg4413#msg4413 date=1334899678]
[quote author=Sara link=topic=611.msg4406#msg4406 date=1334891961]
Opinions will differ on skin tone I guess, but to me those are good for a Canon 5D but still waxy / videoish / and very cheap looking.  I watched them on an Eizo ColorEdge CG245W.
[/quote]

How do we simulate plastic in CG- we make sure there is no sub-surface scattering, don't render fine detail, and use a simple Phong model for specular highlights. Rendering realistic skin requires modeling sub-surface scattering and a sophisticated energy-accurate specular model.

Note that the BMD model example is wearing significant makeup- not a rendering of skin but rendering make up on skin (oil and sub-surface scattering are hidden). The hands, with no make up have a video look: low detail, bloomed specular in thumb creases (even though not blown out completely). Looking at the cuticles, there appears to be a biotin (B7) and B12 deficiency.
[/quote]


And don't forget the lighting type used can make a huge difference on skin tone renders, which is why I love the HMIs magical sub-skin scatter rendering !

... And I think I have finally found a led lighting type I think I want http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/led_light_tests_flesh_tone_and_color_comparison_shootout/P1/
HMIs aren't portable enough for the project I've got coming up.. So these just might be the ticket.

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I just find the detail in that 1080p still is significantly better than what you'd get out of the 5D, both due to the codec and the 5D's ability to resolve, try pulling a frame like that out of the 5D and grading it, it would break up under anything more than light grading and it wouldn't be that detailed to start, that' the feeling I get at least, it's hard to say going off the limited stuff that is out there.

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https://vimeo.com/40117480
i really like work of this guys  ...
they make some of the best images made by canon camera (with cheap lens and low budget postproduction)....
im really puzzled why they are not more famous ...
that video beats anything what i seen made by Shane Hurlbut  and Philip Bloom ...

https://vimeo.com/25465542
:)

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to me  Black Magic Cinema camera, is a "right direction camera", that does not look good enough compared to hacked GH2. Nikon D4 with HDMI on board is a best choice at the moment, possibly not for resolution, but that "filmic" 35mm look that many commented on vimeo. WIll I buy  Black Magic Cinema cam?  You bet! good thing to be able to use 4/3 lenses on it.

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[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=611.msg4427#msg4427 date=1334924468]
https://vimeo.com/40117480
i really like work of this guys  ...
they make some of the best images made by canon camera (with cheap lens and low budget postproduction)....
im really puzzled why they are not more famous ...
that video beats anything what i seen made by Shane Hurlbut  and Philip Bloom ...

https://vimeo.com/25465542
:)
[/quote]

absolutely not.
If you honestly think Luke Neumann can even come close to holding a candle in the wind to Shane Hurlbut then you're delusional.

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@christianhubbard
lets see ...
two guys one girl and cheap equiment...
Shane Hurlbut  :big crew , pro lighting , best lens ...
and dont forget all the magic of Technicolor facilities , Dark Energy software and best color correction money can buy ...
i bet on this guys and if you cant see why then u you're ...
:)

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[quote author=cameraboy link=topic=611.msg4442#msg4442 date=1334942099]
@christianhubbard
lets see ...
two guys one girl and cheap equiment...
Shane Hurlbut  :big crew , pro lighting , best lens ...
and dont forget all the magic of Technicolor facilities , Dark Energy software and best color correction money can buy ...
i bet on this guys and if you cant see why then u you're ...
:)
[/quote]

Yes! See the Revolution-rig (a steady-system with a head that can rotate around the optical axis, I wonder how much such an apparatus costs) on Hurlbuts blog, where he talks about [i]The Ticket[/i]. And then he once admitted, that he doesn't change lenses on his 5Ds, he lets every lens on it's own body. And he keeps A- and B-cameras to easier keep track of all the inserted SD-cards. Probably he also doesn't change the batteries, but has other instances of bodies, C, D and so forth. And I'm quite sure he takes a camera in his hands only for promo photos. If the Hurlbut crew changes locations, it must look like this:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-C0265%2C_Schutztruppe_Deutsch-Ost-Afrika%2C_Träger.jpg[/img]

I have another funny video like cameraboys:
http://vimeo.com/18104656

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this guys and girl are part of  our world ...
few people with  limited  resources but with passion to tell story ...
and i like their ironic point of view...
i can understand why Kubrick used 65mm and rigs to make 2001 (it was necessary to show future world ) ...
but do you really need all that to shot The Ticket  that should be intimate relationship and human story ?

and great video, thanks ...
so true ...
:)

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