TheBoogieKnight
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Posts posted by TheBoogieKnight
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Canon EOS R6
In: Cameras
2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:1D X Mark III sensor readout is at a lower resolution, and higher frame rate. Each sweep of the sensor will be quicker, as there's half the lines of resolution to read out compared to the R5.
You don't need to look at any maths. Just look at the logic.
If the R5 is going to be 25ms (it hasn't actually been tested yet), this is still a very good result for the resolution (8K / 4320p), compared to 4K with just 2190 lines.
So the R5 sensor is extremely fast.
Comparisons to the C500 II are moot as that is $15,000 and designed to do only 4K... It's a much lower res chip.
If we are comparing rolling shutter it should be in 4K/120p mode to other 4K cameras of the same class, type and price.
I think the rolling shutter in 4K on the R5 is likely to be sub 10ms.
Do you think it'll be using a quad Bayer sensor so no skipping/binning?
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4 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:
I'd be a happy man if Panasonic had made the S1 the same size, weight, and shape as my old Nikon D750.
Fascinating how different everyone is. I love the size/weight/shape of the S1 like no other camera I've ever owned. I change my mind sometimes when it's on a Ronin S with a monitor mind! 😄
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One thing I don't get is if the sensor outputs 12 bits, why not just store is as 12 bit H.264 (Hi444PP) or H.265? Purely down to CPU/chipset limitations or they don't want to damage sales of higher end products or?
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1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said:
Thanks, that directly contradicts the dpreview article I read on the subject (and my understanding of dynamic range in audio):
Is this article wrong? I've been posting it online and will stop posting it if it is. I don't want to spread misinformation.
No it's not, as I've already said in a 12-bit system you can't get more than 12-bits of dynamic range, period. In audio it's the same: a 16-bit CD gives you around 96dB of dynamic range, nothing will give you more than that and adding dither isn't increasing the dynamic range.
But, one thing to consider is that noise below the floor will modulate the last bit/bits (this is what dither does anyway) so as others have said you can see see something under this simply due to the fluctuating noise which will have some statistical relevance to the original signal.
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Do we think it's pretty much a given that the R5 is using a quad bayer sensor or might there be some line/pixel skipping shenanigans going on over 30p?
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29 minutes ago, deezid said:
BMD, RED and Canon on the other hand use spatial noise reduction to boost their Imatest performance which doesn't create any motion related artifacts but sacrifices texture, darker areas chroma information often seems to be wiped out, skin may look waxy even, the Pocket 4K being the worst case. Cameras like the Pocket 6K and Ursa G2 and newer Canon cameras and any RED camera ever seem to be pretty well balanced though.
Have you used the Pocket stuff much?
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26 minutes ago, deezid said:
You will still be able to see patches in darker areas, doesn't mean the data is usable without huge amounts of noise reduction which is why the S1H is able to achieve almost 13 stops of 'usable' dynamic range, too bad Imatest doesn't care about motion artifacts caused by temporal noise reduction. I wouldn't mind temporal noise reduction that doesn't affect motion performance - HLG e.g. is perfectly fine on this camera achieving 12.2 actually usable stops. 😉
BMD, RED and Canon on the other hand use spatial noise reduction to boost their Imatest performance which doesn't create any motion related artifacts but sacrifices texture, darker areas chroma information often seems to be wiped out, skin may look waxy even, the Pocket 4K being the worst case. Cameras like the Pocket 6K and Ursa G2 and newer Canon cameras and any RED camera ever seem to be pretty well balanced though.Why is HLG so much different to VLOG in terms of noise etc? They've definitely improved things on the S1 with firmware updats although I don't think the H got the same improvements yet (could be wrong)?
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Would any of you lot buy one now the R5 is released then? I can get one for under 3.5k with the Ninja and grip. Seriously considering it but just scared of regretting it horrible if the R5 comes in at a similar price point and is as amazing as it's looking. I've got an S1 though so it would mean selling my L Mount kit etc. etc..
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5 minutes ago, androidlad said:
Cameras don't just read the sensor then dump the data straight to the cards, do they?
Noise floor can be lowered by noise reduction.
Yes but not below the bit-depth. And dynamic range can't be increase over the bit-depth. You can't get more a 12-bit signal from 12 bits unless (as I said earlier) you start with a higher bit-depth and add dither. This gives you more perceived dynamic range.
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2 minutes ago, androidlad said:
The ADC bit-depth numbers you see (12, 14 or even 16) are quantisation accuracy, they themselves do not act as ceilings or floors.
It's the SNR measurement threshold that sets the floor, the last few stops are always buried in noise, and noise reduction is an extremely effective way to increase SNR, especially in video mode due to the temporal nature. That's how they got more than 12 stops of DR from 12bit ADC.
II don't think this is true. You can't get more dynamic range from a 12 bit readout than 12 bits although you can get more *perceived* dynamic range if you start off with more bits and add dither. This is what happens in the audio industry (I worked/lectured in Music Tech for many years). But it actually reduces the true dynamic range, it's just that you can hear (or see in a camera) below the noise floor due to the dithering removing quantisation distortion.
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6 minutes ago, androidlad said:
In stills mode, they use 14bit ADC. In video mode it's 12bit, because to achieve video frame rate (at least 24fps), ADC bit-depth has to be dropped to increase speed.
Thought as much, thank you.
Seriously thinking of buying one (can get a great deal with a Ninja) but should I wait for the R5?
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Everything I've ever read on the S1 says the converter is 14-bit. This would make sense as it outputs 14-bit RAW images and even Sony's technical documents state 14-bit so why is it only 12 bit? Just readout speed for video so they had to do that?
On an unrelated note, do people generally think an S1H is still worth buying with the R5 around the corner?
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Hi everyone
Just wondered if anybody knows what format the RAW output of the S1H is? I've been led to believe up to now that's it's definitely LOG but I've just watched this video:
Which says it's linear.
Anyone know for sure? Also anyone got any idea of the lag of the Ninja V in Raw mode? It's pretty bad on the S1 but I was hoping it would be better.
Thanks
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21 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:
The Nikon Z6 seems to be the best option right now for 10 bit and auto focus, of course you need an atomos which is a pain in the ass. Until the new Canon DX comes out, though it'll be a lot of money I am sure. Of course there is Fuji if you aren't set on full frame.
Are you sure? I saw one shooting 10-bit with a Ninja (N-Log) and the autofocus was horrible and far worse than I've seen from an S1. It was a while ago so maybe there's been a new firmware but the guy shooting just said autofocus fell apart with an external recorder.
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Any impressions on the new firmware yet? Read somewhere that they've changed the noise reduction. Any improvements to AF?
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7 hours ago, KnightsFan said:
It's not about card bandwidth (if that's what you mean), it's a heat and processing issue. A full sensor readout still has to read all the sensor pixels, even if it then downscales to 4k. So it would be reading 5.9k at 60 fps in order to get the full field of view. The camera probably does not have the capability to read the full sensor at 60 frames per second, either because the processor is too slow, or it generates too much heat.
To get a FF look, they'd have to bin or line skip to avoid reading 24MP at 60fps. So it's either keep the FOV and have binning artifacts, or crop and get fewer artifacts in the image.
True. However, it seems like it is still in development to some degree. Maybe they didn't show the vent because it isn't finalized? I mean if they haven't yet decided between FF or APS-C for 4k60, maybe they aren't sure how much heat it could generate as an end product either. Total speculation, really, but I guess we will have to wait for release to know for sure.
Of course I was just having a dumb moment! Do we know if they're still using the same Sony sensor as all the others?
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Just now, KnightsFan said:
In the updated newsshooter article, Panasonic reps said they have not yet decided if 4k60 will be cropped or full frame. https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/06/01/panasonic-s1h-full-frame-mirrorless-6k-24p/
Thank you for that. I really hope it's not. 4k60 is less bandwidth than 5.9k/30p (assuming it really is 5.9k and not upscaled) so I don't think it's a sensor issue.
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Does anyone know for definite if 4k60 is cropped on the S1H?
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1 hour ago, currensheldon said:
That seems like quite a bit for a mirrorless camera. If they can get internal NDs in there, have great pre-amps to eliminate any low level hiss from the XLR adapter (that the GH5 did have a bit of), and broadcast approved 10-12 bit codecs for $4k-$5k (or so), I do think that is game-changing. Nobody has anything even close to that in this size, form factor, or price.
Yes, I hope there is some really game-changing extra surprises (like global shutter or 4k 120fps or internal compressed raw), but the above is still leaps and bounds ahead of everything else. There isn't even a manufacturer that offers anything better than 8-bit 420 in UHD.
It's a bummer that people are dismissing the S1 when it is such a more capable camera than an EOS R or any Sony I've used (and way nicer image quality) - just because the AF can't perfectly track people sprinting at them, a situation I have never needed to film in my 7+ years making videos and films...
A bit of an unfair comment. It can't even stay in focus during slow pull-ins and pull-outs as all the videos/reviews on the net and my own testing showed. Yes it gets the focus eventually but all the competition is able to stay focused.
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On 3/1/2019 at 5:41 PM, androidlad said:
F-Log and HLG don't have that much of a difference in low light, however, HLG has an edge in terms of detail preservation and finer noise pattern - HLG makes full use of 0-1024 code value, while F-log throws away 0-95 (raised black level).
NR is controlled by two NR settings, regular noise reduction and interframe noise reduction, with -4 and "off" setting there's no difference in NR between F-log and film sim/HLG.
Hi there
Could I ask the point of this (throwing away levels)? Is there any science behind it?
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Is there a new full-frame sensor available yet that will do FF 4k60/8k/anything else new?
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31 minutes ago, Skip77 said:
How does this compare to the Z6 ?
From all the tests I've seen online (and I've seen a fair bit as I'm in the market and looking at both), the quality is comparable (of course the S1 has HLG etc. but ignoring that). The S1 does however really pulls ahead at high ISOs. It looks almost 2 stops better at the top end in the comparisons I've seen. I'd love to know why this is since they're using similar sensors. Perhaps it's just better/different noise reduction on the S1 but I feel there's more to it than that.
Still don't know what I'm buying!
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6 hours ago, liamlumiere said:
You can choose 4:3 in 4K or 6K photo mode. Here's a short vid using 4k Photo mode with 4:3 aspect ratio, Mamiya 105mm and Möller 32/2x Anamorphot. There's no colour correction just very slight exposure adjustments on a few different picture profiles. It would be nice to get 25fps (or 24) atm it's 30 or 60p in 4K and 30 in 6K. It would also be nice to have HLG for this mode. Also, I wonder what bit rate and colour space the file records at in photo mode, anyone know?
Quick question on 6k mode; I've read that it's still cropped (as 4k60 is) but how can it be 6k if it's using a 4k portion of the sensor?
S1H Raw Format?
In: Cameras
Posted
Exactly.
I still don't get why all these cameras take a 12-bit linear signal then convert it to a 10-bit format when encoding. Is it just to protect more expensive lines higher up the market?