dr_jon
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Posts posted by dr_jon
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7 minutes ago, tupp said:
With the JVC tech (and with Canon sensor cropping), the lens doesn't need to cover the S35 sensor.
But they upscale a lower-res image to 4k, will people really see a lower resolution image as a good thing?
7 minutes ago, tupp said:Furthermore, a lot of pros don't care about using any particular line of line of lenses, they just want versatility -- a shallow lens mount that will allow the mounting of any lens.
The Pros may not care, but as I said above will Panasonic want to do a camera that works better with competitor's lenses.
7 minutes ago, tupp said:Really, the concept is super simple. Just give us the shallowest lens mount possible and let us pros worry about "coverage."
If the only market is Pros I don't think they'll sell enough to price it below the $4k mark.
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What the JVC does is upscale the sensor area in the smaller image circle to give you your video, but that won't do the resolution any favours. You can get some APS crop lenses sold with m43 mounts that should be okay for an s35 sensor, but does Panasonic want to sell the competition's lenses for them?
(Edit) Ah, posted the same time as Shield3 - they'd need a Speed "Reducer" as would have to spread the light out more, so would make the image duller and less sharp. Might work as a concept, but I think people would buy 3rd party lenses with a bigger image circle.
A 4k s35 sensor would kill it as a stills camera I guess, unless 6MP still floats anyone's boat these days.
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I struggle to see Panasonic coming up with a camera that won't work to its full capabilities with their existing lens range, as that limits what they can sell along with it. Also the bigger sensor will cost more and so make for a more expensive camera or lower margins.
The only argument in its favour is the lack of decent m43 sensors in the marketplace, so a GH5 is a tough camera to spec at present. (Panasonic haven't been designing new sensors for a while, they just restarted so any new products will be a long way away.) I doubt Sony will do another m43 sensor until their 20MP model makes its money back so they would need a sensor from another manufacturer and who will make one for such a small market, as a GH5 would be a low-selling camera (like the GH4)? The same argument would probably stop someone designing a s35 sensor just for Panasonic, if it's only 8MP (4k) at m43 image circle (16:9 crop) it's not going to be used in other more still-centric cameras vs. the 20MP Sony. So then the question becomes does anyone have an s35 sensor with enough pixels to do 4k at m43 image size (so 24MP-ish) while not costing a fortune? Also how will that affect sales of 4k Varicams at nice margins.
On the scaling of 6k down to 4k it depends on how well they can do it. I remember how the GH4 really doesn't do moire in 4k while the A7s did.
It might happen, but I think we're more like to get 4k/60p, internal 422 and an m43 size sensor.
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Also if you really want to shoot in 8k right now (sensor is 8,688 x 5,792)....
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You didn't talk budget, or I missed it ;-)
The problem with the GH4 (and all the Panasonics) is it only used 70% of the pixels to make 1080p, so you get some moire/aliasing (high contrast edges do not tend to stay where they should, but pop around a bit). You get a much better result shooting 4k and downscaling. It's not awful, the GH3 was much worse, but it can be annoying/distracting.
The A7s or sII will give a cleaner 1080p and the II has a built-in stabiliser (although I think I'd rather have Panasonic's 12-35 stabilised lens on a GH4). Also any low light issues disappear instantly. The GH4 is a better video camera though, just the moire isn't optional in 1080p. (Edit) Oh, forgot to say, the GH4's 4k is cleaner than the A7s', not sure about the mk II.
All IMHO. -
I just used the free version of Cliptoolz Convert to change a GH4 4k SooC file:
General
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 763 MiB
Duration : 1mn 6s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 96.7 Mbps
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L5.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 95.1 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 106 Mbps
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.459
Stream size : 751 MiB (98%)
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : twos
Duration : 1mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Delay relative to video : 40ms
Stream size : 12.1 MiB (2%)
To an output target of ProRes HD/HQ 4:4:4 with scaling to 1920x1080 and got:
General
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 2.13 GiB
Duration : 1mn 6s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 277 Mbps
Writing application : FFmbc 0.7
Video
ID : 1
Format : ProRes
Format version : Version 1
Codec ID : ap4h
Duration : 1mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 275 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:4:4
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 5.308
Stream size : 2.12 GiB (99%)
Writing library : ffm0
Language : English
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : twos
Duration : 1mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 12.1 MiB (1%)
Language : English
Any use? Though do note Cliptoolz Convert is discontinued so you might need to hunt around to find a copy. (It went from paid -> free -> discontinued, I think due to issues with using Prores.) It does claim to handle 4k scaling well, see the site: http://hdcinematics.com/convert-V2.html(Edit) The download link seems to work, which it didn't a while back:
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Ah, when people say "banding" they mean "posterisation", I thought they were looking at pattern noise from the sensor. Thanks for the clock photo.
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I do wonder if the reason it's a paid upgrade isn't so much about making money but that it's tricky to use well and if they gave it to everybody there'd be lots of people saying bad things about the GH4. Hence this way they restrict it to people who might have a vague clue what they are doing...
I do like the free trial option though, as I was very 50:50 on whether to just stick with Cinelike-D. Also it looks like there are some things needing sorting in another firmware version (e.g. histograms, zebras) so they should be able to charge all the people that seriously want to use it at some point and as a bonus not leave people who don't like it feeling slightly ripped off.
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Did anyone work out if the histograms work correctly in any combination, i.e. VLog-L paid upgrade, VLog-L selected by App, VLog-L on Custom (the last one apparently doesn't)?
Oh and for the record I do like Cinelike-D, not so sure about VLog-L and waiting to see how people get on.
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I've seen 3rd party VLog LUTs for the GH4, where did the official one come from? (Do you mean the Varicam35 one, it's just you said GH4-specific?)
Since it's completely out of the bag as of Erik's post here's the reddit link where they talk about the zebras (plus how to enable it):
https://www.reddit.com/r/Filmmakers/comments/3l1qab/panasonic_gh4_vlogl_available_for_free_just/ -
I understand from reddit the Histograms don't work correctly if it's on a custom setting (so that's a reason for a 2.4 firmware on its own, I assume but don't know they are okay in VLog-L). However if you set the manual video mode to VLog-L it will remember it until you change it (through power offs, etc.) and allow a different style in the still image modes.
I think the app isn't so bad, provided you remember to connect the WiFi to the camera first.
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Native in what sense? The pixels holds the most electrons at ISO 200 (well, you can get more at ISO 100 but it's throwing away highlight headroom to do it) so I assume that's zero gain on the ISO amplifier and hence native ISO?
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If I were Panasonic I'd be tempted to do a 2.4 firmware with some nice goodies in and locked-down V-Log, some of the stuff Olympus just announced for their next firmware upgrades would be nice. Giving people their money back would be tricky, but the stable door is still wide open and the Horse already in another time-zone...
dwijip - Where did Panasonic admit their mistake? -
Thanks - didn't know that, although I gather from people's comments that it may be a while before ML manages dual Digic-6 cameras.
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BTW "Samuel H" at dvxuser measured the rolling shutter (from my test video) at 27.7ms, so not that great but not dreadful (5DmkII is 25.9, 5DmkIII is 20.5, A7s full-frame 1080p is 30.5, and A7s 1080p APS 19.5).
Full results:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue! -
BTW as I only have a Basic Vimeo account the originals only last for a week. I did post some other stuff, including a brief video at ISO 3200 which was a lot less noisy than I was expecting.
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I shot a rolling shutter test for the dvxuser thread, or anyone else who wants to play... there is supposed to be quite an angle on the vertical line and I moved it fast enough to achieve it.
Oh and I agree they don't have the bandwidth to read the whole sensor, but I really am sure I did see it somewhere (planning on buying the camera does aid memorising odd facts that come up). They should certainly be able to read two sensor pixels per video pixel and could do who knows what on-sensor combining to make those pixels. Maybe they just meant they used all the pixels in the 16:9 area with on-sensor combining, it is very clean and my initial ISO 3200 test is also looking okay.
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It's just I remember someone saying it did... but I can't find it again...
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I'm sure it's oversampling, the question is whether it reads the whole 42.5MP...
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I didn't even know the 5ds had the dual pixel thingy
very impressed by the quality
It doesn't have Dual Pixel AF, just Canon's latest Contrast Detect AF, which can be set to operate during video recording (as shown).
The second video you posted is using the Standard Picture Style BTW.
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It just used the Fine Detail picture style I was using for stills, so basically had a USM ("Un-Sharp Mask", which sharpens the image) applied to it. I was only interested in moire/aliasing so didn't bother with anything else (well, sensible shutter speed). If you actually wanted to shoot movies with it you'd use a different profile...
This one is hand-held and with the Neutral Picture Style (91MB, untweaked Picture Style - so can be better, note my total video shooting with the camera is these moire tests)...
https://vimeo.com/136118235(Oh and remember the video shown on Vimeo is 720p and you need to download the 1080p version.)
It still completely destroys my GH3 and GH4 for moire/aliasing when shooting 1080p... please note this was my entire point. I am very impressed over this single item though. Bonus points for anyone else shooting this scene with their camera-of-choice!!!
BTW here's the maximum amount of stuff you can have super-imposed on the screen. You can turn much of it off, pretty much item by item. The settings are as per the video except it had a different picture style - Fine Detail here - and it was shot at f10, which you can probably see was needed from the histograms...
(You can also optionally clean the screen, I recommend Spontex micro-fibre cloths.)
- kaylee and TheRenaissanceMan
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I moved it on one of the clips, but it really wasn't up to publishing (lack of stabilisation plus me trying assorted stuff). It was still miles better. I'll go there with a stabilised lens at some point (and a VND) and shoot some more. The difference was a lot. Really.
Time to step up - Panasonic GH5 must go 6K Super 35mm to compete in 2016
In: Cameras
Posted
The organic sensors are apparently due to appear in 2020, but possibly for automotive/industrial uses first.