Noah Yuan-Vogel

What are you shooting and what are your priorities in a camera package?  That scarlet seems overpriced... 

5 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Yeah it is an issue sometimes, but the A7s 1 & 2 are barely better. (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?303559-Measuring-rolling-shutter-put-a-number-on-this-issue! ) Which is why if you were to go Sony I would recommend the a7R 2. It has a great 1080p and 4K FF mode that gives decent RS performance. Or you can use the Super 35 4K for best image quality. Again most of all I would try these cameras, they are both very different ergonomics and menus than your Canon.

Huh? How are the 1080p and 4k ff a7rii modes great? They line skip quite a bit so they have a lot more aliasing and noise than 4k s35. A7rii is nice for 4k s35 but all other modes are inferior by quite a bit, which is why I traded mine for an a7sii which looks good in all modes. 

Hard to get excited about IS/OS/VC without seeing how it's implemented first. Some still lens stabilization is pretty unusable for video and some just needs to be tested carefully to be used within its limitations. Sometimes it's very weak and sometimes it's very aggressive with a very visible motion threshold. Worst is when it's in between and it's constantly disengaging... 

3 hours ago, Herb said:

I wonder what the hold up is getting an American distributor... They have one in Germany, right? Which company in the US would be the best Kinefinity representative?

I dunno they list a US distributor in LA on their website and I contacted them and they are pretty responsive thought the preorder process seems a bit messy which also makes me think I might be the only US preorder... Basically he told me to place and pay for a preorder online (it charged me shipping oddly) and then send him the confirmation so he can make sure I get the right camera and parts etc in my package when it ships, which seems pretty important given the lead time and costs of shipping replacement to or returns to/from China. It wasn't quite clear to me if they were just providing sales support and still drop shipping or would have stock of all the cameras and accessories in LA for quicker shipping and support. Perhaps they will if they gain a significantly larger market with Terra? 

Actually external recording might make noise worse since compression tends to naturally reduce noise because it is hard to compress. Raw would also be even noisier since there would be no noise reduction at all. 

33 minutes ago, Kristoferman said:

When I talked to the CEO yesterday, he said that the prores certification should be wrapped up within a month. 

It was a shame how tiny and unpopulated the kinefinity booth was at NAB. 

At least that means we'll be at the top of the preorder list

16 minutes ago, SR said:

What about length of battery life with the v-mount (v-lock?) batteries on the KINEback?

It says it draws 20w so almost 5hrs on a 95wh battery. But apparently it depends on your format and setting and monitoring mode, for example that's probably with low power 720p monitoring  enabled. 

Yes it does seem possible that maybe Kinefinity had Fairchild Imaging adjust the LTN4625A for their needs since the specs seem fairly similar, though it does seem adding photosites to go from 4.6k to 5K is surprising and not so easy to do.  It would be great if it was actually a slightly larger sensor given the more photosites.  The 5K does seem like the winner, and at a lower price.  Hopefully they get the color science and readout speed right on it.  I wonder what specifically it is that makes global shutter have less DR, maybe one of the gain amps has to be disabled which would make sense.

While the new Ursa mini improvements sound pretty nice, Kinefinity sure seems to have a more well thought out product with the size and modularity and power consumption and media etc. If they can bake LUTs and do good downscaled recording in camera and don't screw up the sensor they will have a camera for pretty much everyone...

Only thing RED has on them now may be Fool Control electronic focus...

Hmm so many questions missing from that live show interview.  And they really need someone who understands and speaks English better.  Only thing I got from that interview was that the 5k sensor does use dual-gain amplifiers.  Sadly Rodney Charters didn't understand the difference between dual-gain pathways and dual-exposure HDR as is a common confusion and the Kinefinity guy didn't seem to fully understand the confusion.  My guess would be that the global shutter mode can only use one gain amplifier and is more greatly limited in DR by the ADC as most single-amp cameras are, but it should still be able to take advantage of the sensitivity of the sensor by applying more gain as long as hardware gain is adjustable.  Gonna have to put in a pre-order, at least the $150 payment is refundable and will give me me a $500 discount if I decide to stick with it.

Looks like their preorder discount goes until the end of the month if anyone is thinking about a preorder. I certainly am... 

The part where the 5k sensor is coming in the fall and the global shutter is not worked out yet makes me sad

And I guess the idea is that the lower sensitivity in HFR is due to the lower sampling resolution from cropping or line-skipping?  Or is it something else?  It's hard enough to get enough for HFR but lower sensitivity makes it extra hard, but if it's just due to the same things that other manufacturers have to deal with but don't compensate for then it's just par for the course.  ie. RED/Sony should rate their 2K modes 1-2 stops slower to compensate for increased visibility of noise but they dont.

So many questions!

Is the 1080p monitor output full quality or aliasy and low quality? How much more power consumption is 1080p output than 720p? 
Can it downscale to record oversampled ProRes in camera?
Can it bake LUTS?
Does it still have "Golden" modes for binned RAW?
Is the new 5k sensor better than the 6k? Why are the DR specs sometimes higher for 6k and sometimes lower?
Any AF support?
Any tech support in the US?
What's the deal with the different gain and EI modes?
does the 5k sensor have improved rolling shutter vs the 6k? is the 5k global shutter option working on their 5k prototype?
Is it awesome?

Yeah certainly any physical limitations or internal limitations of the camera would be a concern and are as of yet unknown.  It still seems a bit impossible that they fit pretty much all the features anyone has ever asked RED for into a smaller lighter body for half the price and a third the power consumption.  But if they deliver then I wouldn't be too worried about resale value since the market for Kinefinity cameras will explode anyway.  Of course it would likely take 1-2 years for them to catch on as is the case with any new disruptive camera equipment.  Until then it's true I would worry about support and about sourcing additional bodies or owner-operators for projects, but fortunately I work in a location with a well sized market so it's never really that hard, but I could see it being a concern for people who don't live in big cities or in countries with big film/tv markets.

On 4/15/2016 at 7:33 AM, richg101 said:

BRAVO!   I sense a lot of the moaners will have gone quiet right about now.  this little sucker will fit inside forbes70!

Yes but what's the point if no medium format lenses will give you any image characteristics better than a FF35 lens on a FF35 or focalreducer+S35 camera??  (besides resolution, which disappears with a groundglass adapter)

I'm very close to canceling my Scarlet-W preorder in favor of a Kinefinity Terra 5K, but let's see what NAB brings first...

The EOSHD article make it sound like it's a 4K Prores camera, but it only does Prores in HD, you might want to correct that.

This doesn't seem like anything overly special compared to a Scarlet-W or Sony F55, except that it can do both analog gain and digital EI adjustments which no other camera does.  RED Scarlet-W has a slightly better sensor at BASE sensitivity but has trouble in low light, and F55 can adjust EI in CineEI or gain in Custom but never both so you are stuck with flexibilty or sensitivity.  This is the one feature that seems especially unique about the VaricamLT.  Unfortunately it still doesn't even do 4k 120fps like a Scarlet-W will or like my FS700+7Q has for a while...  Anyone know where specs/whitepaper on AVC-IntraLT etc is?  I can't seem to find it.  FS700+7Q still seems to be the only one that does 4k 120fps prores and can adjust analog gain and EI (using LUTs) at the same time (not to mention being able to use a speedbooster)... 

The Alexa's dual-gain sensor structure remains unique though AFAIK.

Actually my understanding is that BMCC and BMPCC both also use similar dual-gain pathways to overcome ADC noise limitations like Alexa.

Also it seems magic lantern has a dual-gain mode for the 5DMK3 in RAW mode that allows different gain for alternating rows.

I'm as excited as anybody over this camera, but one reality check: if this sensor is really as good as everybody's hoping, why is it showing up for the first time ever in a $2500 NEX body?  It just doesn't make sense from Sony's perspective. 

Or maybe it makes the most sense.  The stills camera market is much bigger than the pro camcorder market so there is the most profit and the best ability to reduce costs with much larger production runs, and dont forget they didn't even have to design a new body for this, they just re-used the A7/A7R body.  Why build 5 cameras at different tiers at 5x the R&D cost and greater production costs for several smaller runs, when you can make one amazing product that does 10x the business because it beats the competition and caters to many markets.  Why do extra R&D to build so many different cameras if they can build a camera head that no one doing photo/video can't afford not to have.  I mean it's a FF35 body that costs less than a 5D3 body and can take pretty much any lens ever made and has a proper XLR audio option and 4K output, not to mention possibly the best image quality to date?  Plus there is the added benefit that they might actually start to create exponentially more demand for E-mount lenses and other camera accessories if they capture more of the market.

I'm afraid if it ends up being too good it'll be tough to justify holding onto my FS700 just for 240fps HFR...

But you are right to some degree, there are a lot of claims that have yet to be verified and there may be limitations on what they were able to stuff into the small form factor or what they attempted to do for video if it has to also cater to the stills market.  We will know in a couple weeks.

You should be really careful with crop factors and f-stops.  It is misleading to say as you do that the "End result is a 38-75mm F1.2 zoom."  You have to qualify that to say the 18-35mm f1.8 lens with speedbooster on the BMPCC will have the equivalent FOV to a 38-75mm lens on FF35 and the DOF and sensitivity of a 12-24 f1.2 lens on S16, but if you want to give the full FF35 equivalent spec for the lens, you have to use the crop factor multiplier on both the focal length and f-stop.  So if you want to compare it to FF35, the FF35 equivalent is ~36-72mm f3.6.

 

This is not the dead of full frame. Metabones aren´t cheap. The EF to Nex adapter cost about 500usd. How much this one would cost? 700?

1000 USD camera + 700 adapter cost almost a full frame one...  (If you buy a 5d mkii is the same price...)

 

But the adapter is a huge step if you have some good full frame lens and want a new small body (to travel, etc...)

 

Metabones is not that expensive.  The Speed booster is $400 in adapters without electronics, and $600 with electronics (EF needs electronics to change aperture).