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Anaconda_

What flavour DNxHR for 1080i?

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Hey all,

At work, we recently added a whole load of Windows edit suits and in order to have files play nicely on both Windows and Apple we're switching from shooting everything in ProRes to DNxHR where possible. Otherwise encoding is ok, but time consuming. 

I shoot with an Atomos Assassin and realised when switching that I'm totally unfamiliar with the codec. I almost always shoot 4K internal for archive, and ProRes LT 1080i on the Assassin for a quick turn around. What's the closest alternative? Ideally ending up with something in an .mxf wrapper.

My options for 1080i are: DNxHR 220x, 220, 145, 36 - I'm assuming the 145 is the best option/match?

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We shoot tonnes. But it's also for broadcast where 1080i is the standard and we try to get the correct colour in camera, so don't need much more than what LT provides. 

We're cutting in Premiere, so the projects need to be able to be opened on both Windows and Mac. .mxf is to get away from quicktime I guess.

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Yeah QuickTime and Windows arn't exactly in love with each other LoL. Well I guess it depends on how little the Client is willing to accept. I know they archive most of the stuff also, so they aren't wanting 8k Raw that is for sure! Hmm. Yeah the 145 middle ground would be the best overall option going Avid. So yeah I think that is maybe your Only real option unless you want to buy a Hard Drive company!

From Avid's website.

"Avid DNxHD 145 8-bit media delivers very high HD

image quality while requiring approximately 20%

less storage capacity than 8-bit uncompressed

ITU-R BT.601 standard definition media"

 

Plus if a person can afford it, and that is a BIG if LoL, Avid is the way to go for Broadcast and Movie content. It's the standard of both industry's. Way out of my affordability.  :astonished:

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11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Plus if a person can afford it, and that is a BIG if LoL, Avid is the way to go for Broadcast and Movie content. It's the standard of both industry's. Way out of my affordability.  :astonished:

Oh man, tell me about it, I'd much rather be on Avid, but like you said, affordability to having running on 50+ suits. 

Then you also need to train those editors on it since most of them at my place have come from an FCP (not X) background. Premiere is basically the same, but Avid is a different kind of animal.

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Avid is Incredibly complex compared to FCP. But it has all of the VFX stuff people need.

There is probably a few people on here that use Avid, and hopefully chime in. I sure am not a wiz at Avid Codecs. :blush: I have dealt with them a few times years ago, friend of mine had it, and Tried to teach it to me..Gulp!

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19 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

After shooting some tests, I found shooting DNxHD on the Assassin gives me .MOV files anyway, so I might as well stick with ProRes and encode to our .mxf format. At least that way I can review them in quick look on my laptop after a shoot. Thanks for the advice @webrunner5

Yeah I THINK only the Blackmagic Video Assist versions will give you a .mxf wrapper. Never used one, but the specs say it might do it. It is Avid friendly. Yeah MOV. will be quicker because of less data usage. So yes you can get your wrapper. BM makes some damn nice stuff for a damn nice price. I Need to support them more often. We all do.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicvideoassist

From DPR.

Apple codecs

ProRes Proxy

ProRes 422 LT

ProRes 422

ProRes 422 HQ

AVID codecs
(in either Quicktime or MXF wrapper)

HD Codecs

DNxHD 45

DNxHD 145

DNxHD 220x

4K Codecs

DNxHR LB

DNxHR SQ

DNxHR HQX

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2 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

After shooting some tests, I found shooting DNxHD on the Assassin gives me .MOV files anyway, so I might as well stick with ProRes and encode to our .mxf format. At least that way I can review them in quick look on my laptop after a shoot. Thanks for the advice @webrunner5

No, I think you were right first time.  It's ProRes that is difficult to implement on Windows, not QuickTime files themselves (which work just fine in Premiere).  I'd learn about DNxHR flavours if I were you, as it is no longer just an Avid-facing format as far as I am aware.  I use CineForm as an intermediate codec, which works very well for me, but would add a transcode to your workflow that you probably don't want or need.

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2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I THINK only the Blackmagic Video Assist versions will give you a .mxf wrapper. Never used one, but the specs say it might do it. It is Avid friendly. Yeah MOV. will be quicker because of less data usage. So yes you can get your wrapper. BM makes some damn nice stuff for a damn nice price. I Need to support them more often. We all do.

we have the 4K Video Assist as our inhouse recorder, which I guess is why I assumed the Assassin would create those .mxfs. I have an Assassin that's my own, and I use more because I have more experience with it. I can use the Video Assist when I need to, but prefer the Atomos if it's there with me. I don't think it's worth getting the BM just for .mxf, but if they introduce 4K50p - that'll be worth the upgrade for other projects.

@Mmmbeats - I guess you're right, it just doesn't seem to have any benefits to the workflow right now. Can't hurt to stick with it though I suppose.

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11 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

 

@Mmmbeats - I guess you're right, it just doesn't seem to have any benefits to the workflow right now. Can't hurt to stick with it though I suppose.

As far as I know ProRes is not supported in Windows via any properly licensed means.  There are a few apps that convert or support it, but I don't think they use an official licence (from Apple) so it's all a bit dodgy. 

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On 31/3/2018 at 8:42 PM, webrunner5 said:

And DNxHR is only usable on Avid to edit right? Kind of limiting.

Nope, it is a platform agnostic codec, open and downloadable for free from Avid's website both for decoding and encoding -Premiere even has the presents for both .mov and .mxf wrapped DNxHD and HR-. In fact it is the closest to an industry standard. You can edit Prores on Windows without problem, too; it's exporting (encoding) that's not supported though there are "unofficial" workarounds.

23 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Avid is Incredibly complex compared to FCP. But it has all of the VFX stuff people need.

Can't talk about FCPX -not familiar- but FCP7 wasn't that different from Avid and Premiere's evolution has been a transformation into some "avidesque" NLE. I used Avid for some years don't find it any more complex than Premiere. In fact, the latter's advantage is that the full suite expands the NLEs functionality far beyond what Avid does. Avid has always been very good at server based workflows where the footage is server-stored and shared by several stations and in different stages of post production, which I suppose is why large post houses use it.

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9 hours ago, pablogrollan said:

Nope, it is a platform agnostic codec, open and downloadable for free from Avid's website both for decoding and encoding -Premiere even has the presents for both .mov and .mxf wrapped DNxHD and HR-. In fact it is the closest to an industry standard. You can edit Prores on Windows without problem, too; it's exporting (encoding) that's not supported though there are "unofficial" workarounds.

Yes but to use it you Have to use the Adobe Media Encoder. That adds another step, adding to render times. But you are right, it is possible.

This is a really good video on the plus and minus of Avid and FCP. It is long as heck. Avid cost Tons times more money than FCP.  Your are talking 2500 bucks for Avid.  But the main benefit is live trims in Avid, among others. But FCPX is closer to Avid than FCP7 is by far.

But most high rollers use Avid's complete system, computers and all that run up to 50 grand or more. The average person is Not going to use Avid.

https://screenlight.tv/blog/2012/01/27/avid-media-composer-6-vs-final-cut-pro-x/

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4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yes but to use it you Have to use the Adobe Media Encoder. That adds another step, adding to render times. But you are right, it is possible.

I don't think you do.  Never used the codec, but as it's fully supported I imagine you can just import the files like any other format.

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8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yes but to use it you Have to use the Adobe Media Encoder. That adds another step, adding to render times

No, you just "drag & drop" and edit natively, and export from Premiere -Premiere's export dialog is actually an integrated version of Media Encoder-. 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But the main benefit is live trims in Avid, among others

That has been available in Premiere for ages. It was Avid exclusive long ago, back when FC was great for students and Premiere was a buggy toy to cut home movies.

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But most high rollers use Avid's complete system, computers and all that run up to 50 grand or more. The average person is Not going to use Avid.

Again, that was in the past. As far as I know Avid is a software-only platform now. They just list the requirements or "certified parts" of the computer build, just like Adobe does -FCPX doesn't because Apple does not officialy endorse custom builds-. It is no longer necessary to have a supercomputer specifically buit for Avid since the required specs are pretty standard and its performance is scalable depending on the available "computing power" -though the ones listed on their website for "feature performance" are ridiculously high. A decent modern build would do. In fact, Avid have released a free basic version -Media Composer First- that has pretty much everything a non-advanced user may need and runs on a decent laptop.

Keep in mind that the days when Avid had no competitors on the pro level are long gone and that the power of domestic computers has evolved enormously! 10 years ago you needed at least a Matrox Digisuite system to edit DVCPro. Editing suites have become relatively affordable and that's why so many post houses went out of business...

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Well Avid still sells this. I doubt a Television Station is going to use a Apple Pro laptop to run the station. Or run down to Micro Center and get a top end box computer for gamers. Sure for Bob at home it works. For big time stuff, no. I have not used Premiere in 5 years, so now they have real time trim editing in it??

http://www.avid.com/products/avid-fastserve?promo_id=Homepage,enterpriseteaser,NAMMAvidFastServe,01252018&promo_name=AvidFastServe&promo_position=enterpriseteaser

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On 3/31/2018 at 2:42 PM, webrunner5 said:

What Video Editor you using? You must be shooting a Lot of material to use ProRes LT 1080i as your output? And DNxHR is only usable on Avid to edit right? Kind of limiting. That is the Only thing Broadcast takes?

Speaking of video editors, I thought this Pie Chart is funny but true from Philip Bloom.

http://philipbloom.net/blog/musicbedrelaunch/

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