Davide DB

When I opened the link I thought the most alarming thing in the video is that how fast Jeromy is gaining weight! Then I saw a comment by a random user claiming to be former employee, was making fun of him referring to his smoking of white powder in his office, which CineD deleted. But the real sad part was the technical subject. When asked about the future, or "why people should buy your next product?" in a polite way, he had no answer but "higher frame rates"! He can't explain why external recorder is needed, in this day and age that even a $2500 camera records 6k60p raw internally. He just begs the camera makers to add even higher fps to the specs that their own outdated 14nm chip can't handle, assuming they're stuck with that node forever. Here we have a CEO that doesn't know what to do next, and is very honest about that (probably because his tech bro vibe overtakes his financial ego). 
The reality is that hardware part of the industry is becoming like the Hollywood part. As we now have either $100m budget movies or $500k ones, and everything between is gone, you either get the high end most expensive gear, or get the cheapest available that is good enough. Basically SmallHD vs. any hard to pronounce Chinese brand. We can't have middle ground when someone who's supposed to make money from the middle ground can't tell us why it should exist. 
 
 

I was watching one of Canon's promotional videos and related BTS, and I was reflecting that Canon has always been very good at choosing its advertising materials. Its promotional videos are never dull.
In contrast, the Panasonic/Lumix promotional videos are on average terrible, and in general Lumix's marketing strategy is terrible.  I remember a video of the GH7 and I wanted to shoot myself in the balls because of how clichéd it was.
Of course I am talking about the artistic and communicative choices that are independent of the quality of the advertised product.
 
 
 
 
 

More (3.7x-10x) here or there.
 
Any takers already among us?

Fully agreed... Insta360 Ace Pro remains the king over here even before the new model people say is coming soon.

source

Maybe it's a huge BS buy it fits perfectly in our discussion 
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/i-missed-that-crazy-rumor-dji-and-huawei-partnership-withe-the-possibility-of-launching-a-new-mirrorless-camera-system/
 

You are asking a pastry chef to become a pizza maker.
No it doesn't work. These companies will die like this.
The market changes because someone else comes in from next door and routs everything.
That's what happened with Apple in the world of telephony.
None of Apple's current competitors in smartphones existed before the invention of the iphone. Look what happened to Nokia.
A company has to come in and break the rules from the outside. Current camera manufacturers are only capable of reiterating themselves. It is in the nature of things.
 
 

As I wrote here the problem is all in the marketing department that should be sent to Siberia immediately.
It is clear that these two products are aimed at a professional niche audience (evidently filling some broadcast market gap) since even the web pages are on the Pana pro site and not Lumix. No event, no influencers... Even the technical features are listed almost mysteriously. A sign that it is not aimed at the classic Lumix audience.
The problem is the timing.
You almost sneak out such a product while your entire Lumix user base has been waiting over a year for the new iteration of S1 models. Suicide. Now half your Lumix customers think you're finished.
I repeat: siberia, siberia!!!!
 
 

Announcement given half-heartedly. Almost as if they were ashamed. 
Panasonic's marketing should be fired on the spot.
 
 

Sorry, it has a lot of to do with the way the OS works. Its designed to handle a heavy and complicated OS system. The whole architecture is overkill for a dedicated camera in some areas, and underperforming in other areas. And remember all these 3nm ISPs are working with 10 bit images. Not 14 or 16 bit that your mirrorless chip is handling at fraction of a second. 
 
They don't design their own chips. They tell a ASICS/FPGA vendor what they need, and that vendor offer them one of their products. Nikon buys from Socionext. This giant company has TSMC as its 2nm partner. But doesn't make anything in its portfolio at cutting edge node. Because they don't need to, and will be expensive.
And iPhone 15 pro overheats shooting 4k, remember? 

Eric you are falling into the same mistake as many users in the comments quoted just above. 
Using a Snapdragon processor has nothing to do with the operating system used, which in the case of smartphones can be Android or IOS or other Chinese devilry. Canon is already using the same architecture for his camera processor.
Just as it has nothing to do with discussing classic sharing apps or anything else. Those are two completely different topics. 
Then we all agree that all camera manufacturers are light years behind in integrating their devices with the outside world. Until recently we only had the memory card and nothing else.
Perhaps the action camera manufacturers are a tad ahead. Gopro over all.
I still can't get my head around how in 2024 with my GH5MII I can't view videos on my phone without pulling out the card while with an ancient GoPro 5 I can. 

Hello everyone!
Check out this little musc video we shot on A74 with helios 44 and a 24mm Samyang Pancake. As the song builds up: if you do not have much time please jump to the third part of the video as that is the most energetic part. We shot three videos in 4 hours, so for this one we used approx 90 minutes. It was a lovely warm evening in Hamburg, something that is not happening very often.
Nevertheless the song is really nice so i want to share it here. As always feedback and youtube comments are highly appreciated.
 
P.S. still not loving Youtube compression.
 

Some of the comments on the PetaPixel story made my head hurt.  You're right that a lot of people seemed to think that moving to a smartphone processor would necessarily entail moving to a smartphone OS.  I don't actually have any feelings on the OS (though I would find using a standard smartphone UI to navigate my phone annoying so I'd hope they would put their own GUI on top of things).  I didn't realize Toneh actually commented in forums before seeing that (partly because I rarely, at best, read comments on anything).
Some of the comments in the Reddit thread were interesting, though.  I didn't realize that Canon was already using Arm in Digic.  If so, it seems like adopting a modern mass market chipset shouldn't be an enormous project (not minimizing, it'd still be a lot of work).  It really seems like using a general purpose smartphone chipset and bolting on some asic coprocessor for any of the heavy lifting that doesn't already have silicon in the smartphone chip would work out pretty great.  I can say from personal experience that I never saw any signs of overheating when rolling 6kp24 for a long time on a fairly small fanless Z Cam body - not even on hot days.
Anyway.  Armchair pontification aside, it'll just be a distant hope for the time being.  🙂

In the last two weeks I did film two horse show jumping events including the international one with most of the top riders in the world.
I also covered a track and field event with some Olympics athletes in not great lighting, I was there for photos, but I did play a bit on the B competition with some slow motion.

The good:
Battery life is quite ok (no grip), much better than R5c and it does not burn battery while not recording, I could keep my camera on while not filming. As I film a lot in 8k 50 RAW is a liberation to not need a cage + external battery + cables.... my only big complain about the R5c.

I find it a bit easier to expose with Clog2 than 3, I get less noisy shadow and better highlight, it seems to have a bit better DR. I was filming with both R5c and R5 II at the same time and the R5 II seems to show a tad better DR. Is not world changing but is noticeable.
AF is imo a big step forward for action/sports compared to R5c and R5. The fact that you can draw the area where you want to find faces and the way it tracks head looking forward, backwards and with helmets is quite amazing. It has the same feature and behavior in all modes/frame rates. 
C1-C3 presets super useful, I'm missing this so much on the R5c. Super quick to change from 8k RAW 50, 4k 10bit 100fps and 2k 10bit 200fps and back.
2k 200/240 in CLog2 with full AF is insane, nothing available that I'm aware close at this price.... quality is ok but more than usable imo. If you use a high shutter speed, you can easily use Resolve Motion Estimation to interpolate to 480fps. My athletes were super impressed by the image that they got.

Did not have any overheating issue but horse show jumping is always 1-2 min recording and 1-2 min waiting, and I don't film all the athletes but only the ones from the 3 teams that I cover so is not really a taxing scenario.
Is fully compatible with RS3Pro and Raveneye, I can start stop and change settings via the DJI Ronin app. R5c is partially compatible, I can start stop but cannot change settings. 

It has a tad faster RS at 8k 50 and is noticeable on panning that there is a bit less leaning of the obstacle's posts.
 
The bad:
Waveform cannot be resized, and you cannot assign a button for turning it on or off, even more funny is that you cannot add the menu item to mymenu... seems a last-minute addition that is unfinished. At least it does the job but once I have set the exposure it annoys me as I want to focus on tracking well the athlete.

I had two lookups 😞 while starting to film at 200fps, it did not happen (yet) in any other mode, I had to pull the battery. Funny enough I had also a lookup with the R5c while stopping a recording, fortunately I did not lose the file. Bad day? The two at 200fps seems too much but let see.
Not a big issue but the formats menu is a mess imo. Too many choices easy to mess it up. I prepare beofre the event my C1-C3 and never touch that messy menu.
 

Some slow motion examples, again tons of aliasing and a bit soft but what else give you good DR, full AF, at this fps in an affordable price?
 
No1 in the world at 240fps and interpolated at 480fps (sorry I left the audio track in 😞
Detail at 400fps interpolated (sorry I left the audio track in 😞
 
Track and Field 200fps


It can also take picture, at 30fps you can get a bit better timing, and it has better RS but not sure is worthed over the R5 for photo only:

Interesting. I didn't know that story.
 
Getting into the heads of Japanese executives is a feat of its own.
In theory Sony being in both markets would be the perfect candidate. I was looking at the specs of its latest flagship smartphone and it uses the Snapdragon 8 platform. Sony borrows the names of its “famous” technologies from other areas: “Bravia” display and S-Cinetone for video. 

The closest I know to it is Z Cam.  From what I read, their first camera, the E1 came from the founder working either for GoPro or for one of the GoPro clones.  He thought about taking an action camera chipset and pairing it with a better sensor and a lens mount - and that's exactly what the E1 is.  It has some sort of Ambarella chipset (A9?) (and that's also why some of the problems with it could never be fixed).
The E2 line moved away from that, but not too far.  Instead of designing their own chip, they still chose an off-the-shelf part from HiSilicon (which ended up causing some drama, as it seemed uncertain that more would get made when the US put restrictions on Huawei stuff).   It uses Arm cores and has some dedicated silicon for things like H265 encoding.  The Arm bits, at least, are 12nm - and that chip (and the E2 line) came out like 6 or 7 years ago.  It's also one of the reasons that Z cam were known for great battery life at release time - the entire package uses like 3w of power.
https://www.silicondevice.com/file.upload/images/Gid1549Pdf_Hi3559AV100.pdf
Judging by the few released specs of the new flagship V2 series, it seems like they are still using that chipset and still have features comparable to the rest of the cameras being released now.  So at least it seems to be possible to build successful cinema cameras using off-the-shelf parts, but you're right that there may be some big barriers for the established companies (though some of those barriers may be in their own heads, believing that they need to design their own)

Yes you are right,
I misread but still the data I posted confirms mine and also your thesis 😇
The idea seems straightforward, we should understand in detail how many of the features of a modern mirrorless camera would be implementable in a chip like the Snapdragon and which ones, again, in an external chip.
I'm afraid if no one has done that yet, it's not so straightforward. It would take the opinion of a techie insider on this technology. I don't think it's a licensing issue but there must be some detail we're missing.
The fact remains that the numbers in the mobile market allow for investments unthinkable for the photographic market.
It is worth noting that Sony is present in both markets. Although on the mobile sector it is practically unheard of. Yet even its latest Experia has 4K@120p 😉
 

Yes, you seem to be arguing with a point that is the opposite of what I said.  I said that camera makers should stop making their own dedicated chips.

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/mobile/snapdragon/smartphones/snapdragon-8-series-mobile-platforms/snapdragon-8-gen-3-mobile-platform

A google search tells me that this is a chip used in many of the most recent Android smartphones.  Some of these phones can be purchased brand new in the US.  Looking up some of the phones that use it, some cost about $700 for the entire phone including processor, memory, screen, battery, etc.  Some estimates that I saw online say that the chip itself costs about $200 - that's a small fraction of a $5,000 camera.
I am suggesting that instead of investing bazillions of dollars to design a chip as powerful as a Smartphone from 5 years ago, camera vendors could go buy an off-the-shelf processor similar to what is used in a modern smartphone.  Then they are sharing the bazillions of dollars of R&D expense with OnePlus, Samsung, Xiaomi, and every other integrator who puts that chip in their phone.  Why be powered by Digic X when you could be powered by Snapdragon 8 Gen 3?  If dedicated silicon is needed for some encoder or similar, build it as a coprocessor and connect it to the commodity chip.

Speaking of devil and that 5x miserable tele? In the meantime, Toneh has offered his vision and criticism:
 

It all sounds beautiful but it is not. The devil is in the details.
Making an 2 nm chip that allows you to do what an iPhone or an A7SIII, a Z9 or an R1 does costs bazillions of euros to design and build. And who pays for it? Us! And where are the profit margins? In the number of gadgets sold.
And here perhaps we are missing something:
Number of iPhones sold worldwide in 2023: 231 million units
https://www.statista.com/statistics/276306/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-fiscal-year-2007/
Number of cameras sold worldwide in 2023:
https://www.43rumors.com/nikkei-published-the-worldwide-market-share-2023-panasonic-and-om-digital-on-5th-and-6th-spot
So the magic 2nm chip shipped in 231 million iPhones (€1500) must be divided between the 3 million lucky Canon camera owners and 800,000 poor Panasonic users.

As I wrote here the problem is all in the marketing department that should be sent to Siberia immediately.
It is clear that these two products are aimed at a professional niche audience (evidently filling some broadcast market gap) since even the web pages are on the Pana pro site and not Lumix. No event, no influencers... Even the technical features are listed almost mysteriously. A sign that it is not aimed at the classic Lumix audience.
The problem is the timing.
You almost sneak out such a product while your entire Lumix user base has been waiting over a year for the new iteration of S1 models. Suicide. Now half your Lumix customers think you're finished.
I repeat: siberia, siberia!!!!
 
 

When I saw yesterday that you will now be able do do 4k120p ProRes on a phone, I imagined the shame being felt by any number of camera companies who claim they can't do it on their dedicated cameras.  Not sure yet how long the iPhone can roll 4k120 without overheating, but Canon should be making a face like the meme awkward puppet monkey right about now...
It's increasingly obvious that camera vendors should stop trying to build their own special magic chips (Bionz! Digic!  X-Processor Pro!) and figure out how to adopt current-generation smartphone processors.  Why build a dedicated chip on a 14nm process when you could build your system on a much more powerful chip that was built with 2nm that uses less power and runs so much cooler?
A lot of vendors should feel relief that the companies who have (so far) tried to blend phone and camera have done such a tremendously terrible job of integration.  Eventually somebody's gonna get it right.

@zlfan trying not to hijack the R5II thread...
 
 
The final short film
 
 
 

As I wrote here the problem is all in the marketing department that should be sent to Siberia immediately.
It is clear that these two products are aimed at a professional niche audience (evidently filling some broadcast market gap) since even the web pages are on the Pana pro site and not Lumix. No event, no influencers... Even the technical features are listed almost mysteriously. A sign that it is not aimed at the classic Lumix audience.
The problem is the timing.
You almost sneak out such a product while your entire Lumix user base has been waiting over a year for the new iteration of S1 models. Suicide. Now half your Lumix customers think you're finished.
I repeat: siberia, siberia!!!!
 
 

Announcement given half-heartedly. Almost as if they were ashamed. 
Panasonic's marketing should be fired on the spot.
 
 

Found this video the other day...  turns out that Japanese camera company made a camera that catered to the Japanese, and (and this is the kicker...) the Japanese people liked it.  
Who knew?
He talks about the S9 specifically at 1:25.
The whole thing would be equivalent to GoPro making a camera for the US market, the US market really liking it, the US people buying it, and the Japanese people all talking in Japanese about how GoPro made a useless camera because no-one in Japan liked it. lol.