EduPortas

Really interesting stuff from the inside in this interview with Jarred Land.

As everyone can see, Nikon and RED have tremendously different working cultures.

This only confirms my suspicion Nikon will slowly dismantle the RED brand and absorb them organically

11 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Was this guy responsible for the genius idea of putting a CFE card inside Red mini mag and charge 10x? 

Possibly, but he's seeing first-hand the HUGE shakeup in RED and he decided to cut ties before the sheet hit the fan.

That in itself speaks volumes about the new Japanese work-culture that will be enforced sooner rather than later.

It's Nikon we're talking about. One of the most, if not THE most, hierarchical imaging company out there.

13 hours ago, mercer said:

I agree the lawsuit and the patent for Redcode was probably the driving force, but they didn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Red solely for the patent. They could have licensed it for 2 decades and developed their own cine line of cameras and lenses for less than that.

Other than the RedCode patent... what other tech does Red have?

They have an established brand in the high end cinema space and a lower tiered customer base that will pay top dollar to be a part of that brand.

Don't get me wrong, I love photographic history and I am a huge fan of Nikon. I own a small set of ai-s lenses and a small set of scalloped ringed non-ai lenses with the "C" coating. They're obviously one of the greatest photographic companies in history with an amazing lineage... in the photographic world. Until very recently, their video capabilities were lacking. It will take a while for them to gel with a lot of cinematographers... they'll just use Arri cameras instead.

Then again... I reserve the right to be completely wrong. 

Yep, the future will bring really interesting things to the video world.

Hopefully, with less expensive gear.

11 minutes ago, mercer said:

Doubtful.

Antiquated cultural practices aside, Nikon didn't need Red to create a lower tiered cinema camera. They bought a patent and a brand. A brand with a VERY loyal following in the lower tier and a loyal user base in the higher tier, Hollywood, cinematography world.

If they aren't, at all, interested in the brand, then they spent hundred of millions of dollars for a patent. Red doesn't make lower tiered cameras, but they can help each other.

If Nikon eventually dismantles the Red brand, it won't be in 2 years. Maybe in a decade after they gain the trust and reputation with the Red loyal user base and the Hollywood cinematography community.

I do think the Komodo could bridge the gap between Red and Nikon, though... with the OG Komodo being more Nikon with a new composite, user friendly design and the Komodo X staying truer to the Red brand.

But I think Nikon will use a "powered by Red" moniker, or something like that, in their higher tiered MILCs.

 

They bought RED bc of their tech, not their brand recognition. And the whole lawsuit entanglement, obviously.

I HIGHLY doubt they will juggle the Nikon brand with all its complexity AND a cinema line of cameras. 

That won't look right to investors. Nikon has been ruthless the last couple of years in trimming the fat. They finally made some gains bc the pushed new consumers upstream with the Z-Line. 

No way they'll let competitors (Canon in particular) use a Red camera with a Canon lens now. That's out the window ASAP.

On the contrary: they'll fortify the Z-Line and keep new customers there. It's all about the Z-Line and a new video branch in that ecosystem.

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

It would be utterly ridiculous for Nikon to absorb or abolish the Red brand, especially since they aren't natural competitors. They purchased Red for the Redcode patent so they didn't have to license compressed raw from Red or ticoRaw.

It's really that simple.

If they use the Red branding in any future Nikon release, who knows. If they decide to venture into the low tier cinema camera market, it will involve the Komodo and they won't change the name of it other than add Nikon to it somewhere. Maybe... Nikon CineRed Komodo. They won't take the Red name away, they'll just add Nikon. 

Not likely.

Japanese companies are famous for their anti-gaijin philosophy.

They don't like foreign company work-cultures. It's not their style of business.

RED has some good products but Nikon will always see them as a "lesser" brand, not comparable in pedigree to them or Canon.

Give it a two years and they'll dismantle the entire thing or suffer administrative chaos. They'll dump 99.9% of the work force in RED once they show them their big-brain stuff. After that, it's one cut after another to keep their stockholders happy and fortify the Nikon--not RED--brand.

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

What a bunch of non sense from people like you. Nikon has their own tech, the Z9 is superior to the Sony Burano 30k camera!!! They could build a Burano killer tomorrow with the z9 internals, they don't absolutely need RED tech if they wanted to go into the video camera world. But can you show me any of Canon, Panasonic or Fuji with even a tenth of that resumé https://www.red.com/shot-on-red. Please show us, I am sure Canon has be used on the likes of blockbusters like Dr strange, Spiderman, Aquaman, Guardian of the Galaxy, The Suicide SQUAD, The flash and some of the biggest TV shows like the Witcher etc etc. 

I will wait, to think their are some people who think a company will throw away such a legacy is just dumb. If you don't even know the basic of branding, why Honda who sells Civics, invested billions on an F1 engine, or Renaud doing the same while they sell Clio's. 

The people from Nikon have said not to expect anything Tomorrow, not because imbecile are going to say they will kill RED, but because it takes time. RED just released a 8k 120fps global shutter camera, vista vision camera. What do you think, they are selling Canon rebel 50, you think release cameras every six months. 

RED wil be integrated and the brand will disappear, friend. Don't be gullible.

That's how Japanese companies go about these things. You may like it no, but that's the way it works.

NIKON just fortified their brand with some cool video features. They don't NEED Red.

Don't believe me?

The Chief Design Officer at RED for 18 years just resigned.  He knows practically everyone will be let go once Nikon absorbs their tech-savvy and slowly let the RED brand rot.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/04/16/matthew-tremblay-chief-design-officer-red-digital-cinema-resigns/

As I said, Nikon has a long history as a brand and wants to capitalize on a new market (deep pocket influencers and some cinema buffs).

9 hours ago, kye said:

I agree on the focus on the influencer kids.

In terms of if Nikon should let RED die, that's a tough call.  They could retain the R&D benefits of the RED team (which is likely to have a very very different internal culture to the rest of Nikon and would be best kept separated) but without the RED guys talking directly to folks in Hollywood their ability to do R&D would be drastically reduced.

RED definitely are a minor player, but they're not without any contacts.

The plot thickens, my friends. Some Nikon excecs spoke to PetaPixel:

https://petapixel.com/2024/04/15/red-will-continue-to-support-canon-rf-but-nikon-is-considering-making-cine-optics/

In summary, they don't see themselves releasing a Nikon Z-mount RED camera in the near future.

So the writing is on the wall, IMO.

This all but assures they will slowly let RED cinema line dwindle away and introduce new gear with their Z-Mount the tech they adquiered from RED.

2 hours ago, kye said:

I agree that this is a huge market and definitely where Nikon should focus their attention, and an N-line of cameras would be a good way to do that, especially if it took advantage of the tech that RED has.

This doesn't really have much to do with RED making products for Hollywood though - that's a different brand making different products for a different market.  

Mass-market car companies do this all the time.  They use their tonnes of cash to buy an unprofitable sports-car company and get their techs to work on making hot hatchback versions of their cars, and perhaps a new premium line of sports cars under the mass-market brand, but they also help the sports-car brand to improve quality control and keep on making new models.  They don't just close down the sports-car brand.
Virtually all sports-car brands are owned by another manufacturer that makes family cars.

Yes, that's true.

However RED has been a minor player in the high-stakes Hollywood cinema production for some time.

ARRI and Sony seem have an iron fist on that market.

If were a Nikon exec I'd forget the Hollywood market altogether and focus 100% on the influencer kids with some new devices to make the brand cool again and throw a bone to the diehard photogs with new and improved video features in their MILCs.

23 hours ago, kye said:

Yep.  I think it's a matter of friction across an entire lineup, and if you start with a fixed-lens camera and want to "upgrade" then going to a MILC might seem a huge jump up but if your fixed-lens camera also has LOG then there's an "upgrade" right in front of you.  You switch to it, learn about LUTs and colour grading and having flexibility of the image in post.  Then when you want to upgrade your home setup (where size doesn't matter) the fact that you're already shooting N-LOG would be a factor in keeping you in the Nikon ecosystem.

Yes, we'll see what happens (or doesn't) in time.

I guess my thinking was this:

• RED is a huge amount more than just a patent, therefore
• When they bought it, they were buying something valuable that they didn't have
• RED has a bunch of knowledgeable people, a bunch of IP, and recognition and a track record in Hollywood

If Nikon keep the RED brand active then they could do a "best-of" situation, where the RED engineers and technology gets implemented across Nikons existing product lines, and the RED brand gets the benefit of Nikons extensive support network and R&D and manufacturing capabilities.  This would grow the RED brand in Hollywood and in the cinema camera market, which Nikon has zero market penetration of currently, and would help the Nikon brand in it's more premium products.

If Nikon let the RED brand die, then the Nikon line of products can still get the benefits of the RED tech, but any new Nikon products that target the cinema market will essentially untrusted / untested / unknown and apart from "it's got REDRAW in it" they will be a completely new player in this market.  

One thing I think that might not be well known is that a lot of folks in the "industry" have complete contempt and even hatred of the consumer brands and the entire DSLR revolution.  There's a very famous colourist who openly says that putting video into stills cameras was a mistake and they should take it out (yes, he maintains that the manufacturers should all REMOVE the video functions of all these consumer cameras!).

There's a thing where at the first production meeting of a movie there's a moment when someone asks what they're shooting on, and if the answer is ARRI / Alexa then everyone in the room relaxes.  Yes, this means that if they say RED then people don't relax, but if they say RED then at least someone can say "X, Y, Z were all shot on RED".  If someone said "Nikon" at that moment, the reaction might be "the photo people????".  

When you have industry people actively hating the fact that people are shooting music videos on GH5s, someone like Nikon are likely viewed as being from a parallel universe!

Yep, but there's some precedent.

Canon made a serious attempt at these pros with the C-Line. It's trying to do so and seems profitable.

But the REAL market is the digital crowd using pro-equipment but posting their content exclusively on social media. Nikon wants a piece of that delicious pie.

Their new products could be very un-camera like and cater to this new video market and maybe they'll even catch one or two pros in the process.

On 4/14/2024 at 1:39 PM, ac6000cw said:

Yes (and in the ZV-1 series), but it's only 8-bit S-Log2/S-Log3/HLG, not the 10-bit version available in the newer and higher end cameras.

I think from a branding perspective, Nikon might use the RED name in the way Panasonic uses Leica and Sony uses Zeiss branding to 'elevate' the higher-end products a bit. And of course DJI have apparently owned the majority of Hasselblad for some years (but don't seem to have made much use of the branding potential of it).

That seems possible to the very niche video guys, but I highly doubt it.

Again, it's a cultural thing. Neither Canon nor Nikon are big supporters of fragmentation. They are vertical and hierarchy plays a BIG role.

8 hours ago, kye said:

Maybe.

It would be a bit silly though - the brand recognition was part of the value of the company.  BM is having a difficult time breaking into the cinema ecosystem despite having brand recognition for Resolve, so Nikon buying one of the "big three" brands that was being actively used by Hollywood, and then putting it in a drawer seems a bit counter productive.

Guess only time will tell, friend.

I agree that Red has brand recognition, but only with a very specific subset of the imaging crowd.

Nikon has A LOT more recognition from almost everybody, from the absolure noob to the hard-core pro.

And, let's be honest, Nikon was already hitting home runs with their new lenses and video features with pro-photogs. Now they WILL go full-hog with the video guys. That's the new slice of the imaging pie.

Integrate, fortify the brand (Nikon) and capitalize on a new growing market.

Hence, my original snarky comment about Red's Dead with no sight of Redemption.

50 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'd suggest Nikon needs something a heck of a lot cheaper than the Z9 to capture the TikTok / IG / YT crowd. 

What I'd suggest is a pair of cameras:

Nikon N3 (i.e. a Nikon FX3, and priced as such), put basically a large format Komodo into Nikon's spin on a FX3 body (i.e. it's "mirrorless" but with a better design for filming with, such as more mounting points, TC input, a built cooling fan, etc)

Nikon N30 (i.e. a Nikon FX30, and priced as such), put basically a Komodo (but sticking with S35, rather than going with LF) into Nikon's spin on a FX30 body (i.e. it's "mirrorless" but with a better design for filming with, such as more mounting points, TC input, a built cooling fan, etc)

What there needs to be is a very smooth transition from the low end no budget shooters all the way up to the highest-end productions. 

Sony is dominant partially because they've done this so very perfectly, for example a person could easily do this progression of cameras (either buying or renting them along the way as they progress):

Sony ZV-E10 (or even older cheaper secondhand models such as a Sony NEX5 or whatever) => FX30 => FX6 => FX9 => VENICE 

Canon sort of almost did this themselves, which also contributed to their dominance as well before Sony took the throne, such as back in the day:

Canon T2i => 60D => 5Dmk3 => C100 => C300 , with just the absolute very top end of the market after the C300mk1 was lacking from Canon back then. 

It's actually even worse now for Canon as they have with the RF Mount (example step stones here for a path of progression for a new user):

Canon R100 => R10 => R6 => R5 C => C70 => ....nothing???

To have the RF Mount range of cameras for filmmaking from Canon max out at only the C70 level (which is a lot lower than the C300 was positioned at, relatively speaking back in the day) is a problem for Canon. I assume if a C300mk4 ever comes out, that will have a RF Mount and partially fix this issue? But Canon still lacks any answer for the VENICE (or BURANO). 

Nikon has a massive opportunity to do here something that only Sony has currently, have a perfectly seamless upgrade path from the cheapest entry level camera for your kid, all the way up to the cameras used on the biggest Blockbuster AAA Movie Titles, with no gaps along the way where users might drop out and be lost at. 

It's not just about career progression either, you're also making it easier for a mixed bunch of users to work together. 

I'm shooting a short film on a FX9 and I've got a mate starting out who has a FX3 who wants to come along to shoot a 50/50 mix of promotional BTS footage and B Cam setups for the film itself? Perfect!!

Or we're filming a feature film on a couple of VENICE cameras but we've got a big action day where we want heaps more cameras to get all the coverage we need? (especially if there are crashes/explosions, it might be a one time only opportunity to capture these moments for the films) No problem! We rent out all the available FX9 bodies available locally to be the C / D / E Cams, and we buy half a dozen FX30 bodies (or even Sony RX0 cameras!) to position strategically to be crash cams (if we lose the cameras, no big deal! So long as we can salvage the footage from the SD cards). 

Or maybe a director is scouting locations or shooting rehersals with their own FX3 camera, and they capture some perfect magic lightning in a bottle moment that they wish to include those few seconds worth into the edit of the main timeline that was shot with VENICE cameras, again this is once again a lot easier thanks to all being kept in the Sony family. 

Or any of zillion other examples. 

If Nikon has all future REDs have a locking Z Mount, and their mirrorless cameras using redcode, and doing everything else they can to make the transition between them as smooth as possible (similar UI where possible, built in looks shared across them, etc) then Nikon can create a huge advantage for themselves. 

You said it man, Nikon N3 and N30 are practically a given.

That's would place them in a very attractive position for these new "professional content creators".

1 hour ago, kye said:

I think that @Danyyyel makes a good point about the reputation and brand recognition of RED, so I suspect they will keep that in tact.

However, a Nikon N-Line is completely possible.  The growth of TikTok etc as video-centric platforms is absolutely true, but I don't think that the cameras that RED currently offer are really where the action is.  If you want to make a line of cameras that are designed for shooting for social media, I'd imagine that this new N-Line would be:

• MILC cameras with serious video features (like the Z9) all the way down to some select "creator" cameras with fixed lenses (like the G7X or Osmo Pocket 3 etc)
• Log // RAW shooting - potentially with REDRAW because why the hell not?

That would mean that Nikon would overhaul their own product lines to have better video (assisted by the techs and technology from RED), a new N-Line with video-centric and ease-of-workflow features, and keep RED as the professional cinema line for working professionals.

Currently the market seems to have two kinds of cameras - hybrids for amateurs and cine cameras for working pros.  The gap is that the market also contains a huge number of "professional content creators" who are working professionals but have completely different needs to the amateurs and also the video professionals, which is why we lament the poor / limited / crippled functionality of the hybrid cameras and also lament the lack of flexibility in the cinema camera product lines.

Red's dead, bro. I highly doubt they will ever release ANY new camera.

Japanese companies don't operate that way.

Maybe not now, but soon enough they will start to slim the American arm until everything is 100% integrated in the new and profitable Nikon N-Line.

3 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

I don't see it at all in this way. Nikon tried and tried setting a foot in the video world and just never could even with the best hybrid cameras to date. With the acquisition of RED, they just kicked the door open. I mean they went from nobody, to the company that can boast the last "The Flash, Dr Strange and squid game were shot on their RED cameras". They have gone where no Canon or Panasonic camera has gone before... So, this is why I don't see them getting rid of the RED brand for the foreseeable future.

Even more so that they don't want to lose that very specific Hollywood user base. Their luck is that the latest global shutter 8k vista vision (larger than full frame) sensor camera, will ensure them some time as it will have a following in the action and VFX heavy movie market. 

So my guess we will see the Nikon mirrorless cameras that will cater for the lower end of the market, with the likes of z6iii to Z9 having redcode raw, color science etc, and above that, newer models of Komodo to Vraptor, with Nikon blazing fast autofocus and Ibis, that would make them very competitive against the likes of Sony. As nikon already has not only the tech, but also the volume and infrastructure. What I mean in terms of volume is that the xspeed 7 chip in the Z9 already can do 8k 60 fps raw, with the autofocus, blazing fast viewfinder and IO, in one chip running is a dslr style body!!!! As jarred himself said, it is very very powerful. This could replace the ASIC chip that cost 50 millions for red to produce for just some thousands cameras. The Xspeed will be produced for millions of cameras and is already in the 2000 USD ZF camera. They also have their professional NPS system, that could get service to RED owners around the world. 

So my only question is if Nikon will produce a FX3 style of camera. That is one that is about same price as a z8 camera. Or will they have Nikon mirrorless 700 USD to 5500 USD, and Red Komodo 6000 usd to V-Raptor X 30 000 usd. I don't see the RED brand disappearing for at least decade if ever. It could be the genesis of Toyota. 

 

I think the only thing that's more or less certain is that Nikon will try to move user upstream and pay MORE for the privilege to use de RED Codec.

I don't see them including this tech in their lower-end MILCs. Time to pay up.

It's safe to asume photography has taken a back-seat to video.

Yeah yeah ppl take lots of (crappy) photos each day, but the real growth is basically in video: TikTok, Instagram reels, Twitch and YouTube.

Those are videocentric social media platforms that people have embraced and nothing seems to be able to stop them.

I think Nikon will aggresively try to capture this market with new N-Line devices.

We're talking amateur and pro-gear with high-quality codecs and lenses. These devices will NOT be designed in the mold of photographic cameras of Nikon.

They will be an entirely new line that will merit a new badge like the C-Line cameras from Canon.

Video gear for a video centered world.

In about a year we'll see the first Nikon N-Line camera.

11 hours ago, kye said:

The entire answer is that it has a fan, despite being tiny.  It doesn't need to act as a heatsink because it has a fan, and if the BMMCC can have a fan, then any small camera can have a fan.

Do you think that adding a screen and EVF and a handle to the BMMCC would take it from shooting for 24 hours straight in 120F / 48C to overheating in air-conditioning in under an hour?  Of course not, because..  it has a fan!

It was also considerably cheaper than many/all of the cameras being discussed here.

But it's not even just about having a fan..  even without one, there are cameras with much better thermal controls around.  
I routinely shoot in very hot conditions (35-40+C / 95-105+F) and have overheated my iPhone, but have never overheated my XC10, my GH5, my OG BMPCC, my BMMCC, or my GX85.  All this "it's tiny so it overheats in air-conditioning" just sounds like Stockholm Syndrome to me.

You're totally right, friend. That makes all the diff in the world for such a small device.

4 hours ago, kye said:

The BMMCC that did that recorded for 24 hours straight in 120F / 48C was smaller than almost any other MILC.

There are no excuses.

Hmmm. Not really comparable since the BMMCC has no LCD or EVF.

It's a cube that functions as a heatsink and makes huge ergonomic sacrifices vs any decent MILC or DSLR.

On 3/7/2024 at 1:17 AM, kye said:

 

I think that overheating is now officially the camera boogyman.

Sceptical of overheating in general? I've personally missed moments when my iPhone overheated........and that's a camera that no-one has identified as having a thermal management problem.

Pretty sure the size of the camera is the big culprit here. Sony's tend to be smaller devices and lots of them overheat. This is well established ten years plus after the first A7 came out.

My Z50 gets hotter than a young female American tourist in Cancun during Spring Break while recording just 10-15 minutes of 4K in an indoor setting. Again, it's a smaller device.

So if you want more reliability you're going to have to chose a bigger camera. DSLRs rarely ever overheat. They are bigger units, in general. Most of them have recording limits, yes, but overheating was not a problem just a few years ago. Bigger MILCs like Pannys don't experience this problem.

On 3/4/2024 at 11:09 AM, luka3rd said:

Exactly! It's terrible... 

Jeez that sucks bro. Hope you found a way around it.

9 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

"Worse" is subjective. What's worse for you might be better for me, and vice versa.

Ay caramba!

It's real easy: "worse" means the technical aspect of the film makes it harder to watch bc it distracts you from the story.

That's why 24fps is the standard for cinema. If you're willing to deviate from that standard you better have a very good reason to do so.

The Hobbit DID NOT have a valid reason for doing this 48p stuff. None. Jackson learned this lesson the hard way.  

On 12/2/2023 at 3:44 PM, Jedi Master said:

That's a defeatist attitude that will impede progress.

When The Hobbit came out a few years ago, some people were ready to break out the pitchforks and torches and march on Hollywood, but I loved it--those movies looked much better to me than the typical 24 FPS stuff.

I guess you're in the 1% who actually liked the horrendously artificial movement fluidity of the movie.

And that's coming from a guy who has read every Tolkien book and movie ever produced (yes including the animated ones).

The contraste between the CGI and the real-life characters of The Hobbit is jarring and imposible to "un-see".

Progress is great except when it makes something worse, friend. 

9 hours ago, zlfan said:

24p is hailed as cinematic. it was just a frugal approach at the time of film days. 

5k 60p of gp 12 is so smooth. seeing is believing. 

No.

60p = sports

30p = TV

24 = cinema

Sorry Tony, some things will never change. 

One of the weirder moves in the YouTube sphere lately.

Prob some kind of lawsuit by an ex-employee or something, seeing the way the channel imploded was not amicable at all. Management, talent, producers, the new guys. It was all really embarrassing considering they were one of the premier tech channels out here.

They basically deleted their history as a brand (no one really visits their site, and if they did it was thanks to the YT channel).

We'll see.

On 10/19/2023 at 9:46 AM, Andrew Reid said:

I was thinking the other day about how almost all lenses look best wide open.

[...]

Modern fast lenses were originally requested by journalists. Specially zooms.

At large apertures you solve two problems:

1) Poor lighting 

2) Unpleasing backgrounds usually encountered at press conferences, the average street, and most offices. 

The "cinema look" was not even a thing in video up until about 2010, since most video productions were a variation of journalism: documentaries, long form news stories, tv broadcasts. All of those requiere deep DOF about 99% of the time.

As you say: if you know what you're doing you actually want to show the background of your shot. Say, asking your subject to stand for the interview in front of the coffee shop were most patrons are visible vs. asking the interviewy to stand in front of a wall of the coffee shop.

So the question is: ¿does this particular background need to be softened or not?

I'm confused: just recently I recorded ON CARD while doing clean HDMI out from my now ancient 7D Mark II to a cheap monitor. My low-tier Z50 can also do clean HDMI without a problem.

Like a lot of people around here I do this just for monitoring reasons since I don't like to fiddle with external recording devices. Internal codecs recorded on SD cards are fine for me.

You're telling us one of the most expensive Canon cameras CAN NOT perform this basic function?