Andrew Reid

Not even AI can do that 🙂

I know I wang on a lot about the Z8 but if any camera underscores exactly where Panasonic have gone wrong, it's that one. 1. Nikon have formed a close custom-sensor relationship with Sony Semi. Panasonic have not bothered, they have gone in as a customer taking stuff off the shelf. 2. Both Panasonic and Nikon have had to start afresh with a new mount. Panasonic had a head start. The L-mount Leica SL came out ages ago. Yet it is Z-mount that attracts me most, as a long-time Panasonic and Micro Four Thirds user. Why is this? The Leica-M mount autofocus adapter from Techart. The Megadap Sony E-mount adapter. The complete lack of any requirement for me to suddenly invest trillions in native mount lenses. Thank you Techart and Megadap. Thank you Z-mount for having the physical and technical attributes that make it so flexible. 3. $3000 mint condition used camera vs $3600 new. OK, so the extra $600 gets you an S1R II but there's no point because it's worse than the $3000 mint condition camera. That's partly because of point 1. Panasonic's off the shelf sensor is behind what Nikon put out 3 years ago with the Z9 which formed the basis for the cheaper Z8. 4. Need and desire issues... I don't exactly have the creative need for what's on offer from them. Again that comes down to the fact that the Z8 and Sony a7r V exist and have done for more than a year! 5. Loss of unique selling points. Again, apart from anamorphic modes, Panasonic don't have much that isn't offered elsewhere. Even Fuji has open gate now. 6. Autofocus. It's been a shitshow. The late introduction of phase-detect AF has softened the blow a bit but it still doesn't work reliably enough. Especially with adapters like the Sigma MC-21. 7. Internal RAW codec situation is iffy. ProRes RAW has crazy large file size and there's no other choice. Panasonic should have at least licensed BRAW for it. Again the comparisons here with Nikon are relevant, due to the REDcode patent situation where clearly Nikon have the upper hand in future development of internal RAW video codecs. 8. Marketing. The Z8 is not pigeonholed with an H, an R, or an S. It is clearly a D850 replacement. This means flagship performance for less money than one. Now this is a philosophy Panasonic have clearly tried with the S1R II and in terms of the specs sheet they have almost succeeded in matching Canon's 2020 model, even down to the overheating. 9. Marketing. The S1R II is sold as a hybrid, when it is the S1H which is supposed to be the hybrid. The S1H Mark II release date continues to be highly speculated at, so why would I buy the S1R II for hybrid use if it might be made obsolete in 6 months by an S1H II? 10. Marketing. When the social media brigade were jetted out to catch hypothermia in Norway, I was not kept in the loop as a long time high profile Panasonic customer, and it was the same for the GH7 launch and S9. I can't help but feel a little bit personally insulted by not so much even a demo camera to try at home, or an email with someone saying Hello, or perhaps an offer to do some feedback / interviews. Point 10 however in no way makes me more or less biased when it comes to the objective reality that Panasonic are fucking up.

My Dear E it is sometimes hard to understand what you mean. Do you mean Blackmagic are a synonym of Leica/expensive? Surely not. Blackmagic Pocket series is made of hardened polyester, and has the fun factor of a wheelie bin. Whereas the Sigma Bf is as if Apple themselves have entered the full frame market.

How's the autofocus in video mode with that jolly combo? I used to have the 32-64, it's a spectacular lens, virtually flawless. Is there a Super 35mm / clear image zoom crop style mode? I know, a bit silly on a GFX camera but curious if you can use some anamorphic adapters on there with a crop.

I think Panasonic just need to show a bit of creativity and throw a bit of weight behind the new stuff, they have clearly had to deal with some budget and R&D cutbacks, also perhaps the retirement of some of the old guard engineers from the earlier days. The marketing and product strategy is the biggest problem though, from my point of view. The lenses side is a disaster. It's so important to get this right when establishing a new mount. Mistakes too numerous to mention with L-mount, with the latest being the S9 launch with a pinhole F8 lens rather than waiting 2 months for the compact 16mm zoom to be ready to sell with it from the off. In terms of creativity, they've spent too long trying to imitate Sony's product strategy but in a weird way. So the S1 was to be the 'basic' model like the a7, except now it isn't... So the S5 came along instead, and the S1 appears to be dead. Imagine if Sony had introduced the original a7, left it there on the shelf for 5 years and then replaced it with an a5? Instead Sony built a big system around one badge... a7 is now a huge range of stuff. a7r, a7c, a7s, and the flagships are different numbers so you can tell that they're different. a1 and a9. Right down to the "R" models, and an a7s type model for video (S1H) Panasonic has tried to mimic the basic strategy of the a7 cameras but mishandled the implementation. For a start the S1H should have been "Cinema Lumix" branded so people understood it had cinema features not just video. Still missing from the range are any a7c rangefinder style bodies, R or otherwise! We have the s9 but it isn't equipped with an EVF. The S1R Mark II is NOT a bad camera. I repeat NOT. Neither is the S9, it's great fun. It is the circumstances around them which are the problem and I believe will kill its chances on the market vs other brand options both new and used. I also think that if you're going to start finally after 7 years also copying the sensible Sony approach of unified ergonomics and similar body designs / sizes aka Sony a7 III vs a9, or a7 IV vs a1, and now the latest evolution with the a9 III and a1 II, don't fucking use your cheapest most uninspired-to-use entry level body as the basis for this. Yeah, yeah I know Sony started the same way, but this was in 2012! The standard of Sony's rivals to the S5 and S1R now (the a7 IV and a7r V) are at a much higher level than the entry level 2012 a7 / a7r series, they're a decades worth of evolution. Panasonic has only evolved the S5 body once, and now the S1R II is lumbered with it a gen 2 design when it should by now have been a gen 4 or 5. That is to say, the S1R II should have evolved from 2018 onwards from the original flagship, NOT a pause and THEN stuffed into a mid-range body. It's the same with the G9 II... Great camera, great spec, totally uninspired body design with angular sharp edges and weird button placement. Rear jog dial is also shite. This is the sort of thing the Japanese kaizen is supposed to iron out over the years. They are not like Apple where they come out with a really strong design straight off the bat, they are iterative designers. Considering Panasonic started with mirrorless cameras before anybody else, they have had enough time to refine things. But I think the problem is they have chopped and changed so often, it's as if they start from scratch every few years. Let's consider the evidence... GH1/GH2 - lovely small intuitive cameras, and yeah, filmmaker's kept saying they were like toys, too much plastic but could have evolved into something really nice with the same compact design, just with higher quality materials and an AF joystick. The basic layout was fantastic. Instead they were COMPLETELY thrown out for the GH3 / GH4 body design, the 'pro' DSLR look. OK fine, so this was 2013 and now you have 10 years to evolve a set mirrorless camera concept... but no. These evolved only once into the GH5 which was a lot better but then they chucked that out as well and started again with the clunky GH6, thick vents and all. And look at the G9... Why throw out the original design for the S5 body? They have scrapped more camera concepts than Fran in Barcelona.

Sony made Canon users switch in the DSLR days in huge quantities. It can be done. The amount of Metabones EF adapters sold was extraordinary. They were EVERYWHERE in 2014-18. Now it is harder to switch from some mounts to others. And I'm afraid it's harder to switch to L-mount than others. This is because with Nikon Z-mount you can bring the Sony lenses over and they work perfectly. You can also bring the Canon EF stuff over to Sony and Nikon, again perfect with a Metabones, Sigma MC-11 or Fringer. The EF lenses on L-mount forget about it. They work terribly. The reliability is wonky even on the phase-detect Panasonic bodies. That's with Sigma MC-22. L-mount even makes it difficult for existing Panasonic users to switch to Panasonic. Micro Four Thirds anyone? Ah yes. This makes sense. I don't agree I'm afraid on this however, the best value is Sony. You can get an a7 IV for S5 II prices and it's a far superior camera in terms of beginners who need reliable autofocus and cheap lenses like the Sony FE 28mm F2. LOL you can't say that it makes no logical sense to say that because some prefer new, used prices are irrelevant. It is very relevant to a LOT of people. My Z8 has a shutter count of 600 and is mint. A far better deal than spending $800 more on a new one. I agree it's about the system, and lenses. Not one camera will spring them into pole position. But wait a minute... Panasonic WERE in pole position once upon a time in mirrorless land. They had 100% market share with Micro Four Thirds before Sony came along, and then the rest. That system, Micro Four Thirds was the textbook example of a good camera ecosystem. Wide range of lenses at all price brackets. Huge range of third party lenses - Sigma, Voigtlander, Tamron, SLR Magic. Very attractive camera and lens prices, good bang for buck. The timing and rhythm was far better too. In the earlier days we had a new GH series cameras every 2 years. Firmware updates have never been a problem for Panasonic, they bang them out with enthusiasm. But it's the full frame era where they have lost the plot. Even when the original S5 came out (2021 was it?) I had the feeling that they should really have done an S1R II in reply to the EOS R5 a year earlier. That they have left it to 2025 is just nuts.

The business case is pretty good. I think $2k for a boutique unique concept camera is pretty decent, considering it's obviously going to be made in smaller quantities than most cameras at $2k, with higher quality materials too. If it were Leica they'd be charging $5k for it. Also a lot of people, myself included are quite hungry for pocket sized full frame cameras. Otherwise the Leica Q3 would not be doing as well as it is. And they are FUN. The Sigma BF is quite unique, it's not got a lot of competition. The Panasonic S9 is quite different, it doesn't have the artisan looks or handling, or the high quality workmanship, or the innovative control scheme and it doesn't have the uniqueness either. What it does have is IBIS and a very competitive price. The Sony RX1 / RX1R originals are very nice, but both have a very old sensor and old autofocus. It's contrast detect and the video mode is as primitive as it gets. The RX1R II meanwhile is the same price as the BF used, and although it has a 4K capable sensor only heavily line-skipped 1080p is enabled. The Leica Q series are all more expensive than the BF, Q2 and 3 by a considerable amount... i.e. up to 3x more!! Yet the BF is more versatile due to the interchangeable lens mount. The X100 VI is another competitor, which also goes for around $2k due to the hyped up demand and shit supply. But it ain't full frame. If the 6K video on the BF is at least as good as the Panasonic S9, then out of the RX1R II, Leica Q2 and X100 VI, it takes the cake for image quality. Although I'd have to compare it to the Q3 more closely I dare say it has some advantages on that as well especially in low light. Only downsides for me are: The missing IBIS and EVF. The seemingly missing Sigma Fp-L video features like Cinema DNG. But the BF does have a real H.265 10bit LOG profile finally, rather than just Flat as with the Fp cameras which somewhat makes up for lack of raw.

Just came across this while searching for a C-mount adapter for the Nikon Z8. https://www.amazon.de/-/en/BORYOZA-FX-Z-AF-Adapter-Fujifilm/dp/B0CPBRTMTX/ Crazy if that works as well as the Sony E-mount adapter from Megadap / Techart, with full AF and electronic control.

I agree it's not entirely fair to compare new to used but it's a reality of the market, if you had the chance of a better spec for less money, and it was in mint condition, you'd consider it and so would I. Anyway let's compare new. New Nikon Z8 is currently $3396.95 at B&H, and 3600 euros in Europe inc. EU 20% VAT. The S1R II is $3299 at B&H and $3599 in Europe (including tax) So the new S1R II is not really meaningfully cheaper than a new Z8. But it's a worse camera in several important ways. Although you do get open gate and anamorphic modes. True, if you see it in isolation to the competition (new or used) and just come at it like you are as a Panasonic user, as an upgrade to an S5 or the original S1R then it's a decent upgrade. The original S1R however it must be pointed out is now almost SEVEN years old, so that's a long time to wait for an updated sensor and codec.

That's one of the most elegant solutions I've seen for a while but it still can't quite shrug off the Frankenstein feel. The extra lens still needs to be carried around in a separate pocket and not rubbing against keys or wallets. And if I have an extra pocket I'd rather a Sony RX1R be in it.

It's true that the 100 megapixel sensor is a bit overkill, the 50 would have been a good sweet spot for an 8K/4K medium format camera with even better low light performance than the GFX 100. I am hoping they get a new fast stacked 50 megapixel sensor out... But I question whether medium format users demand the speed.

You talk about this narrative as if it's some Fox news propaganda, I am not pushing anything, the logic speaks for itself. Low sales figures speak for themselves. The business logic is that Panasonic simply can't continue like this, they must change and do something about their marketing and product strategy. The Panasonic Microwave Camera is not enough to take sales away from the others. If they are still on under 3-4% market share after another couple of years, that's one activist shareholder meeting away from curtains. They have already fucked up with some of their most loyal users, I am not the only one to switch to Nikon, or Sony, or Canon or Fuji due to the S1R II being in a mid-range body design, with previous features taken away, with a sensor slower than what the competition had 5 years ago at the same resolution, and an autofocus engine which is as far behind the cutting edge as their lens ecosystem is.

The deal is done, thank you Foto Meyer Berlin. Sold some stuff, as I realised I didn't need it anyway as the Z8 does it all, pretty much. Z8 has been out about a year already, which is crazy. Still I think 3099 given it's still current is quite generous. Like many of you guys I was waiting to see what Panasonic would come up with after so long. But the S1R Mark II is not for me and S1H Mark II remains missing. I won't pay $3.5K / 500 euros more than the used Z8 for a cost-cut S5 body, no top LCD, worse AF, worse rolling shutter, and a worse mount. Also the S1R II internal RAW codec bitrates are too massive, ProRes RAW only, no 700Mbit custom RAW format like Canon/Nikon are offering with Canon RAW Lite and N-RAW. Although hey, at least Panasonic has internal RAW unlike Sony! Z-mount is equal or better than L-mount for many reasons, primarily: Megadap Sony E mount adapter opens up the entire Sony range of which there is a lot plus allows Sigma full frame lenses in by the back door. Lovely 35mm F2 is small and perfect for Z8. Also the Techart Leica M autofocus adapter is IMHO a must have, and this ain't available in L-mount. Plus Sigma APS-C lenses are in Native Z mount anyway so when I need to go for a very small zoon, 18-50mm F2.8 fits the bill perfectly and the Z8 has enough resolution in Super 35 mode to do it justice. I could not wait another 12 months to 7 years for a Panasonic flagship. S1H Mark II might be really nice... who knows. They're not communicating. Panasonic did not even so much as email me about the S1R Mark II. But the main reason I am out of the Panasonic ecosystem is that the competition is both cheaper and better.

So 16ms for 12bit, 30ms for 14bit. I'd be interested to see the difference in the shadows, probably not that much? 16ms is pretty good given it's a 100 megapixel sensor.

There's no CFe card with the capacity to give you 8K/60p RAW continuous for loooong continuous takes. In 8K/30p H.265 it's a 125 minute limit.

No the L-mount alliance agreement goes like this. L squared... Sigma undercuts Leica with sexy aluminum unibody full frame cameras for under $2k. Panasonic charges Leica money for zoom lenses and supplies old sensors to Leica for their 2025 cameras. Leica get to die. Sounds like an alliance to make NATO look dodgy!

A great way to let everyone know that dinner's ready and shoot is off. Canon should have thought of this too. Clearly S1H Mark II needs to be in the GH1 form factor. It's the only way to save Panasonic. Back to basics. With a gold edition too.

Nightmare fuel

Thoughts on rolling shutter and press trips. I think there's a bigger problem with Panasonic and it's the competition. Nikon Z8 used prices... $3000. So the Panasonic's not the best value hybrid camera, and not the best spec's either. And it doesn't have the most versatile, well established mount either. Sony a7r V - higher resolution, used prices also around $3k. Canon EOS R5 used prices also a problem... $2k-2.5k GFX 100 is another competitor, with chonky 4K and much larger sensor for also around 2.5k-3k used. Why buy a new camera over those? When it isn't better or cheaper? Panasonic need to either be cheaper or better. You can't be more expensive and worse.

Fair play for the correction. I think with any bayer sensor there is a way to invoke moire, if the texture is fine enough and at the right distance. On his closer shots the issue was solved by the 8K sensor, but the S1H with the AA filter should have the advantage in all the other cases and further away from the subject. Is it worth worrying about? Not too much, but worth being aware of. I am still too upset about the S5 body design to care about the S1R II too much, let's see what panasonic bring with the S1H II 7 years from now.

I think I have answered it myself... The compression in H.265 is the result of bad tests. They are using the MP4 mode which has extremely low bitrates. In MOV we have 8K H.265 10bit 422 at 400Mbit, similar to the Sony a1's 500Mbit 8K mode post firmware update. This I have experience of and it was a match for N-RAW as far as the lack of compression, great shadow detail and a fine noise texture goes. There's also a Prores 422 HQ 700Mbit/s mode in 4K/24p, so a reasonable step up from 400Mbit. Remember however that H.265 long GOP at 400Mbit is equiv. to H.264 at 800Mbit so if you see a ton of macro blocking in that I'll be surprised! The ProRes codec has the advantage of being ALL-I though. According to Newsshooter where you can see the full breakdown of bitrates, 4K in H265 MOV is 190Mbit, so equivalent to 380 H.264. https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/05/10/nikon-z8-announced/ Aside from the wide range of bitrates... I like the fact it has no crop in 4K/120p plus the option of DX and 2.3x crop. The 2.3x crop is nice for Super 16mm lenses. Plus the high-res Zoom option for pretty much any crop factor between 1 and 2.3 One last thought, it seems Nikon did agree with the Canon 70d that the right place for the stills/movie mode is under your right hand.

There is a 700Mbit/s mode in NRAW at 4K 24p which could be good half-way house between too much compression and the huge file sizes of the 8K NRAW and Prores modes. This is among the smallest file size for RAW shooting on any camera, alongside C-RAW Lite 6K on the EOS R3. I have seen this test which shows the compression in the red channel with H.265. What's a bit frustrating is the lack of info about what bitrate was selected and so on... I assume it was graded from LOG. According to Slashcam the H.265 bitrates in MP4 are tiny. https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Nikon-Z8-in-der-Praxis--Die-bessere-Z9-fuer-Video--8K-RAW-50p-Bolide-mit-Feinschliffbedarf--alles-.html# Will certainly see some compression in MP4. But what about the H.265 MOV mode?

Haha. Nice. Must be confident in the autofocus performance then! Although perhaps I am reading too much into it and it tells us more about the state of BBC News than anything camera related!!

I'm against the new stills/movie/S&Q dial being on the left. You can't operate it quickly under your main gripping hand with the rest of the controls. Nobody quite seems to have been able to grasp yet that Canon got it right in the DSLR days with the 70D stills/movie mode switch near the AF-On button! Aside from S9 I agree, S9 is designed to be something different and fun. I'd prefer to pick that up for certain things over the S1R II. Better than OG S5 but that was pretty terrible, one of the least inspiring designs and EVFs ever, even for 5 years ago. S5 II was an improvement but not by enough. It's a bit like the difference between a7 II and III. Because Panasonic entered the full frame market so late they have not been able to go through 5 generations of iterative kaizen like Sony. The GH2 and in a different way GH5 remains for me one of the best Panasonic cameras looks and ergonomics wise but they have tossed those older designs out completely now rather than evolving from them. S1H with the mechanical shutter and top panel is wonderful isn't it? Just a bit clunky and dated now. I would take the S1R II's image and video capabilities over the A7R V but 100% agree with everything else!

I just think they had a chance to do something really nice, and after 7 years did something very middle of the road. Given this is a 3600 euro camera, they could have at least kept the fancy S1H top LCD which was the finest on the market at the same time as just shrinking the body down and trimming some fat. It would have been nice to rub some of the sharp edges off, it has no graceful curves at all. The S9 also looks very basic and unimaginative, yet with a few tweaks and a viewfinder could have looked lovely. It doesn't need to be X100 level, just better than boring and mediocre. S5 II is not the type of body that screams to pick it up for fun. And I really dislike the rear jog dial, it's so spongey. If they had kept the basic S1H body concept to the tee, just added some nice curved edges and shrunk it in size without removing key features or shrinking the screens... that would have been the Pana flagship for the ages. Instead we got pure dullness! The question is, if they are coming out with an S1H II later this year will they also do an S5 II replica, or push out something more exciting?