LloydPDX

12 hours ago, EphraimP said:

Dang, that would make at least for of us on this board. I'm kinda shocked. It's a pretty small place, taken from a global perspective.

You can probably find/rent a Ninja V pretty easy up in PDX. I've got two down here in Eugene. If you were close enough to make it worth while, I'd let you play with one for a few hours to see if it is something you'd be interested in using and/or rent you one when you needed it. I use them with Fuji X-Ts and definitely appreciate all the pro features they add to the camera, plus the much bigger screen to monitor and capturing in ProRes.

Thanks for the offer/willingness, appreciate it. Yeah, renting here not likely a problem. The external recorder introduces the need for additional powering solutions, but it would be good to have some firsthand experience to understand its value.

23 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Ditto except; Classic Chrome profile on the XH1, then Eterna profile on the XT3 and now Natural profile on the S5.

Has there ever been a time I wish I’d shot log? Nope.

OK, it’s the video equivalent of shooting Jpeg vs Raw, but for me and my needs, I’m comfortable with it and all about getting kit and process (ing time) out of the way as much as possible.

I capture Raw almost exclusively for all my still work, but I have to remember that good event photographers (and others) might have their sRGB jpgs dialed in so well that their workflow is simplified. And it looks good! Maybe time for an old dog to learn new tricks.

6 hours ago, TheRealOG said:

Are you in Oregon?!

yes, and you?

This has been a really helpful thread with thoughtful responses. Thank you. For now, I’ll be pushing myself with the D850 for a better real-world understanding of its capabilities. And maybe borrowing/renting another cam to feel the difference in similar situations, and in the edit.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I agree that maybe the Ninja V might be an ideal solution instead of buying a new old camera, but if you're set on buying something perhaps the GH5/s with a focal reducer/adapter to use your Nikon glass might be the way to go? 

Yes, this, today, would be the most likely direction. But I’m going to push myself a bit more with the D850 in real life for now. Used Gh5s’ and other choices will be around for awhile, after I have more informative successes and failures.

1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Unfortunately for someone like me who shoots real estate, I have found 10-bit LOG to be really useful 🙂

When you are trying to capture a dark bedroom with a beautiful, sunny view of the Pacific Ocean, that extra dynamic range comes in handy.

And the color casts from mixed lighting are a lot easier to deal with in 10-bit footage. I mean, people are paying stagers $8,000 to $12,000 to have furniture brought in for the photos and videos, and the stagers are putting in bulbs of different color temperatures in the same small room 😞 

Your HDR use-case is helpful in reminding me that for now I’m not in this situation! In my location, I can rent if needed, until I understand better what works for me most of the time. And mixed bulbs, especially now with LEDs, can be all over the color map! 

12 hours ago, kye said:

I agree about lock-in, but look at how many thousand/million posts there are online that basically distill down to "hi, two years ago I spent $3000 on a camera body that has 5-bajillion pixels, and now I can't sleep at night until the brand I worship with my all my heart and will fight to the death online to defend releases a camera with 5.2-bajillion pixels that I can spend 150% of what I spent on my current camera body on a new camera body that will give me a 2.4% improvement over the performance of the one I already own".

and if you want to talk about existential crisis', then don't get me started about vintage lenses....  

8-bit vs 10-bit is an interesting topic.  I'm a big fan of 10-bit and I bought my GH5 over other options specifically because it had 10-bit.

However.....  a large (very large) percentage of the time, that difference doesn't matter.

You can shoot in one of two ways.  
The first is to shoot LOG, which is best done by shooting fully manually, using technical methods to expose correctly (eg, grey cards, or even light meters), using a view LUT probably on an external monitor, and then spending significant time in post to colour grade the image to get the absolute most out of it.
The second is to shoot in a 709-style colour space, where you can expose using in-camera tools like waveforms or zebras, and then the time spent in post is minimal, and you're just tweaking the existing colour science that the camera has already given you and you were seeing on-set.

The first method will give you the greatest DR and best results, if you know what you're doing. However, the second method can basically be paraphrased as "Nikon has optimised the exposure tools in your camera to work optimally with the colour science that the Nikon colour scientists spent decades developing and optimising".  
So, the first one will only give you better results if you want something very different to what the Nikon colour scientists predicted you would want, or if you are a better colourist than the Nikon colour scientists.

I swallowed the hype online about shooting with LOG and using LUTs and colour grading in post, and I spent years shooting and creating images that weren't as good as the default colour profile in the cameras I had.  I now shoot in 10-bit, but I use a 709-style picture profile to give me a great starting point, and I adjust from there.

Almost all the arguments online about shooting 10-bit are really about shooting LOG, and more than half of the discussion about shooting LOG is coming from hipster YouTubers who just want to sell you their LUT pack.  

Obviously you're free to do as you choose, and there's more to a new camera than just 8-bit vs 10-bit, but I would highly encourage you to dig a bit deeper into each aspect of the camera, each specification, and to really challenge the idea that you need it or that it will even help you.

Shooting LOG requires colour grading in post that takes considerable time and effort.  Most professional videographers I've seen who talk about productivity and efficiency and keeping their clients happy and *gasp* running a profitable business, rather than endlessly talking online about specifications, use an 8-bit codec and a customised 709-style colour profile, and either don't colour grade at all, or apply a preset look they've developed that just tweaks the image a bit.  Their focus is on getting final videos done and out the door, rather than shooting LOG and arguing about DR on camera forums.

This response reflects where I'm at right now... asking myself if for now, i really need 10 bit, how much can i do with 8bit and existing profiles (and I have Andrew’s z-log profiles to experiment with further.) Chromakeying is still a question, but some focused trials will shed more light on workability. I can also rent a Ninja recorder to get me to 422  in that specific case.

Your observation about Nikon’s history of r&d was helpful reframing!

17 hours ago, kye said:

I don't know much about them, but I assume that much of that functionality (peaking, zebras, a huge amounts more) could be added using an external monitor, if not an external recorder.  I know these are expensive, but the features / codecs you'd get from a good monitor/recorder would be hard for almost any camera to match.  It would add size and weight of course, but would also mean investing in something that could benefit you several upgrades down the track.

Electronic stabilisation is almost always better done in post, because in post the software can 'see' into the future, whereas the camera can't do that, plus it can be tweaked from shot to shot.  Also, if you're adding a monitor, and maybe other rigging, your shots will get more stable due to the weight.

People seem to have very strange and often illogical ideas when talking about investing in equipment, but I'd suggest that a camera body is one of the investments that lasts the least amount of time, with people often re-buying their camera body every few years, when things like lenses can last many body upgrades, external recorders last until the next resolution bump,  audio equipment can last until your quality expectations are no longer met, and lighting basically lasts forever.  Oh, and none of that makes basically any return-on-investment compared to educating yourself and making better content.

Helpful point about stabilizing in post! 
True observations about gear lifetimes, I think. Good mics can last a career, and beyond, as can lenses. My 2008-released Panasonic HPX170, bought used, has great features and taught me lots about video. As problematic as the sensor limitations/ image quality look now, I’m loathe to sell it. But I won’t use it for any client work, so it’s time to move to better image quality with good features, on a used, new-to-me camera. Which I’ll probably squeeze every last pixel out of, too.

Though a Ninja can be very useful, for now compactness and minimal rigging is a priority. And, max quality out of the d850 is still only 8 bit. (Nikon, what???) The increase to 422 can be marginally useful, but seems like a minimal return on investment.

I appreciate your experienced and considered comnents.

28 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Good to see that you thinking of the big picture.

If you can live with 1080p, and since you already shoot with Nikon and have Nikon lenses, the D750 is a good B camera... if you want to stick with Nikon to swap lenses easily. No, it isn't a video-focused camera.

I don't know if Nikon has any more video focused DSLR camera.

I had been shooting on some sony APS-C cameras (a6500 for 4K and a6000 for 1080p). Very detailed image for the 4K on the a6500, but it just isn't a user-friendly experience. And since you mentioned a C100 in your first post, I guess an a6500 would be going in the OPPOSITE direction of where you want to go 😞

The only other thing I can really add that might be helpful is that (personally) I am really thankful for the 10-bit color on my Panasonic S1 because i shoot in situations where it is all ambient lighting and I have to work with mixed lighting. So I am able to do more color correction with that 10-bit footage than I was ever able to do with the 8-bit footage coming out of my Sony cameras.

Thanks. Yeah, the 10 bit 422 of the GH5/S cameras is a big plus. Moreso than trying to keep it in the Nikon family. Even the Z series is lacking in the in-camera codec. And for now I do want to keep it in camera. I haven’t looked at the s1, primarily because it’s another FF camera, and max sensor size isn’t my preference right now. I’ll take advantage of my 850 as best I can, of course, because I already have it, but overall size with lenses is a factor...for what I’m currently doing. And to be clear, I bought the 850 specifically for its  still resolution while also knowing that Nikon isn’t known for leading in the video department ... because that feature wasn’t significant to me at the time.

On 2/24/2021 at 8:51 PM, LloydPDX said:

Thanks for the suggestions, and I do already enjoy a Mixpre-6. Trying to keep it simple and avoid external monitors/recorders if possible. The 2k image is not nearly as good as the 4k, but in 4k you lose peaking, stabilization and zebras. And in 2k, you can only have one at a time. No WFM or scopes either.

Edit: In 4k you lose peaking and stabilization, but zebras are still available.

3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

My opinion is that if you are actually going to do this professionally (even as a side hustle to your stills business) you are going to need TWO video cameras. sure, you can do the things you mentioned with one camera, but having two cameras could make things easier or faster, and at the very least can save your backside when the client knocks over your tripod and breaks your camera and lens (been there, done that, got the insurance check). 

Did you budget for lighting yet?

My thinking is to add one of the cameras I’m considering as a primary, with my 850 and LX100 as potential b-cams or backups for now, or renting a second cam as needed. This would evolve with time.
I’ve picked up some bargain second hand kino-type lights (Lowel) and have a couple LED ac/dc monolights with modifiers.

Audio of course is significant too. I got into sound-for-picture before video though, and I have some good kit already.

5 hours ago, kye said:

Absolutely.  While the D850 may not be the best video-centric camera, but it's a very high-end stills camera and the video modes get the benefits of the sensor, the colour science, the full set of Nikon lenses (which you will already own at least some) and the overall benefit of Nikon, one of the largest camera companies in the world, such as their support networks etc.

Not to mention it's free because you already own it.

Free is pretty hard to beat, when that means the entire budget can go to things other than the camera body.

Great to see the Corey Rich video; I hadn’t seen it before. Thanks for that.

The image quality @4k can be astounding, and I of course have a few lenses for it. I take advantage of dx crop mode as well. However, 4k mode doesn’t support peaking, zebras or stabilization at all, and 2k mode supports only peaking or zebras but not both at the same time. The eStabilization often looks weird, and I wouldn’t depend on it. 2k IQ is degraded compared to 4k. Internal recording is limited to 8b/420, which can be problematic in some situations. There is no WFM or scope, which I’d prefer. 

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Fuji XT3 is awesome for around $800 used. The 10 bit H265 codec sucks if you don't have the right computer. Though you can record in 2k or HD to ease that. Of course there is the option for H264 8 bit. 

The GH5 is great especially with a speed booster. Can't beat its HD and of course the 4k is great. 

Fuji has always been off my radar for no particular reason, will take a look at it.

Good reminder about the speedbooster for M43.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The D850 is a decent enough camera for filming with (especially for your purposes from the sounds of it, a D850 might even be called "overkill"), it is a camera many of us would have killed for only a handful of years ago. 

Rather than buying a secondhand Panasonic GH5, put that money into buying a Sound Devices MixPre3 & SmallHD Focus. 

Thanks for the suggestions, and I do already enjoy a Mixpre-6. Trying to keep it simple and avoid external monitors/recorders if possible. The 2k image is not nearly as good as the 4k, but in 4k you lose peaking, stabilization and zebras. And in 2k, you can only have one at a time. No WFM or scopes either.

At the risk of getting laughed off of the forum, I’m going to ask a “What would you do?” question.

I'm wanting to add a video-centric camera to my established still images practice. The D850 is a fantastic camera for me for stills, but of course the video features are lackluster. My likely projects will be Low key personal and easy-going small client interview or educational projects. Maybe some well lit green screen. No narrative film work. Events possible but not likely. Budget is important here; hence I’m considering (used) a GH5 or 5S, or a C100ii. I like the GH5 4k, codecs and features but less keen on M43 format, af issues and DSLR ergonomics. I love the C100 form factor, features, s35 sensor and af. Picture generally looks very good but codec is thin in camera, and of course capture is 2k. Everyone’s needs differ of course, but how do some of you think about this choice in 2021? What am I overlooking?

As a pro Nikon user for 40 years, I have mixed feelings here. I love my d850 for its still image quality and features. But I’d guess their contract with Sony for the sensor limited the video features and codec. As I look to making more video, I only have to look at a used Lumix GH5S for example to see a simple solution for exceptional video features and in-camera 10bit, which for me are more relevant than full frame vs m43. Disappointed by the Z ii offerings. So I won’t invest in a Z body, and will instead likely add a video-centric camera from another maker, even as I still swoon over my 2-year old Nikon 850.