markm

Last time I heard someone from UKIP speaking they didn't manage to hide their homophobia or racism for more than a few minutes. They'd be just as "nose in the trough" greedy and backhanding as the Tories.

 

I would love it if there were a strong Communist party in the UK but they're hopelessly divided. No chance of a Socialist Republic of Great Britain ant time soon it seems. Though I feel the time is right.

 

So there are my colours on the mast.

 

Quite how we got to this subject I don't know, but I like it.

In any walk of life you will find racists who also come from all races. Who was the guy you are talking about and was he sacked?

You should vote for who you think will benefit the country most If you believe the EU is a dicatorship in the making that will steal your country and democracy there is only one party who you know will stop them. That is UKIP.

In real life the bad guys often do win and yet that is never potrayed in films and this is why.

There are those who live by the rules and those who don't Criminals have a mind set that says crime as okay. So what separates them from those who believe it is wrong?

Values and morals is the answer.

So when a writer writes is s/he writing from the mind set of what are bad morals (This is rare as it would never normally get printed unless shown to be so like mein kampf) and if so should that be allowed to go mainstream? IE Should the morals and ideas of someone not conducive to society be allowed to be mainstream and should society protect itself?

Some examples of those who used morals wrongly.

Hitler wanted to use the jews in order to brainwash his own people and to mobilse the country into his mind set. Germans were not evil Just made up of ordinary people like any other country. But through intimidation for some and brain washing for others and the use of propaganda through films he changed their morality on the vast majority. Even here you can see the seedlings for this with demeaning undermining smearing intolerant sometimes with boot boy tactics by a vocal minority. These are the people rich for picking with dictator tendancies like Hitler. These are possible future Gestapo recruits

We can see this same morality played out in North Korea and in religions that do this too.

In the past some books have been banned Some people like extreme islamist preachers locked up or banned. For the good of the country

Personally I believe we have come a long way and through our 24 hour media we can see the the truth.

It's so important we maintain our moral code and ethics through writing and not allow the morals and ethics that are corrupt and twisted to get a hold.

If you write a hero character then he should be good If you write a bad guy character then he should be bad. Good should alwyas be rewarded and bad should always have justice imposed. Yes I know its a joke IE Why does the good guy always win some kind of victory even if he loses his life.

Some proclaim Tarrantino as the new master bringing new characters to an otherwise stale universe. WRONG Look to yourself maybe you have watched to many films and outgrown them Maybe its time to grow up and do something else or maybe use all that knowledge to make films for those still fresh to it.

Tarrantino messes with the boundaries of morals by creating characters that have us empathise with bad morals. NEW GROUND? I think not. This is ground that in the past was off limits. This is not the work of a master. This is the work of someone who doesn't care who wants to make money at any cost.

That is by defination all that is going wrong with the world.

Lets look at how poor become that way.Assuming of course people want to work

The UK kicked off the industrial revolution and made all our own goods. Whether that be clothes furniture energy whatever. We made our own everything. We also exported to the world. We had a big essential need for working class people. Some got very rich Others who were born to it supervised the whole thing and took the profits.

Today some of those who ammassed a lot of wealth are still turning the cogs and having a say in politics.

The rich families could afford to BUY their kids a good education and then on to a university like oxford which is where they are groomed for all the nice top jobs.

Politicians whether Labour Tory or Liberal are mostly made up of those from wealthy backgrounds with very little representation from the working classes.

In this country we have a currency called the pound. The pounds value is decided by markets. If you have a strong pound then it is worth more in other countries. The problem with a strong pound is that it makes exports dearer for other countries to buy british goods but also the reverse is true Say for example chinese goods with a low currency market value that is fraudently devalued by a chinese government means that in this country chinese goods are very very cheap.

If a worker has to spend 1 hour making something that worker is paid one hours work. In this country through unions and government we have secured what amounts to a living wage. A living wage in this country thanks to a high currency is worth a lot more in another so say a worker here earns £6 He can buy fish and chips. If a worker in Poland earns £6 then spends it in poland he can buy 6 fish and chips.

If a business sets up here and makes goods and pays his worker £6 per hour he cannot compete with a worker in china paid £1 per week. When you go to shop you look for the cheapest price. IE not many can afford Arri prices but everyone can afford chinese prices.

So as film makers we buy equipment at a lower cost that often means near slave labour and put our own workers out of work. How stupid is that.

Of course as individuals we cannot be expected to all act in unison IE if you decide to buy British then everyone else wont. We need leaders.

Our government decide who their candidates will be in an election so in my constiituency area the candidate chosen for us is from the other side of the country has no previous upbringing or allegiance and is in fact an outsider. We have a choice of three of this type of specially chosen candidate. Really candidates should be chosen from their own communities and a share taken from all sections of the community that represent the make up of that community For example a working class town should have a working class MP However 9 times out of ten its a specially chosen candidate that is one of the boys.

So our parliament already consists mostly of those wh are not representative of the people. They make the rules. So what should they be doing?

1) level the playing field to make currencies match. Easy charge import and export duty.

2) Control immigration which is like a dam. You allow a certain number in when more workers are needed and you ease off when times are bad.

So what do our government do for us?

1) In bad times Have an open door immigration policy that allows anyone in through the EU

2) Build the biggest port in the world and new superships to import as much as they can from china. They just cant bring it in quick enough.

This destroys just about all working class jobs Only jobs that require specific higher skills are available. Working class jobs left in the service industy like cleaning are now mostly taken by those from the EU.  WHY???

Bosses are often a greedy lot who like to hire and fire and pay little. British workers are often protected by rights and by an attitude of fair play. 

You may have a small business that has worked self employed for years for a company only to find the bosses sack you and get in cheap EU labour and that is happening everywhere. Of course working classes also spend their money in the local community IE Shops But cant do that if they have no jobs and so high streets close down and I'm not talking about the big items you may by online who incidently cheat because often they pay no taxes but the stuff working class go into town for like a pair of jeans New shoes Maybe a CD dvd a magazine Kids who want sweets or a walkman or maybe some school stuff ALL denied because the money from the local economy is no longer there Its in the poorer countries of the EU Because that is exactly what the EU stated aim is TO share the wealth between countries.

I could go on and on but if you can grasp the gist of this then understand.

The British people are deliberatly being robbed of their country and their jobs by a political class not working for them but themselves To secure their own futures for their kids. We are all being sold out.

Now I am not being conspiratorial I dont believe the American government set up 9/11 or that aliens have landed.

I do believe that those in power no longer have the morals integrety or allegiance to the people and its up to us to recognise that and change our voting habits to stop it. Its also up to us as film makers to make comment on our politicians. We may think there are problems in society caused by other things but everything is top down.

How could you as  a working class or poor member of society hold respect for those in charge? The bankers who fiddled us all and cost us a recession The politicians who took bribes in cash for quesions Who award peerages to their mates. Who rip off the country through expenses and then there are the things we cant prove but know are there. John Prescott with his secretary having sex on the desk in admiralty arch while workers are feet away. If you dont respect them how are you going to respect their rules. Youre not. So everyone feels the examples set from the top are the new norm.

Combine this with a society that doesn't teach kids boundaries anymore and where everyone believes they can do what they want and have it all When those people with a sense of entitlement have nothing and see the rich waltzing around in all the latest stuff while they have unnaffordable petrol rocketing food VAT at 20% Council tax of £1200 per year Even getting a working class job means you can only afford food while sitting there in the cold. That by its defination is slavery Because you are not getting paid only food and somewhere to sleep.

Personally I have 5 film scripts of a series ready to go  that does make political comment..

bwitz

You are clearly clueless and have no idea how countries work and yet here you are spouting off what you dont know..

I was talking about the UK by the way.

But talking of America. President Bush changed American banking rules that forced fannie mac and freddie mae to lend to poor immigrnat mexicans

Those amazing great American institutions sold BILLIONS of those worthless mortgages and loans to British bankers amongst others Bankers were then awarded huge bonuses for bringing in business that was worthless. This went on for a number of years until the FBI blew the whistle on it and suddenly the banks were forced to admit they were sitting on a worhless pile of paper making them worthless. The bankers banks were all in on it But the Amercan government knew from day 1 what was happening.

America caused the banking crisis and so the economic recession of the western world. You are right its human nature to take what you can like greedy bankers did. You are wrong that human nature like this cant be taught out by a moral code tempered with justice and policed by those who believe in right and wrong.

It happens every day It's called a court of law.

I wont bother in dealing with your putdowns of me.

Good god, markm, you are exhausting.

You're right I've said enough Work it out for yourselves one way or another. Pretty meaningless as no one is listening.

Axel

 

viewers dont expect to be left sided by a film maker and we follow the rules we have been trained to follow IE Editing time manipulation etc. We take our cues without questioning.

 

Thats why its so easy to be fooled.

 

brad pitt in inglourious basterds  looks and sounds and acts like a hero The valiant man who corrects history. Only this man scalps people and keeps them because he likes them. Therefore he looks and sounds like a hero but he is in fact a villain dressed as a hero. This tells an audience that a hero can torture maim and kill in a fun enjoayable way. The scalpings were very realistic adding to the realism. Now if this was the good guy doing the bad things fine we all know thats what bad guys do. But a good guy? Imagine kirk or john wayne doing the same thing Or the man with no name.

 

Subliminaly you are taken in and the brain washing begins where the lines between right and wrong merge and disappear into right is wrong and wrong is right.

 

Soon you too will be a mindless moron wanting to attend executions to watch horrors inflicted on good or bad

 

In fact why not build the amphitheatre now and use lions to kill christians and gladiators each other Just be so much quicker dont you think?

 

Why not do what the aztecs did and play constellation football with the losers having their hearts ripped out or decapitated.

 

Why not follow Sharia law and have beheadings stonings limb amputations.

 

There is a whole list of GREAT ideas to reshape our ideology into something different Wetern civilisation has been here a fraction of a second and the closest we came to getting it right but lets throw it all away and entertain new morals because lets face it everyone has the right to what they want dont they.

Axel

viewers dont expect to be left sided by a film maker and we follow the rules we have been trained to follow IE Editing time manipulation etc. We take our cues without questioning.

Thats why its so easy to be fooled.

brad pitt in inglourious basterds looks and sounds and acts like a hero The valiant man who corrects history. Only this man scalps people and keeps them because he likes them. Therefore he looks and sounds like a hero but he is in fact a villain dressed as a hero. This tells an audience that a hero can torture maim and kill in a fun enjoayable way. The scalpings were very realistic adding to the realism. Now if this was the good guy doing the bad things fine we all know thats what bad guys do. But a good guy? Imagine kirk or john wayne doing the same thing Or the man with no name.

Subliminaly you are taken in and the brain washing begins where the lines between right and wrong merge and disappear into right is wrong and wrong is right.

Soon you too will be a mindless moron wanting to attend executions to watch horrors inflicted on good or bad

In fact why not build the amphitheatre now and use lions to kill christians and gladiators each other Just be so much quicker dont you think?

Why not do what the aztecs did and play constellation football with the losers having their hearts ripped out or decapitated.

Why not follow Sharia law and have beheadings stonings limb amputations.

There is a whole list of GREAT ideas to reshape our ideology into something different Wetern civilisation has been here a fraction of a second and the closest we came to getting it right but lets throw it all away and entertain new morals because lets face it everyone has the right to what they want dont they.

Andrew what you are talking about are the symptoms of what I have said.

The problem is a lack of working class jobs bought on by cheap imports from China who have a a much lower currecency and will deliberately devalue it on order to keep their goods cheap. They also pay low wages and burn coal freely polluting the atmosphere.

In a properly run country This is how it works

Our government charge import duty on goods coming in to level the playing field. This means our workers can compete with cheap goods and manufacturers can make money. However our government does not level the playing field so working class jobs disappear.

The EU want to share the wealth equally among all nation states in order to install the euro and their regime. SO say you allow in one million polish workers who each send home £100 per week back to poland where that same £100 will be worth an awful lot more So times that by one million and you have a hundred million per week leaving the country. Now say you spread that over a year you have 5 billion leaving the country Then spread that over ten years years You just lost 50 billion. Now there are a lot more than a million EU workers sending home money So money is leaving this country faster than water though a sieve which is exactly what the EU wants To spread the wealth with the unfortunate consequence as a richer country we lose.

BUT bosses are happy to pay teachers £30 an hour but only wants to pay working classes £7 so they advertise and can't get british workers because they are not offering enough and so employ EU workers happy to take what they can. However market forces would have meant British working classes would have been offered higher wages if cheap labour had not been imported so the working classes now are either on the dole or earning peanuts. Bosses prefer EU workers as they are percieved as harder working easier to sack and dont take time off. As well as rip off too.

The EU is a single party

For example in the UK we have three main parties and every five years we elect who we want Keeping the parties working for us or lose their jobs.

However the EU party has no labour tory or liberal replacement possibilities and you can only vote in the EU and that makes the EU a dictatorship Once they have control they could then vote in every MEP satys in their job untill retirement OR a million pound bonus weekly Whose going to stop them? They are in power forever with no opposition. So you see the EU is a politicians wet dream and what they are veering us towards.

You could if you had an ounce of common sense vote UKIP but many wont because their fathers always voted for Labour Torys etc who are using this to take our country and democracy from us.

Recently the Police arrested lots of politicians for the expenses scandal Soon after the politicians took over the police by installing politicians to run them even thoguh they needed a referendum and the turnout was not high enough for it to be legal they did it anyway. Now they have given those commissioners the power to hire and fire who they want so Police will do as the politicians say. There wont be anymore cash for peerages cash for questions or expenses scandals because the politicians have systematically gagged the press through using the likes of hugh grant and taken control of the police.

The politicians do not work for us they conspire together to take what they can. The Bilderbergers are a place where politicians meet business and between themselves cut the profits.

Unbelievably in a world now turned upside down where right is wrong and wrong is right they are getting away with it.

TV and films are one of their best propaganda vehicles for changing peoples ability to know right from wrong anymore.

Capitilsim is devoid of emotion and the reason it has to be tempered with government. Unfortunatley Governments of today are made up of individuals who are morally bankrupt. People are conned into believing them because they look good on TV. TV loves to pull in viewers and so courts bad behaviour. They love to show bad politicians as good and then twist it back and forth and create a never ending soap story. Politicians are soap stars and exploit TV to brainwash the public to gain for themselves.

Come on how could anyone sit there and listen to millipede spout lie after lie and not see through it. How can anyone see the EU is NOT a trade organisation it is a Dictatorship complete with its own Judiciary Police Flag National anthem while pretending it isnt when it clearly is.

They wouldnt have gotten away with it a few years back but thanks to the new twisted morality that right is wrong and wrong is right No one can tell anymore.

Ultimately the whole thing comes back to exploitation through propaganda Brain washing. Twisting morals Labour called it spin Blair was a master at it.

We as film makers can make a difference in exposing the truth and bloody well should.

JG Harding

The bible is a great example Graphically violent and works within a moral framework. As for Tarrantino violence it is as realistic as he can make it.

Your fascination and enjoyment of twisting good and evil is similar to the Myra Hindley Ian Brady story.

Hindley was just a normal working class girl. She would never have been anything other than probably a married mother BUT she wanted excitement, something different. Brady was handsome, different, strange. This intrigued Hindley who saw something different Something new. He set about gaining her loyalty and sharing his perversions. Slowly she felt this was normal this was okay and ultimately she went along with his murders. She couldnt understand WHY she was labelled a murderer too. She had not commited the murders all she had done was witnessed them. She was innocent.

You can enjoy films that subvert right from wrong good and bad Twisted into each other. As our society crumbles under an avalanche of a new twisted morality You too are a witness crying I was not a part of this I just watched and allowed it to happen so it wasn't my fault.

ITS ALL our fault we all have to nurture our civilisation our society Not by imposing censorship but clearly defining right from wrong and then play out all the horrors you want to your hearts content within the frame work of knowing right from wrong.

Andrew

Yes sometimes the good guys lose They sacrifice themselves like in armageddon Butch Cssidy lose but although they are seen as villains by the society we are shown their gentle caring side.

of course you can have any kind of mixture Just dont potray good guys as bad guys and bad guys as good. Dont mix up what is right and wrong have a strong clear narrative that sticks to supporting our society/culture rather than pulling it down.

That is not censorship it is common sense. Eastenders also does this Phil Mitchell steals cheats is arrogant and yet doesn't get his come uppance. He gets away with it so reinforcing the idea thats its okay to do those things/ behave that way. Eastenders constantly justifies bad behaviour and in my opinion does reinforce the way things are going in this country.

I think writers need to learn a few lessons about the arena they practice in that must include morals and to write within that frmaework. Without a moral framework there is not much hope for any of us I'm afraid. 

Thanks Bioskop! Yes it was the keep telling yourself its only a film its only a film that implied from where I'm sitting that I'm weak minded and therefore my posts are invalid and indicates to readers if you side with me then you to are weak minded to so says Bioskop backing the vocal minority

Clearly you were thinking of something else :)

Axel I'm not saying you can't have violence horror etc. I'm saying the film maker must show the consequences in a moral way.

IE What is wrong with this.

Bad guy walks in shoots all the old age pensioners and kids. Then is challenged by the good guy who seemingly cannot be defeated so the good guy seems to lose everything and in his hour of need loses the thing he loves most his pet that he has a sexual relationship with. He then thinks about ending it all only to come up with a plan to kill the good guy and wipe out the country that he has had enough of. He kills everyone and then forces 50 women to marry him and be his sex slaves/rape. END.

The film is set to cool music slick clothes and shows his peers and those underneath him giving him respect.

Thats what you are arguing is acceptable and your right to make and its what Tarrantino does so well if not as overtly.

@MarkM: Probably best if we agree to disagree. All points of view are valid, since we are autonomous beings with our own set of morals & taste preferences - that's what makes use so unique as a species. But just remember to keep telling yourself, "Its only a film, its only a film..."

Thats quite offensive Bioskop Do you really believe that by undermining me in this way makes you look right? It just makes you look like a pontificating fool

You go on about self choice and how you are your own censor like that is a god given right You have no concept of being a part of a society and the responsibility that incurs. If people like you are left in charge of right and wrong Heaven help us all.

You alwys love to tar me with the self made slur that I am for censorship. For the billionth time I AM NOT. I am however for keeping our ideology that right is right and wrong is wrong. That doesnt mean a film has to have a hero that is right It could also mean hero that is wrong but then changes and gets punished for being wrong. Always coming back to the idea that good and right prevails and are the right values. The idea that the hero should obtain rewards riches by being a villain is clearly wrong. The man with no name was not a villain. Nor was Rambo. Even scarface was a character clearly marked out as being mentally handicapped.

Films and TV impact our society That is a fact.

We are influenced by others That is a fact.

Children all the way through teens to about 21 have minds that test ideas and merge fact with fiction. This is why teenagers can be molded into soldiers. IE The excitement The glory of war. There is little doubt that films play a big part in this.

What use is a life if you cant be creative and use your mind to escape into alternative realities or be scared in a way that wont harm you. All the essential tools a film maker has at his disposal. And because of the influences a film maker can have on a society they must also be armed with a moral code. Just like teachers have to have training and rules so film makers should and if they can't do it because it's the right thing to then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to spread that what is detrimental to society.

Youngsters go out into the big wide world and want to shape a personality for themselves to gain respect and to be accepted.They look to film for answers not realising the characters work only because the writer lets them.

Some say thats rubbish people don't copy films and yet its right in front of you and fairly flipping obvious to anyone with the slightest common sense.

Saturday night fever and the nightclubs every one trying out the John Travolta dance routine Even now it is iconic

Kubricks Clockwork orange had to be banned because of gangs copying it.

Cars now meeting up at locations to race each other

Bruce Lee and the kung fu craze.

it goes on and on. NOW I wouldn't say any of the above is a bad thing because it promotes our society and people. And some will decide they want to copy the bad guys as a form of rebellion. Discounting drug users How many crooks rob because of need? Or because they want to be a part of a gang that likes designer shoes for example. During the tottenham riots kids had no idea No direction and just did what they wanted because nobody could tell them they couldnt. They felt they had the right to burn down shops and to take what wasn't theres because the nasty rich people IE Poor shop owners had more than them and were somehow responsible for their lot in life. So where do they get these ideas? Schools that give more power to the kids? Kids that are untouchable. Kids that know it all seen it all watched all the perverted so called porn had sex at 11 and challenged the grown ups and won because they are to afraid to confront them for fear of the law landing on the side of kids?

Even here I can see the sense that YOU cant tell me what to do. So many think they are above any moral law can sit in judgement of everyone else. Just the same as those feral kids. Feral because for them there are no rules.

Well I have news for you There has to be rules Kids have to learn boundaries so they grow into adults who respect society. But for many of us those opportunities are gone. For many there is no care or respect for rules and that is how their kids will be bought up. As that happens society too will break down. Not because of violence in films but because society as a whole is no loger working together instead working on individual needs that pander to a selfish greedy arrogant attitude that in itself leads to confrontation and the need to understand why. So films again become schools of learning. Why can't you be a succesful bad guy. Greed is good isn't it.

Programmes like eastenders are teaching society how to behave and often preposterous For example a muslim family acting as westerners. Where the east end is still as it was 30 years ago. Why do we watch this? Because we like to see situations that one day might affect us and how they deal with them. In other words Eastenders is educating us?? Obvious examples are the public outcries when someone loses a baby or police discrimination or homo sexuality WOW. Isn't that something that should be handled with care? Often a public outcry will start controversy and spots on TV So dont tell me there is no effect when clearly there is.

So When you were a kid who were your heroes Who did you most want to be like? Batman Superman Spiderman? Was it Mad Max Who influenced you musically Elvis Was rap your thing? Maybe gangsta rap? What was it you thought was cool and added to your belief system and maybe a part stayed with you right into adult hood. Until life gives you a proper kick up the arse and you lose a loved one or get ill and realise you are just a walking water bag that is totally vulnerable limited useless and a big fat zero in the scheme of things.

So the things you thought you believed or knew are lies. Your conditioning has been wrong. You are not who you thought you were.

As a society lets be open and honest with ourselves and see us for what we really are and lets make sure entertainment stays as escapism and not becomes who we are.

Although we mostly go through our teens and end up working it all out Lets not fkcuk kids minds up by altering the moral code. IE Good guys are good and bad guys are bad by turning them into Good guys are even more cool if they maim torture and kill. Lets make sure our moral code stays on the side of right and wrong for the good of our kids our civilisation and all of us.

Although film makers are not entirely responsible for society after all they are a product of that society They do owe a responsibility as they contribute greatly to the culture Film makers can also help bring change and should highlight our governments corruption and the worlds ills.

ANDREW

Religion being proved wrong is not the reason for the breakdown of society. Right and Wrong are not owned by religions it is owned by all of us and something that is taught through society what is acceptable and what isn't. Using the example of eastenders as an alleged slice of life For many those characters are the norm. Not everyone though can live up to the expectations and shy away prefering to live in an even more fantasy world where they can be who they want to be. The world of the internet can be a very dark place that allows those without the courage in real life to be superstars of extraordinary bravado on the web. Thats not living though is it thats a retreat from reality because you cant cope. More and more sad cases like this are happening.

Maybe Japans retreat into pornography has other reasons than just self satisfaction. Maybe its a society unhappy with itself forcing expression into something that are symptoms of a sick society.

Thats not saying  pornography is wrong. Thats saying everything is okay as long as you face it with truth and understanding.

So censorship in itself shouldn't be neccesary as long as those making films are not deceptively corrupting or influencing society to its downfall. Who should be the judge of that? ALL OF US. We all have an inbuilt knowledge of right and wrong that we can overide for the sake of getting what we want. Its about control of ourselves just like eating sensibly Like manners. Like getting along and contributing.

I guess what it all boils down to is Grow up!

Sorry Andrew comparing china's censorship/society to what I am advocating is completely wrong.

I think though you probably agree showing inglourious basterds or SAW 5 at 10pm on TV uncut is unacceptable?

You're going in circles. People are not evil because of art, if anything it's the other way round, art is portraying the evil in people.

People were evil and did atrocious things way before Tarantino or even movies in general came up.

 

What you're defending is called censorship, and unfortunately it still happens in a lot of places around the world.

They're not any better than us, and not free from evil at all.

What your defending is evil and the right to promote it. Censorship is a neccesary tool to stop sick perversions becoming mainstream. You can join the Tarrantino fan club and carry on. I have given my argument and the reasons for it. Yes all around the world tyrants reign supreme Oppressing there people with murder mayhem and always led by those without humanity compassion those people you love having as role models and heroes for your new found entertainment. Be careful it doesnt come back to bite you on the ass.

I'd further add that the fall of our civilisation is on the cards in my opinion.

We are being watched and judged by other societies Some becoming quite hostile to our loss of values. We are also spreading this poison around the world. In our evolution only now have we actually managed to build a society that seemingly works. Its incredibly hard to do that To create law and order to have education and scinece that allows us to progress to a fantastic future.

We are in my opinion in danger of throwing it all away. Unless we accept society must have rules to enable freedom and civilisation to exist. We cant co exist with part of our culture thinking it is okay to murder maim torture others and yet already we have that. Where do you think these people who have no morals no scruples get it from and I'm not just talking about your average thug I mean all the politicians bankers and big business who are taking everything for themselves and leaving nothing as the poor get poorer and the rich richer Where do you think they are getting their morals from. WHY DO you think SAW 5 is shown at 10pm on TV NOW?

We are seeing where the morals of bad is the new good and good is the new bad is getting us all. Isnt it time we as film makers reset our moral compasses and understood what we are doing?

I dont think you're understanding the difference between horrific violence good and evil which in itself can be okay.

I am talking here about the corruption of good to evil and evil to good. Forget horrific violence thats not the real issue The real issue is about the corruption of right and wrong. Good and bad and the throwing away of good's need to be accountable/responsible/decent in exchange for good becoming evil.

I know sadly we see it all around now. No more fair play. Intolerance. Beat the other person regardless of right or wrong. Treat your fellow man with contempt. In it for what you can get. Do down the little guy. Jealousy greed selfishness. All the time others are doing it to you so you are justified.

However as film makers we do have an influence on society and we presumably all want to see a fair and just world where helping each other is the default setting. By subverting good to bad and bad to good and calling the man responsible a Master is really worrying.

Andrew I havent seen Django unchained but it sounds like he's doing for black people what he done for the Jews with inglourious basterds. In inglorious Basterds the Jews are an elite army unit with the hero captain who wants 100 nazi scalps.

Jews are supposed to believe in Jesus and yet here they are scalping maiming killing people even torturing the female cinema owner for and on behalf of the Jewish people he has given them an alternative ending to the massacre of the gas chambers.

I have no problem with him changing history but why do it on behalf of a religion? Why believe those in that religion want to see human beings tortured maimed and killed as enjoyable? I have no problem with the hero dispatching bad guys But come on Torturing maiming is not any role model for a society to be accepting is it?

There is to much to answer here so I'm not going to.

I don't make the rules the rules are inbulit into most of us who understand why Heroes are made to be basicly good, The problem is many don't realise they have been bought up on a diet of rules until someone like Tarrantino comes along and breaks them and people go WOW a new way of doing things. Why wouldnt the hero be a bad guy who tortures maims bullies and looks cool. They do this without thinking through the consequences and that such a shift in moral values can have on generations to come let alone themselves.

Answers like Anti heroes have always been a part of film making are wrong. Anti heroes in the past are misunderstood or rebelling or other reason and often tragic figures.

To make heroes out of evil is completely against my own belief and will be the downfall of our civilisation Kids have to be taught right from wrong and this does the opposite. It also teaches society bad is good and good is bad.

As I have said I have nothing against horror or violence but to twist morality on its head through the use of films is wrong. Films have been used many times in the past for propaganda for hate but to me this is the worst use of all. The corruption of good and evil is the final nail.

So people are blank canvases who absorb whatever they see without questioning anything. Where does common sense fit in all this?

 

The morality and politically correctness you talk about is exactly what makes conventional American cinema dull and plain, it's everything cinema should not be. It's art, not propaganda.

I never said that Bruno I said KIDS ARE BLANK CANVASSES. Please dont take my words and make them into something else.

American cinema is not dull and plain I am looking forward to fury road I also look forward to the new star wars trilogy. Tarrantino is treading on territory that should be off limits to make money and establish himself. Doesn't make it right though

So lets narrow this down

1) Hero characters should be good and not bad guys.

2) Hero violence should be justified and the hero should have a moral centre.

3) Villains can be as evil as they want and go to extreme levels of violence.

4) Graphic violent films should be watched by those of an appropriate age.

Any film that makes heroes out of bad guys and shows crime pays as well as heroes that are basicly torturers and sadists is wrong.

So yes we can have exteme violence as long as it has a moral compass and is kept awy from our kids.

Bioskop and Axel

The problem is you're looking at it from an adult perspective Children cant always separate fact from fiction.

We are not BORN angelic We are all a blank canvas If you live in a society surrounded by violence you will be violent. We are hopefully progressive and although you can say victorian times there was more crime we could go back further where there were even more So what? What are you trying to prove. Unless you are trying to make me into a prude and argue the case for keeping what amounts to pornographic violence IE satisfies some questionable minds as entertainment. Sam Pekinpah films were violent BUT showed the bad guys getting their come uppance Private Ryan showed arms and legs ripped off but showed the reality of war. Jaws showed a menacing monster as did alien that put the willies up us BUT it showed the good guys as GOOD. Do you understand what the good guy represents? Its you You are giving your mind over to be the hero you never could be in real life. In film you can share the getting the beautiful girl defeating the bad guys and feel the awfulness of injustice as you strive to conquer fear and rescue maidens. Okay violence in the right way is acceptable so lets get rid of the notion I'm a prude I'm not. The degree of violence is balanced by the films need to propel itself. Vilence for the love of it Violence to feed male fantasy Violence that says this is real I am a real man because I can watch it and except it is sick. Dont get me wrong Rambo was a great film He played a heroic character that righted wrongs FINE.

Tarrantino violence IS REALISTIC there is no getting away from that I saw a TV spot where he felt in order to show someone being choked they had to do it for real You know the bit where thblood drains from the face and the person goes unconscious. The actress had to trust him as he did it. Supposedly fictional films are supposed to show fictional violence as far as I can see Tarrantino violence looks as real as you can get. When Chris Waltz gets branded with a swastika that looks real When his mate was scalped that looks real. Pleased dont tell me tarrantino violence is laughable NOT IT ISNT.

Another thing that truly puzzles me is WHY some think Tarrantino is a master and put him in the same vane as Kubrick Spielberg Ridley Scott Its an insult to compare reservoir dogs with Alien. OR 2001 or Star wars.

The thing Tarrantino does best is depicting violence in a twisted sick way that in my opinion is quite capable of turning a childs mind into believing that is normal. He has done this by going into territory other film makers have avoided because of morality issues As film makers we have to make stuff we feel comfortable with. I could not make a tarrantino film because I would worry to much that blood could be on my hands. Tarrantino does write some good scenes though and is good at building tension. I wouldnt call him a master at that either. If you like well scripted films I can think of plenty that are better but maybe not watched by those who prefer the level of violence that really should only be appreciated by a mass murderer or evil dictator. How on earth anyone can see that a hero figure that maims tortures in sick ways and not understand why this is wrong is beyond me.

You have western soldiers in Iran who have commited warcrimes and yes you understand they may have seen their best mate blown to bits by a cowardly bomb or a bomber in a hijab or dressed as a civilian and commit gross awful atrocities in the name of religion. BUT we as a people must rise above that and teach our kids that violence is awful but sometimes neccesary and not fun heroic but sad.

And yes we can have fun violence with films like Rambo or an Arnie movie where the good guy has morals and the bad guys have none But the moment you turn that to the good guys have no morals and that being bad is the new good then you are in trouble and so is a society that excepts this.

Axel

Kids upbringing is a whole other debate.

Inglourious basterds was also shown ON TV where children can watch.

So lets separate this into how I feel.

Tarrantino films should not be accessible by those under 18.

2) Tarrantino is not a Master at what he does by a long way. Inglourious basterds did not have amazing acting although Chris Waltz came out as the best actor.

I watched the film because I thought it was going to be a take on spaghetti westerns which it wasn't. The best scene was the opening where Tarrantino built the tension up quite well and he let the girl live which was obviously his big mistake as this later leads to his downfall. Okay Brad Pitt was the Jewish (Wish we'd done it this way) Hero Who came across as a nice good old American Jewish boy who dished out justice as a severerly deranged war criminal would. So a sort of highly wishful thinking film for jews who can never forgive Nazis. The Brad pitt hero was the same as say Sadam Hussein who was rumoured to put victims in mincing machines or his son rumoured to use a drill to kill people.

It has in the past been tradditional for the good guy to kill people who had to be stopped and do it as a neccesary evil quickly. However Tarrantino has decided the hero should be a bad guy who kills and maims people with torture in the most sadistic way his mind can conjure up. This used to work well with if it was the bad guy who did this and then got his comeuppance but Tarrantinos films lose any moral compass or right and wrong and replace it with so called real world reality which is also a lie and aimed squarely at those who have no real understanding of violence but like to think they are one of the boys. We used to live in an age where people saw dressing smartly proved you worked hard and your way up and had pride. We now live in a world where robbing stealing mugging is a good way to get those things and idiots that are proud of it.

Tarrantino might say he is only refelcting back what the world really is. I say he is defining the evilness into hero status. Stories must always have a moral compass Must always show good triumphing in some way and must never allow bad behaviour to become role models.

Clint Eastwood played a pscho gunslinger who killed the bad guys and got the gold. Morriconne added a great score that made it all cool. Tarrantino tried to rip those off and turn the clint character into a torturer / sadist nutjob and then add cool music and even doesnt use those essential ingredients that say made the man with no name very well at all. But well enough to attract people with wannabe violent attitudes to it. In doing so he redifines the hero status of mad max into mental max with torturer war crime status.

Filmmaking shapes culture and society to some degree there is no doubt about that. Tarrantino has exploited one of the last areas to explore precisely because it is sick. Sick films contribute to a sick society to some extent I'm afraid.