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JAMES BOND SKYFALL SONY 4K PROJECTION IN THE UK

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#61
markm

Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:31 AM

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Basicly what your left with is just colour and that colour is decided by how light interacts with silver halides. The colour image its richness and degree are determind by a chemical process.
Sensors do something similar electronically.
There is a big difference in how the two processes get there. Film renders the image far more naturally and beautifully where digital renders it more electronically and rather bland.

Now thats a conclusion I have reached NOT because I love film or digital I don't I'd much rather use a digital camera for all the obvious reasons but the truth the film process renders a more beautiful image and I'm all for digital improving and finding out why.

If you want the film industry to suceed they should start looking at this without just accepting digital is the future and fooled by it.

It annoys me the way some people look for posters weaknesses to win an argument. IE Because I mention I have knowledge of working with film Its easy to diss me off with being out of touch and out of date. That is an awful way to win an argument.

I only go on facts The fact is digital is ruining the film industry unless it drastically raises its game in colour rendition. (Please dont start on about grading) Do I have to keep repeating this. Film renders each colour individually in a more realistic and beautiful way that cannot be matched by grading unless you mask off and grade every single item with colour in it. This would be so expensive as to be impracticable. And is so random I cant see technology figuring out a way to do it at least not in the forseeable future.

If I was making a hollywood film on digital right now I'd be worried because when and if digital improves and I think it will and actually competes with film there will be a lot of digital films left substandard But those shooting in film right now will be able to transfer their film to the new digital technology.

If your a DP making a high budget film be WARNED.

#62
Axel

Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:26 AM

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It annoys me the way some people look for posters weaknesses to win an argument. IE Because I mention I have knowledge of working with film Its easy to diss me off with being out of touch and out of date. That is an awful way to win an argument.


You get into an argument (I prefer 'discussion') not only if you want to destroy your opponent, but also because you feel involved, because you care. andy lee and I have already said that we have both analog backgrounds (I used to work in the darkroom back then, making special enlargements - and manipulating the, er, data from the negatives - , then I was analog projectionist, now digital), so please don't imply we just want to win an argument.

(Please dont start on about grading)


Difficult, because it was done before. It was complicated and not very precise, and if a print came out as expected, that was the exception from the rule. And because photochemical timing was so time-consuming and frustrating, it was done with special care. These two words represent a value, for sure. We all should care for what is core (and stop to care about unimportant things), and we all should make every minute of our life special.

And as esoteric as this sounds, the analog process is for modern cinema.

> the distribution is digital
> therefore the laboratories shut down
> the film stock production goes down
> prices rise
> the characteristics of analog film get ironed out in the process of digital transfer, digital post and distribution

So very few people with a lot of cash behind them will occasionally try to reanimate analog film.

Reminds me of the true story of a 500 year old wine bottle (with a history appropriate for a TV series) that was auctioned for $200.000. The world's most expert wine lovers were invited. After the bottle was uncorked, the wine reacted with the oxygen in the air and turned into vinegar immediately. The testers said the first breath they took over the open bottle was of a very good bouquet.
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Either you care - or you don't

#63
andy lee

Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

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Mark said
'cannot be matched by grading unless you mask off and grade every single item with colour in it. This would be so expensive as to be impracticable. And is so random I cant see technology figuring out a way to do it at least not in the forseeable future.'

Mark this is easy to do I use this function all the time its essential to grading its called 'selective colour' even Photoshop has this function so you can do it on stills too.
it lets to alter each individual colour or combination of colours to achieve the look and feel you are after.
Try it its very very useful


As a projectionist Axel has no doubt watched more film stocks than all of us put together , he knows his stuff!!
I always find Axel's advise very useful.

Andy Lee
LTI Films
Tecnoir

'If it looks good , it is good!'


#64
markm

Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:00 PM

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Okay I can see its turned into the old "I'm a master so dont question what I say with putdowns and game playing.

However I've said my bit up to others to do their own tests and reach their own conclusions.

Nuff said

#65
andy lee

Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:28 PM

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this forum is all about sharing knowledge , I've spent many years sat in hi end grading suites and they do make a huge difference to the 'look and feel' of either digital or film projects.
You can make both look like each other in post if you want to.
For me the whole style of a project is made in the grade and there are so many things you can do to achieve the look you are after.

You can even grade at home in Photoshop and achieve suberb results.
Output each frame individually into a folder then sepearate out all the fames of a similar look from the edit into new sub folders .
Then batch edit them in Photoshop ,processing them to achive the look you want , running every frame in each folder through the same batch settings for each edit.
It takes time but lets you use the whole Photoshop package on your image including plugins like Imagenomic for skin smoothing etc.
The big thing now in pop vidoeos is girl singers want the same skin smoothing/airbrushing as they get this in stills and they now what it in videos too!
Just look at US pop videos and you can see the skin smoothing going on all over the place now! Christina , Rhiannna , Madonna, GaGa etc
It gives that airbrushed look of a Vogue Magazine on a video.

Andy Lee
LTI Films
Tecnoir

'If it looks good , it is good!'


#66
andy lee

Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

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interesting to hear Roger Deakins say in the video he was stacking ND's for some shots when outside as the Alexa is 800 iso
looking at some of the boards from Skyfall you can see what lenses and filters he was using

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Andy Lee
LTI Films
Tecnoir

'If it looks good , it is good!'


#67
andy lee

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

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Article on Roger Deakins discussing 2.8k Arri Alexa and 4k projection

from www.Studiodaily.com

http://www.studiodai...ssey-not-in-4k/

Saturday afternoon in IBC's Big Screen Theater, celebrated cinematographer Roger Deakins, ASC, BSC, took to the stage and spoke about his experience shooting the soon-to-be released James Bond film Skyfall on the ARRI Alexa digital camera. While Alexa is being used more frequently to acquire big-budget Hollywood films, notably this year's box-office crusher The Avengers, the camera is an even larger hit among DPs in episodic television, where it has now surpassed a whopping 85% market share.
What makes Deakins ARRI's new crown prince of Alexa users? Nominated for nine Academy Awards for Best Cinematography and known for his frequent and consistently artful collaborations with the Coen Brothers and Sam Mendes, Deakins was until recently also quietly and defiantly devoted to shooting film despite the accelerating industry-wide migration to digital acquisition. You can understand how ARRI, which sponsored the presentation at IBC, would react when Deakins eventually used and subsequently endorsed the 2K-resolution digital Alexa—especially during a show where 4K resolutions are at the heart of this year's product demos, show-floor discussions and company rivalries.
It is the relative merits of 2K vs. 4K resolutions in both acquisition and digital cinema distribution and projection that gives this debate its context here at IBC. On the opposite side of the ring sit manufacturers like Sony, with its F65 camera and CineAlta 4K digital cinema projector, and RED, with its boundary-pushing 4K and 5K cameras and developing 5K laser projector. Those companies maintain, as many others developing the hardware and software to support 4K workflows in general here at IBC also believe, that images aquired at the highest resolutions possible translate into beautiful, pristine images on the big, and even bigger screen. Add to that equation visionaries like Christopher Nolan, who shoot booth digitally and on film while aiming for the largest and richest resolutions possible to bring his vision, and DP Wally Pfister's beautiful images, to clear, richly saturated life. Proponents of high-resolution images can also now support their argument with yesterday's news that The Dark Knight Rises, shot on film (Panavision and Arriflex) and IMAX, officially became one of the top ten highest grossing films of all time.
ARRI engineers and product managers have heard this all before but see nothing wrong with up-resing Alexa's 2K images onto traditional and 4K and/or IMAX screens. In a press conference on Sunday, ARRI camera system product manager Marc Shipman-Mueller extolled the virtues of Alexa, noting the many DPs on hit shows like Dexter and Mad Men who simply love the images and workflow they get out of the Alexa on set. When asked during a Q+A session when there will be a 4K version of the camera, however, Shipman hardly blinked before delivering his answer to those of us in attendance. "There is just not an urgent need for it," he said. "When you have Roger Deakins, adored for his film work, shooting Skyfall and he is comfortable up-resing to 4K and showing on IMAX, I think it speaks for itself." It didn't hurt that James Cameron and Vince Pace, who are also here at IBC, believe that shooting with Alexa "really feels like you are working with a film-based approach."
ARRI intercut Saturday's presentation and discussion with Deakins with plenty of Skyfall excerpts shown on the 4K Big Screen Theater, itself a kind of über pop-up cinema experience only possible through the contributions of the top-tier directors and film and broadcast companies and executives who partner with IBC. They were indeed gorgeous. It is hard, however, to draw comparisons between up-resed 4K and true 4K resolutions when caught up in the expertly shot, edited, graded and finished clips, further enhanced by a Dolby 7.1 surround sound track. Many practiced eyes here at IBC will tell you they can spot the difference between 2K and 4K immediately, and Deakins himself admitted he feared up-resing ARRI Raw to IMAX would not look good enough. But once he saw the results, he put his fears to rest. "The images I have seen in the IMAX theater are simply superb," he told the audience.
If you didn't make it to IBC or even to the presentation Saturday, ARRI has posted the full presentation in several parts, minus the Skyfall clips for obvious copyright reasions, to its site and to YouTube. Part one is at top; the remaining parts are on ARRI's official YouTube channel. You can also watch cuts of Deakins' images in the official Skyfall trailer, coming to IMAX theaters in November:

Andy Lee
LTI Films
Tecnoir

'If it looks good , it is good!'


#68
galenb

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

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Reminds me of the true story of a 500 year old wine bottle (with a history appropriate for a TV series) that was auctioned for $200.000. The world's most expert wine lovers were invited. After the bottle was uncorked, the wine reacted with the oxygen in the air and turned into vinegar immediately. The testers said the first breath they took over the open bottle was of a very good bouquet.


Oh my god what an awesome story! I love it. I can imagine a story following that of one of the guests going to search the world for that illusive bouquet that he'll never have the chance to taste and how everything else is shit. Like the guy who searched for the mermaid after he saw her. He was convinced no woman could ever satisfy him from then on.
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#69
galenb

Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:20 PM

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Mark said
'cannot be matched by grading unless you mask off and grade every single item with colour in it. This would be so expensive as to be impracticable. And is so random I cant see technology figuring out a way to do it at least not in the forseeable future.'

Mark this is easy to do I use this function all the time its essential to grading its called 'selective colour' even Photoshop has this function so you can do it on stills too.
it lets to alter each individual colour or combination of colours to achieve the look and feel you are after.
Try it its very very useful


As a projectionist Axel has no doubt watched more film stocks than all of us put together , he knows his stuff!!
I always find Axel's advise very useful.


There's also something called a color lookup table guys. ;-) Curves can give you this kind of control too with maybe more organic results. You can literally change any color to any other color in post. But to tell you the truth, I can understand what Mark is saying. Because really, that's a bunch of work we don't really want to have to mess with. I can see how sometimes you would just want to shoot something and not have to mess with it. There's a sort of trust that you are going to get the expected results when you shoot with film. I can understand that but I don't really think it's a big deal myself. It's kind of like the argument that Canon's color capture rendering is better then Panasonic. To some extent this is absolutely true. However, if you really needed to, you could get at the colors and change them (assuming they even get rendered as separate colors). It's just that it can be a lot of trouble.

#70
galenb

Posted 11 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

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All this talk of Roger Deakins reminds me of my favorite thing I saw about him on the Wall-E DVD. Pixar hired him as a lighting adviser on the film to teach their Technical Directors how to light using more classic cinematography techniques. Until recently CGI lighting has been very difficult due to limitations of software and hardware. Now that software has advanced to allow full light simulation (or at least close enough) CG technical directors have to re-think how they light...

So he starts out with a three point lighting setup and then moves on to adding fills and eye-lights and all these little specials and then starts flagging things off and really going crazy... Suddenly he stops and turns all the lights off and grabs and hand held light and shins it on the side of the subject's face and says something like, "Or you could just do something simple like this." He points out the subtle little things that get smoothed out the more light you add to the scene. His point was not to over-light and I thought it was a perfect illustration of something I've strived for for so many years. But I'm going up against the expectations of people who feel like, the more lights you use the more professional you are. Regardless of how the scene actually looks, a lot of times you get, "You have to have an eye-light!", or "There's no rim-light!" and so on. Even though, there is light reflected in the eyes from a window or the light is bouncing off the wall and rimming them just fine.




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