Super8

3 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

Hi, as I wrote in my blog article, field tests are missing and I am interested to learn about the practical impact myself.

 

I disagree with you passing on information without thoroughly rigorous testing. 

- What model monitor do you have?

- Why can't you purchase a "test with a high quality printed chart"? or go to a facility that has one?

- When and where did you send your Z6 in for the Pro Res RAW service update?

The first thing you do when testing anything is to establish solid truths and benchmarks.

Why you didn't film that same monitor test pattern with a non line skipping, moire, artifact producing camera, so you had a benchmark to work from blows my mind.

Let's say your test is not accurate because you are filming with a monitor screen. Then what?  The damage has been done already.

5 minutes ago, Falk Lumo said:

This looks like a sincere question to me. I withdraw my claim you‘re trolling and apologize.

I for myself have a professionally printed A2 version of my test chart. However, for a zone plate chart, even that shows signs of remaining printing artifacts. And Marc doesn‘t have any usable printed version.

However and because we only needed a small fraction of the test pattern, there is an established alternative in the testing scene: monitors! As odd as it may seem at first glance, they can be put to good use if a number of rules are respected. I know about at least one professional lens calibration company which is using monitors to display test charts. The most important rule is that monitor subpixels (their projection when photographed or filmed) must be MUCH smaller than a sensor pixel. Other rules are that the test pattern must be resolved with no aliasing, and that there is no flicker. We obeyed these rules. Which is also why we know to have no extra moiré effects from the pixel grid.

It is also the reason why:

1. the monitor shows a small fraction of the test chart only, such that the remaining part is fully resolved by the 3840px wide monitor. The original test chart is 8400px wide and 9.6MB large. It‘s pixels are displayed at 100% or 1:1. There is no moiré in the screen display to the naked eye. The test chart file was carefully created to avoid aliasing as much as possible, by myself. Which is no easy task for a zone plate chart.

2. the monitor appears so small in the video, as it is far away. This makes the monitor pixels and subpixels disappear completely, there are about 10 monitor pixels per camera pixel ... Hard to beat with any printed chart! It also ensures that we have spatial frequencies beyond 4k to test for. This is crucial for the test and any attempt to reproduce our results!

Btw, the article DOES contain a link to a test video before cropping.

Thanks for the reply. 

Based on your filming the test chart on a monitor you were able to verify the 6k to 4k down sample internal recording that showed full sensor readout and no line skipping?

Here's one of the test set-ups you used. 

My question is this normal to record test chart from a monitor screen?  I would think you have refresh rate and scan issues that would interfere  with the test.

My regards if I'm way off base and am asking to learn more about the process. - Thanks.

BMP6K for me.  I would love to jump to Canon but many questions that need to be answered first.

3 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

Dear fellow readers. The above posting by Super8 is defamatory. Therefore, I can't ignore the troll. I hope moderators take notice.

Let's put some facts straight for everybody to see:

• All information is in my blog post article. It contains all necessary details to reproduce, or falsify, my findings. It follows a scientific protocol.
• Super8 decided to ignore all this information and rather cite an early attempt - quickly dismissed - as visible in a public Youtube comment section. My cooperation with Marc mostly happened via email in private communication. Of course, in the very beginning, Marc had to learn a thing or two. Rather normal. I can only assume that Super8 deliberately tries to run a FUD attack against my findings. That's sad. If you don't like it, just run your own test. Then we'll talk.
• The printed test chart was never used to produce my result. Actually, I dismissed it for obvious reasons. Showing it here is nothing but trolling.

Nevertheless, thanks for spotting the error in Marc's Youtube link (he runs two channels). Now fixed in the article.

For easier reference, here is a copy of test footage (cropped in, scaled, graded) from Nikon Z6 FX ProRes RAW:

The article provides help to interpret what you see. In short, green/magenta is from debayering moiré, blue/yellow from pixel skipping.

I'll try hard to ignore Super8 from now on. Thanks.

Based on you Google Drive documents you did use the low res test pattern test that Jungbluth provided. 

My question in two earlier post was asking if this was normal and the test would be flawed by using a low res test chart.

I know for a fact rental houses and repair shops used approved professionally printed test charts for testing and repair.

You also post video test in all formats by recording the video monitor that's displaying the test chart.

You also crop in on the test chart without reference to any test video links. 

I ask for you to back up the integrity of your test.

1 hour ago, noone said:

Seriously?     MOST Sony shooters have come from other brands as photographers.       Many are not JUST Sony shooters (I only have cameras from Canon, Fuji, Sony, Panasonic currently but have used Pentax, Nikon Olympus and more...many of those are little P&S rubbish but i am on my 14th ILC currently and only four have been Sony.

    Sure there must be Sony users NOW that have not used anything else but that aint true for all.

That said, colour is subjective and many have grown up with Canon colour and that is pleasing to many people even if it is not accurate (again, I set my canon cameras to vivid for video  and jpeg usually if not using RAW for stills).

Andrew DOES have a point though I look on it as mainly just being still a bit too red in AWB 

Many Sony users can download the Live view grading app and have greater colour choice in camera than probably anyone (not the newer highest end cameras that can not use apps though for some reason).

 

 

Most of these users are not serious photographers or videographers either.  If they do video then they know how much work goes into fixing Sony color.

I've seen professional photographers that use Sony and post work with horrible unnatural skin tones that can't be fixed by shooting RAW.  Sony is not being used by serious professionals. 

11 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

The 'brand loyalty' argument is both naive and simplistic. Afterall, almost by definition, a Sony user has 'switched' from another brand over the past 5 years.

The fact is that Sony has a lot of strengths for photography especially mirrorless - it just so happens that 'color' isnt one of them.

Also straight out of camera color isnt that important to most photographers as with raw it is always something that you can easily adjust in post. And for those that straight out of camera color is important - they probably arent using Sony.

My feeling with Sony though is that their color problems are mostly to do with their 'auto white balance'....

Sony makes good cameras out side of color.

 You can't argue RAW stills and straight out of camera color and ignore Sony video color. 

-----------

So Sony AWB is the issue?  It might be a little deeper and complicated.  Other companies are using Sony sensors and getting great color.  That should worry every Sony user.

20 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

 

Lets not forget the color is subjective but sure bud.

Where does that come from? I'm asking for a friend?

If you apply a LUT or grade and going for a "look", then yes it's subjective. 

Tell me if I'm wrong, if you camera is set up and exposed the best it can be for a given shot and you capture a beautiful scene with perfect light and subject, isn't your camera suppose to capture what we see in real life, first?

That's what a stills or video camera is suppose to do at the very least.  Nothing subjective about capturing the colors that we see in real-life. 

You're kinda doing that in this thread.  So ya.

2 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

If it was "total shit" Sony wouldn't be no.1 in full frame camera sales. ?

Before some salty canon shooter tries to @ me saying i'm wrong - 

https://www.bcnretail.com/market/detail/20191124_146544.html&SAR

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sony-wins-mirrorless-race-beating-canon-and-nikon-for-2019-full-frame-sales

https://www.techradar.com/news/sony-conquers-canon-and-nixes-nikon-in-the-full-frame-mirrorless-market

https://fstoppers.com/news/sony-just-muscled-its-way-top-spot-full-frame-camera-sales-433921

 

I would kindly tell Andrew if he is wrong but he is 100% correct in his assessment  of Sony color.  Sony sales are not based on Sony color and Sony shooters have nothing to compare it with except what they've shot from Sony.

So many Sony photographers have stopped caring or able to see good color because they're blinded by brand loyalty. 

I am not a Canon shooter, yet.

Arri and Canon have the best color by a mile.

8 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Yeah, I myself reminded them, just didn't mention it because Samyang/Rokinon is wider range, lens mount compatibility related AFAIK. And I have no personal experience with that cheaper route, actually. I will but not so far : ) Your entry is 100% valid, I'd dare to second that anyway. It is worthy to give it a try if it feeds your mount needs, Mark @Mark Romero 2 IMO (E : -)

Have you taken a look on that sample up there?

"The Samyangs don't fit the bill because they are just rehoused manual focus DSLR lenses."

2 hours ago, rawshooter said:

Yes, only mirrorless mounts, MFT and APS-C e-mount.

For EF, there are no affordable lenses with minimized focus breathing. The Samyangs don't fit the bill because they are just rehoused manual focus DSLR lenses.

The closest is probably Tokina's new cine prime series, but whether it's affordable depends on your budget and definition...

What entry level EF Cine Lens would you recommend?

22 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

First, Jungbluth did not use a print out of the test chart for the tests I used for analysis. I said that the process was iterative and I wrote in the article how the chart was used.

 

Here's the test chart printed from your basic $100 personal printer.

Are you test suppose to be serious?

"Dear Falk. I just printed your test chart and filmed it with 3 setting: internal, external ProRes RAW and external ProRes HQ with N-LOG. The original, unaltered files are here:"

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5lk44pthoik9zoy/AAC-Bt1R1WEuGgTag0N0RXx1a?dl=0

In my opinion they are flawed based on printing a chart from an online source and how the test were taken.

I'll let everyone else comment and decide if the test chart and test are valid.

21 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

@Super8, sorry but I will not respond to you anymore beyond this point. You are not reading carefully enough before posting.

First, Jungbluth did not use a print out of the test chart for the tests I used for analysis. I said that the process was iterative and I wrote in the article how the chart was used.

Second, the Z6 uses 6k sensor readout for both stills and video. Except for ProRes RAW and DX modes that is. You can actually learn this from my article too. That the Z6 internally supersamples a 6k readout to produce 4k video is official information from Nikon. And that the Z7 doesn't.

Your test are flawed to get the result that you desire. 

So many issues in that test.

"Others were less naiv than me and expected Nikon to do line skipping in raw video. Of course, that would be rather bad ... why should one then use the raw option at all if internal recording uses supersampling?"

Here's Jungbluth Videografie You Tube Channel.  You linked to the wrong URL.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5wkEzkbfTQhjPSqXgsGUIQ/videos

Again?

Are you affiliated with this camera also?

You also posted about a gimbal you're secretly associated with.

You can just post one thread with all you affiliate links.  Lol and I am just kidding by the way.

10 hours ago, jagnje said:

Hahah, belive I'm no woried DP nor don't I see myself ever being fired or hired by a filmaker dad

I have seen bad bad bad footage from every kind of camera, it's not sony specific, and I have seen good footage from most. The thing is that people "need" the latitude to grade their own footage, when most don't have a clue what they're doing. Hell, most tutorials from the people that will make you think they're in the know how are bullshit. No amount od andrews magic plug and play luts will make your footage look good with a single click. It's like buying a pair of sneakers and trying to get to the olympics. 

Oh, and I don't have secrets, nor do I mind sharing anything. In fact, there are no secrets anymore, hell Roger Deakins will tell and show you how he goes about filming. 

You Tube is a gift and a curse for starting out camera Dads.

I have no problem with your take on camera Dad's or people having talent or not. That's your opinion and thanks for sharing it.  I would rather someone be brutally honest then not comment at all.

My problem with 'seasoned" DP's is the fact that they paid their dues and make a good living in the film industry, that's what we all want, but they do have a secret club attitude about helping other get into the business. I hope I'm wrong about this but I've seen it happen and been told "you have 4 referrals to join the union" but "don't join until you get on a film / show"

How do I get on a film / tv show? "You have to join the union."  It's also "who you know" and not just joining the union. 

I've done my own thing and do my own work and I like what I do. I also like learning a getting better at what I do.

I have the Ronin S and have used the Moza Air2.  I'm still learning the ins-and-ous of the S.  DJI is the safest bet as far as RND and future proofing. It's hard to trust knock off companies that make cheaper untested technology. 

4 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

I have now concluded my analysis and published the results:

-> http://blog.falklumo.com/2020/01/the-conundrum-of-nikon-z6-prores-raw.html

As an answer to the above: I didn't ask Jungbluth to do the same test I already did. I asked him to do the tests for me. The test footage is from him, the instructions, cross checking, test charting and analysis is from me. I am not determined to show "line skipping", I am determined to show their absence. But that's possible only with proper testing.

My question based on your comments are:

You asked Jungbluth to do a test for you and he used a low dpi print out of the test chart. Is that standard? 

I heard some talk that the Z6 has 6K sensor read out for stills and 4K readout for video. 

The P6K was flawless and no bugs to report.  Seems like the rushed out the first batch early on.

12 hours ago, jagnje said:

Fs7 is a great camera, with good colors. It's not the 10 bit that saves it, it's the person using it, aka not a "filmaker dad" who is also a self taught colorist, and is writing a script for a short movie in which his friend will star, so all he needs now is to complete his contanx zeiss collection which curently consists of a 50mm 1.8 and he'll be on his way to vimeo stardom.

As for sony, I don't know about their latest consumer cameras, but I owned the og a7s and it was fine in natural light, but once introduced to diferent light sources it was shit. I then started to replace and tweak lights to battle it, but soon realised it was way cheaper to buy a better camera

 

Don't worry that "filmaker Dad" is the one that's going to hire or fire you.  You do sound like a worried DP that's afraid to share what he knows because he's always protecting his job.  We all know a few of these guys.  Lol.

Why doesn't Sony adjust their color science?  Isn't Sony's color science better in the FS7 ?

Not sure what my post count has to do with my comment.  Please explain?

I thought the idea was discussing gear and specs but not really post affiliate links that you get a kick back from?

Is this spam?

19 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I don't edit in Final Cut X and don't own the Atomos recorder. Which reviews are you referring to?

Z6 users that tested the Atomos hdmi lag with ProRes RAW.  They said the lag has been reduced greatly.  I read comments in Facebook groups and on YT.

On 11/6/2019 at 11:58 PM, thebrothersthre3 said:

Very true that was a big draw for Canon, the lenses. Still can't get past the IQ. But if its good enough for you go for it, certainly would make shooting easier in many ways. 

 

Are you saying the image quality of the Canon is bad?

6 hours ago, kye said:

This is a fascinating video....

What's fascinating about it is that while he's talking about how no other FF camera has autofocus like the EOS-R and DPAF, I'm having a hard time listening because the glorious DPAF is completely screwing up the whole thing with these strange jitters and what looks like hunting pulses.

I understand his sentiments about HD, but man, that AF meant I couldn't finish watching the video.  Wow.

I guess the moral of the story is that even DPAF isn't good enough for a 50mm f1.2, which I would have thought it should be, especially by the way he was talking!

Tony doesn't have a clue what real world is.  Maybe he did in the past with photography but not for video in 2020. 

2 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

I really just want to know if the rear screen and external monitor have the same annoying delay that the Z6 has. It honestly drives me crazy.

The reviews say that delay is less for Pro Res RAW.   Have you tried the firmware update for the Z6 and Atomos?