redimp

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Ah, see I completely take the opposite approach!

As using a Gimini/Pix with it defeats the core benefit of a F3 in 2017: it is INSANELY GOOD VALUE!

And I reckon 422 => 444 is marginal gains, while 420 => 422 is a big leap. 

Is there a recorder that can record prores 422 in both 24 and 60P?

5 minutes ago, Riadnasla said:

The Gemini doesn't do higher framerates

Another thing that I've missed. Will have to look again for a recorder that can do it. 

And can you please post that link again, still can't see the video

8 minutes ago, Riadnasla said:

256GBs lasts 20mins data

Wait what? 

That's enormous, I guess that's why people were telling me that single sdi recorders are best for balancing quality with file size, like the atomos models.

Is it 20 minutes is 24p? Or maybe in 60P? 

Thanks for the images of the rig, I have the same manfrotto head, so it's good to know my tripod would do. The video link though is broken, takes me to my studio on youtube, can you please re-link? (I think you copied it from the studio page, you need to go to the page of the vid itself) I'm super eager to see that footage.

Thank you!

1 hour ago, Riadnasla said:

In post, dpx can be a nuisance compared to video codecs

Thank you for your answer! Replying to quoted above – I think Pix 240i can record to prores instead of DPX, but I am fine anyway since I only use resolve now. I guess the pros of c300 would be the size and ease of operation only? (I've heard people complain about F3's menus so much).

Ok, I swear this is the last topic of this kind that I'm making, but I have finally listened to @IronFilm and rent a cam for the actual project I'm going to be involved in, and get something cheaper for small projects and (mainly) rehearsals, pre-production and fiddling with my glass. 

I'm making lots of re-housing work for vintage glass like Lomos or Iscorama 36, so I need a cam to hook up to external monitor and pixel peep for infinity, etc.

But I also plan to do a pre-production run for a project and need to do test shots. Like we're going to shoot inside a car, and I need to know if the lens we want to use will give us the proper FOV, etc.

Also I have a charity shoot planned, with a series of interview/documentary work to do some fundraising for a local hospice. 

I need a PL cam, with big sensor (we will rent Alexa Mini most probably, I know it's sensor is bigger then F3 or C300).

We will be shooting some moody stuff, in low-ish light, going for a gritty/moody looks. 

So I want to understand what cam will serve best for all these purposes.

If I get a c300, it will be just that – a kit that I will rig on 15mm rails. If I get an F3, it will be an F3+Gemini or Pix so I get a 4:4:4 out of it, to test the looks. I will not get a BMVA to record 422, if I go through the whole external recorder hassle, I would want to squeeze the maximum out of it.

Now, would the 444 prores files be more millable in post then the internal c300 codec? I guess so, but would not know how exactly they will compare and how much more flexible the F3 footage will be compared to the c300.

I found an article that had a shootout with a download link, but it's expired. I would really appreciate if someone who maybe owns both cams can provide some side-to-side raw footage for me to play with, but I know it's a really long shot here and too much to ask.

Any opinions appreciated!

Ok, I swear this is the last topic of this kind that I'm making, but I have finally listened to @IronFilm and rent a cam for the actual project I'm going to be involved in, and get something cheaper for small projects and (mainly) rehearsals, pre-production and fiddling with my glass. 

On 10/20/2017 at 2:55 PM, Ollywood88 said:

I feel 2k 50fps or 60ps US is where to camera excels. Haven't shot 4k with it I need to.

Hey Olly! I’m looking at get a c500 with 7q combo as well, but I’ve read that if you shoot 2k with this combo you can only go up to 30p. Can you go to 60p with yours?

Also, can you please, pleeease, share some 12bit 2k original footage I can play with? I couldn’t find it online, and would love to test a couple grades on it. You can send a clip up to 2gigs for free via wetransfer website to maxprodaniuk@gmail.com

I would REALLY appreciate it and owe you a beer!

It’s a high-end home theatre projection lens. Afaik it’s not single focus, and did not belong to iscorama family.

Did you test it? It’s double focus, right?

Definitely not going to get the big ursa, that sensor is pretty bad afaik.

1 hour ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Forums are probably the best place these days. The F35 has both pros and cons vs the UMP, but most F35s you see for sale will come with everything you need to shoot, whereas you'd still have to rig up your UMP. 

In terms of a 1080p s35 camera that shoots 4:4:4 at 10 or 12 bits with good DR and a nice motion cadence, the F3, F35, and Kinemini (without 4K upgrade) are the only real options I can think of. 

It seems you are right, googling does not help either.  I guess we will have to look at 10 bit prores 422 then. Anything comes to mind?

Just now, TheRenaissanceMan said:

F35? Global shutter, S35, 12-bit 4:4:4, insanely detailed 1080p, PL mount, great DR/look. Only downside is it's a bit light-hungry and physically bulky, but they're extremely affordable these days if you look around.

Was looking at those, starting 5.5 grand on ebay. Same as UMP. Or are there better places to look?

9 minutes ago, sondreg said:

Is there a reason why you need 444 12 bit?

Well, was just looking for the best case scenario to be frank. The c300 footage hold up if you're going for a natural look, but as I've mentioned I felt 8 bit was not quite enough when I was trying to do a very stylized grading. 10 bit 422 will probably work in my case as well.

I'm sort of populating threads, but the last one turned into Sony F3 love thread, and I was not sure what I was looking for in terms of image, now I sort of am (I guess?).

I'm working on a scenario for a music video/short that involves indoor/outdoor scenes with a tad of action and lots of slow paced camera movement. I'm collaborating with a DP who is much more experienced then me (worked on lots of big productions with top gear). I am looking to buy a camera, for this particular project, but also to have freedom to start new projects later and use same gear.

I was keen that I only need HD, people sort of persuaded me I want 4k, but now I have re-grouped and I am 100% sure I will be producing HD/2k content, it will go to youtube, so there's that.

I am a lens enthusiast, I have hacked/rehoused my iscorama, also I have a very nice set of spherical lomo glass, so I am looking for a PL or interchangeable mount camera to use with what I have. I owned several small sensor cams before, and I want to go at least 1.6 crop (1.5 ideally), so true super 35.

I have a very stretchable budget, but would love not to spend all of it on a body, and have some cash for other things.

My heart was sort of set on Canon C300 after watching some movies people recommended on this forum (Blue is the warmest color, Blue ruin). That image was so detailed, I could swear I'm watching 4k! But I have downloaded some footage and tried to grade it, and if you do a basic grade it hols up just fine, but If I try to go creative about it (tried all-yellow sodium vapor kinda look from some blade runner 2049 scenes) the image started falling apart. It graded worse then my micro camera footage, I guess it's 8 bit vs 12 bit raw in a play here. The footage is sharp, I love it, but I think 8 bit is a limitation I would like to avoid. As you can see from this – I am quite inexperienced in this matter

I though I could get a Gemini to pair with c300, but I've read it outputs 8 bit only even to external recorders.

The other option I see that would fall within these specs would be the F3+recorder, but my DP hates the cam, says he can't work with it, and I trust his opinion here, so that is not an option for me.

Now to the question – does the cam I'm looking for even exist? 2k, good DR, good codec that will easily grade, 1.5x crop, cinematic motion cadence. Internal NDs would be awesome too. I know old Alexas sort of fall in this category, but they go for 10k, and that's not within my budget even.

I know Ursa does all this, but I'm scared that I'll have to get a LOT of expensive light for it, and the ready-to-shoot package will get me to $7k+ as I wouldn't risk to buy it used, so my hopes are that there's something cheaper out there maybe?

I would not get any of sony FS cams, as we both dislike sony colors. Also I would definitely not get a GH5 with speedbooster, it simply won't work.

Any ideas of a good fit here? 

First batch babies are getting ready for shipping.

5 hours ago, PepperJay said:

Hey, @redimp, I'm sorry for not getting back to you directly. When my lens came back and just twisted open, I figured it probably needed a complete housing to keep it together. As it is, I still wouldn't be surprised if Christopher at VD sends it back due to hopeless optics (that chalky looking fungus between the inner elements). But the good news is I was able to wipe the bugs off of the back of the focusing glass. Yay.

While I have you on the horn, I hope you've given some serious consideration towards a custom rear half that attaches to the front you've already developed. The weight and price point you're offering thus far has tantalizing potential and would serve as a great alternative to the limited housing choices out there. Speaking purely out of ignorance for the task, I guess the reverse engineering part wouldn't be nearly as complicated as designing anything from a functioning outer housing to full replacement of all the plastic parts. But one can dream. Anyway, thanks again for your help and encouragement earlier!

The full body prototype is in production already, but it's far down in the queue, not a top priority. Also the price is yet unknown, though it will definitely less then VD.

11 hours ago, Hans Punk said:

Once optics are cleaned and alignment all ship-shape, you could then invest in the really impressive ‘proxiscope’ front rehousing mod that @redimp has devised...a metal replacement front for your pre-36 with integrated gear that has close focus hard stops built in. It is non-destructive and requires no permanent modification to your lens. Advantage is that is a heck of a lot lighter than the VD full rehousing and since it is an easy DIY kit - it won’t require you to send your lens away and wait hundreds of days for it’s return.

Thanks for mentioning me, actually @PepperJay already contacted me about this one. Seeing bugs inside this lens gave me chills, poor 'rama

I have so far set my heart on four cameras. 

Absolute stretch of the budget and probably a stupid purchase – UMP or Scarlet X. Any of these two would set me back 7 grand for a ready to shoot package, but good news is that I might be able to rent them out and make some money back.

A very sober decision would be to get an F3, which I estimate would set me back 3 grand for a ready to shoot package with a Convergent recorder (probably the 7Q is a more viable option, as it can record 4k and is future proof, while Gemini can only do HD). I would not get a video assist, as I would want that 4:4:4.

And a middle ground option, a C500, that with an Odyssey 7Q would set me back around 5 grand if I manage to find a decent deal on it (and that's possible, judging by ebay history of sales).

I'm going to be testing all of these options, the DP I'm working with was able to find them available from rentals a day away from where I live.

Real question here is – would the image get that much better as the price grows. I mean C500+odyssey should be twice as good as the F3, and Ursa or Scarlet – three times as good. It's stupid to measure things like this, I know.
 

Anyone has opinions about this plan?

21 hours ago, Liam said:

I think he just meant like what the a7si can do. Not recording both at once, just an internal option and a better option externally

Yes, exactly this.

I was thinking to maybe get a cam that does nice and sharp HD internally, but can also output 4k externally. That way I can learn the cam and shoot cat/girlfriend videos, but when I will do some more serious work, I'd be able to just rent/buy a Covergent or any other recorder and get the proper quality video.

So you guys are saying only C500 and FS700 fall into this category?

 

14 hours ago, Dogtown said:

it can do up to 60p with the Odyssey 7Q+ in Canon RAW or converted to ProRes 444 12bit (very juicy)

I really love the form factor of the C500 (by the looks of it). Will have to watch even more footage with both HD and 4k outputs. Also 12bit prores sounds amazing.

Gonna be testing F3 in a couple of weeks from now to see what fuss is about. I'm also looking at cameras with 4k sensors that shoot HD internally (which must look sharp, since it's oversampled from 4k, right?) and record 4k only via external recorder. This way I can have a nice sharp HD and rent an Odyssey when I need 4k, or even buy one in a year or so.

So far I've only found Canon C500 that does this, does anyone know of other cams that work the same way?

Thanks!

Answering your questions – I don't own a camera anymore, sold the bmmcc a week ago along with lots of s16 lenses. Have also shot with 5d and A7s.

My goal is to get ready to a music video project we plan to shoot this fall hopefully. I make music myself and want to be able to shoot videos/stories to release along with it. I have also written a couple of scripts that I never managed to shoot because my old gear never was able to provide the aesthetics I desired – starting with extremely deep DOF and ending with a limited FOV due to the lens I used.

Currently I own an Iscorama-36 (anamorphic block) and a set of Lomo cine glass (35, 50 and 75). That's why I'm looking to get a super35 cam in PL mount – to get that shallow DOF and cinematic image aesthetics. I also own some contax glass, so in those terms I guess I'm covered. Now I just want the body that will allow me to use this glass and be comfortable to work with for my DP and myself, and reduce the technical limitations a bit, so I can get the images I want to easier.

Not sure if it makes any sense at all, but that was my logic all the way. I also expect that if I invest this much into a camera it will encourage me more to use it. My bmmcc was sitting on the shelf for the last year. Anything I wanted to use it for seemed to be a waste of effort, since I knew that images won't be as good as I want them to be.

Now coming back to your suggestions – ursa seems to have a really nice image, that doesn't look like video, more like film. I am scared of all the problems with FPN that bmmcc had as well, but almost any footage I've seen out of it looks very pleasing. But everybody very aggressively recommends to get the Pro version, because of the NDs and other ergonomic benefits, cheaper recording media, etc. Also people recommend to get it new from the official reseller, since any ebay unit can turn out to be a failure with bad XLRs, FPN, magenta corners or dead pixels, and it's possible that one will have to return the camera for exchange. I am located in Ukraine, and new pro body here is $6300, non-pro version is $5300. Add V-mount plate and tripod plate, batteries and media and you can easily go over 7 grand.

4k is definitely not an absolute must, but I'm a spoiled brat with the 5k retina in front of my eyes at least 10 hours/day. Sharp HD is fine by me, considering I will have to de-squeeze footage to 2.66 ratio, I can upscale HD to 3k horizontal. In fact I really like how sharp HD is on the BMPC 4k. If it had a better dynamic range and no noise issues it would be a perfect cam for me.

 

Just now, IronFilm said:

Nah, but I think that arguably the difference between the two is not that great.  
Especially if you want to save on the data storage and the extra cost for a recorder. 

Heck, with my BMPCC I almost never recorder raw, and ProRes444 doesn't even exist as an option, so ProResHQ is my usual choice (or even ProResLT! :-P If it is just to be uploaded immediately to my vlog).

So in a way, I'm approaching my BMPCC and F3 in the same way here. 

I'm a bit confused here. So you need a cam with 444 option activated to record 60p, but you don't actually record 444 footage?

51 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Get an Atomos Samurai Blade like I did (or get a BMD VA), you can find it secondhand for just $300ish. Or buy new for $500

Do they both record 444?

I must say, those videos from the list got me a bit confused. Some footage looks extremely good, like this one https://vimeo.com/231103934

Some other footage looks pretty bad, like this one https://vimeo.com/82889552 

Not sure if it has something to do with 444 upgrade, or using internal vs external recording. Can anyone clarify? I mean, the first clip looks very good to my eye, amazing lowlight and SHARP. The second reminds me of a bad 90s camcorder with noise reduction and sharpening going on there.

I'm collaborating with a friend of mine who's also a DP full time, he says he worked with this camera a lot in the past and it's not good, so that's holding me off from buying it, otherwise I would've pulled the trigger on it already, you guys seem to love it.

Also the price for the body is on a cheap side, yes, that $1400 cam you've linked to earlier seems like a great deal, but Covergent recorders seem to cost another $1500, and that's a 3k package we're looking at, excluding cost of SSDs for the recorder.

To be frank I can stretch the budget quite some, I think up to 4.5k. If Ursa MP 4.6 fit there it would be a no brainer, but the 4k sensor seems to be super bad, and the regular (not pro) version seems to be a hassle when it comes to media, and also does not have NDs.

The HD, well, I was super keen on that idea, thinking that "what's in front of the camera is what matters", and I also watched that video from the new Star Wars episode DP,  where he talks about how the resolution does not matter, but then I watched all these example/test videos on my 5k monitor, I realized that 4k is king. Probably with modern technologies going beyond 4k will not make sense to a guy like me, but I can clearly see the difference between HD and 4k, and I want 4k so badly!

I know, I sound like an immature child, and there is no perfect camera, and I want too much – all those features I listed in original post and 4k in addition, for only 5k bucks, and it's probably not going to happen, but can't forbid a man to dream, huh?

I've spotted a Kinemini for sale today, it's a package for $4k. Seems to tick all the boxes apart from the NDs, but watched the footage on vimeo/yutube and apart from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhyCOtG9aWE I could not find anything decent.

I guess I'm back to square one.
P.S. I really appreciate all the thoughts, guys!

I have taken a closer look at the F3 and for some reason I'm struggling to find any good videos with decent sharpness on it except for these two 

 and 

Other videos look really blurry even for HD. 

26 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

You don't need to be a canon fanboy to see some size and ergonomic differences.

Personally I wouldn't get any of them. 

What WOULD you get? Considering your channel is all about getting good deals, maybe you have something to recommend for the up to 4k price bracket for a ready to shoot package?