Tim Naylor

A lot of gh4 test videos here

Thanks for the link. Very illuminating. Looks like somewhere between 800-1600 ISO is the noise threshold. I found the test with the bridge especially useful. The high speed driving tests showed few CMOS artifacts. 

Does anyone know of an objective DR test out there? You know, boring grey card/macbeth chart, subject and frame with dark and bright areas measured with a spot meter so we can interpolate the relative limitations as we over and underexpose the frame (with filters not with aperture to keep contrast the same). I know some here don't find these tests useful. But as someone who sees potential in this camera as a pro tool, it's great to know exactly what its thresholds are especially for narrative content. Informs me on what window control, practical bulbs, what colors break down, fill needs, etc. 

If anyone's interested in doing such a test in NYC area, PM me.

Overall, I'm not blown away by the image yet. I've seen some good daylight footage (one in Nevada and Panny's original promo) but most the night, high ISO imagery is somewhat disappointing for me. 

China's just warming up. Can't wait to see how the mini shapes up. Got a feeling in a few years we'll be saying "Remember Red ? "

but of course sony has to limit it for not reason and only outputs 8bit hdmi. How much dynamic range can your really squeeze into slog2 at 8bit?

Quite a bit if exposed right, especially in SLog2. I work with C Log on C300s all the time and its DR is quite good and decently grazeable. Wouldn't surprise me if it gets btw 13-14 stops.

Let's put it this way , majority of the Cine market could not afford this, not financially but the way it requires and how it requires. And of course the whole original BMCC sector getting let down by having nothing ( no news is not always good news this time ) at all is even more depressing. In iteslf alone the cam is not really bad, but one have to question if its concept a bit of too much or rather too less this way and that way ... the big question is not how this cam work, but how the competition works. I am looking at the URSA and then I look at the BM production ( essentially 4K super35 version of the BMCC ) and I must ask myself, if its not better to have one over the others. And of course we now have to thrown in the like of Arri, RED, and plenty more ... and yes the Canon, Panasonic and Sony.

Franka, if you're looking at the Production cam to compare it with, budget in a cage/rig, rod support, XLR box, AB battery plate and mount, and then a decent HD monitor. It'll probably tip the scales over the URSA or be damn close. Both cams you'll need to buy AB batts / charger. Not cheap. If I was starting out as a free-lancer, on paper the URSA is more attractive.

Let's put it this way , majority of the Cine market could not afford this, not financially but the way it requires and how it requires. And of course the whole original BMCC sector getting let down by having nothing ( no news is not always good news this time ) at all is even more depressing.

 

Really how can customer not drawn to Panasonic and Sony, 

Not sure what the "Cine" market is. It's too expensive as a hobby. But anyone who plans to use it for work or looking to start out as a freelancer, it's a steal. An URSA will be paid off in less than 20 jobs in the first year.

My biggest disappointment with BMC is the slow chip, narrow DR, and no new firmware. I'd trade in global  shutter for a faster, wider DR chip. I'll pass for now.

I disagree. You can put a DSLR anywhere. You can do almost anything with one, put in a cupboard, shoot. Cramped spaces? Just shoot.

 

With an Alexa you need to start tearing down your sets. With an FS700 you... are just fucked. It's so bad.

Bring the right tool to the job. Just worked on a high action Ford Mustang Commercial. We were flying Epics off Ultimate Arms, high speed chases, etc. Every toy you could ask for. But the best shots came from two Go Pros taped to a piece of plywood facing in opposite directions. The car drove over it at 80 mph. 

The relevant question should be: "what are shooting and who are you shooting for?". 

If I'm shooting with clients and need multiple feeds, XLR, wireless FIZ, supporting large zooms, precise focus cues, etc, if I use a DLSR body as my main camera, it'll be so trussed up with rigging that error and time wasted increases with every bit of crap attached. Yet in two weeks I'll be shooting doc footage in Sierra Leone. For a variety of reasons, I'm using primarily a BMC Pocket Cam and a pancake lens. d

The URSA is not for the lone clientless shooter. It's for people who want a tool to make a living. Having sound, monitoring, and visuals come out of one carrying case and ready to go seconds is attractive. Its form factor from a "bygone era" will suit 90% of the work out there. I'm confident at 6k, for most working cameramen, it'll have a far better return on investment than a DSLR.

The CION requires quite a bit of kitting to be on feature parity in many ways with the URSA. You need an external recorder for RAW. As far as I can see, there's no EVF or monitor beside that tiny side-mounted one, so you need one of those. There's only a single capture card. External controls are a lot more limited. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but that it's important to note that they're using two very different design philosophies. The CION is intended to be kitted out, while the URSA is intended to have everything integrated. There are advantages to both.  

Good point. If I was in the studio camera market again for the money of either, I'd buy a used Red 1 MX. Better chip. Better IQ. 

It's amazing that people scoff at a camera that costs $9K now days. My first professional camera was a Sony 637 with DVCAM back that I bought almost 20years ago. It cost me over $20,000 without lens. Look how far we have come now! To a professional, $9000 is nothing for a tool that will put a roof over your head and food on your families table. I agree that for a little extra, the AJa seems to be a much better proposition to the professional shooter.

I'm putting together a gimbal package right now and my FI control unit alone will run 7G's. But in the scheme of things considering the day rate and that five years ago a similar unit was over 20G, I can't complain.

Back to the Cion, after closer inspection I'm beginning to suspect its the same chip as the Ursa. It's 22.7mm x 11.9mm (APS-C size), 12 stops DR and Global Shutter and suspiciously no mention of ASA. It was looking too good to be true. 

It does look very organic and natural. Best GH4 footage I've seen is in the CineD gamma, all graded versions look video-y and electronic. Weird.

Agreed. Does anyone know what glass he was using?

BMC as in Blackmagic Cinema Camera?

 

The AJA is $9k so not the same market.

BMC as in Ursa. $ 6.5 K vs $ 9 k for a more fully featured camera, lighter and better designed camera. One will more likely sit on the shelf while someone somewhere thought they were saving 2.5k. It's like the Red Pro Primes. Some  thought is was a great deal at 20k until they realized nobody wanted to use them for legit reasons. As where your Cookes, more expensive, slower but lighter and by far better IQ hold their value and in most cases work a lot. 

Once you're spending 6G or more, you're thinking of these things as tools with a good ROI. Anyone who can put down 6.5k for an URSA will probably be considering where and how to get an extra 2.5k to avoid a possible flop. 

Ok, I didn't see this coming. But BMC is DOA once the Cion hits. For 2G more you get something that has the ergo of an Aaton, 4k up to 120fps, Pro Rez 4444, etc. Please let it have a decent DR. Did I mention the body is 6.4lbs? Game changer? At the rate cameras are going glass seems like the only safe investment.

http://www.aja.com/en/products/cion#techspecs

Yes but look at what these guys are using already... C100, C300 and rental of Arri or Red.

 

What does the Ursa do that these don't?

 

If it has the same sensor as the Production Camera it will be unusable on a music video shoot because you can't point it directly at lights or flare up the lens. Black holes!

Bring up a good point. To add to it, why not buy a used Red MX for about 6-700 USD with 7" Red monitor, cards and other fix ins for the same price or less? You'll get more DR, higher sensitivity, and an EVF too.

OK glad you mention the shoulder, because I have no idea how URSA is supposed to go on there...

 

The 10" flip screen is way too big to be used on the shoulder. It would be smack right in front of your face. So it is necessary to close the screen... then that blocks the control interface and 2nd screen, along with a bunch of physical buttons.

 

Not ideal.

 

OK it does have the saving grace of the right hand side panel and good for a second camera op whilst the shooter concentrates on getting the shot with an offset external EVF on the left.

 

I thought the point was you didn't have to add any bits?

It should go on the shoulder well if you can integrate a pad underneath. If they're really smart they'd figure out a way to screw in some quick release V mount brackets. I think with an AB battery it should balance quite well. Control access on the dumb side not ideal for ENG work but great for working with an AC ( like Alexa / not like Amira).

I'm quite excited about this camera more so than the GH4. The Full Frame, S Log, DR and sensitivity is what has me. None of the GH4 footage I've seen has impressed me enough to click "Buy Now". Perhaps its the DR or LUT, but from what I've seen, the image has a certain video quality of GH3 that I never liked. The footage from the Sony so far shows more promise for my type of work. I thought the roll off in the highlights, tonal gradation, and color repro was on a different level. Hooked up to a Shogun….watch out!

Ursa's an interesting proposition. It's size doesn't bother me for most productions I work (episodic, commercials, features and docs). It's back heavy so it'll balance on my shoulder nicely. But they should've recessed the bottom more to accommodate a low profile/low CG shoulder pad (see Amira). I do think the 10" screen will come in handy for evaluating a 4k image. But if they're targeting studio style production, they should have made it swappable to the left or right side. The last thing I need is an AC breathing down my back. If a cameraman were behind the design, it'd be EVF on operator's side and large monitor on the "dumb" side. Now AC/Director would have a nice big screen while the operator can zone out alone with an EVF.

Also on the shoulder I wouldn't be using a 10" screen three inches from my face, instead an EVF. But for most productions, I find the 10" screen would come in handy. It's one less piece of gack to be dangling from some kind of arm or rigging. The shoots I work, we're flinging cameras around on incredibly packed schedules and monitor mounts eventually come out of adjustment, waste time and add to frustration. 

I do find the swappable chip a smart consideration for future proofing, given that there will be a better chip in less than two years. They took a page from Red handbook. Also, the ability to go HDMI with another camera could have advantages for shooting in cramped quarters (car mounts, elevators, closets, etc) - a more budget friendly approach than Alexa M.

Regarding the gripes about size, when you put everything on a camera you need to operate in a pro environment you either end up with something the size of an Alexa, F55 or a rigged out frankencam or rigged out Epic. The all in one approach is simple and fast to set up. I started in film many years back and while I don't miss it, I do miss the simplicity of some of the better designs (Aaton, why have you forsaken us?).

At 6500.00 you can't bitch too hard. And I love anyone that takes a broadside at RED. It's biggest limitation to large productions adopting it is the 12 stop dynamic range and middling sensitivity. I recently did a spot on the 4k BMC and while I loved the over all color imagery, its highlight limitations (especially against skies and windows) made me wishing I had an Arri chip. I actually prefer aspects of the BMCPC over the BMC 4k image. Highlight clipping is the difference between doubling the output on your lighting package or walking lights way too close to bring up the fill or gelling windows. It's the main reason why despite the rental price, most indies in NYC seem to be shooting Alexa (and perhaps Dragon later). It saves you money and time elsewhere. On the budget end, the extra DR is what has me still loving the 5D3 hack and not so much the images of the GH4 (Panasonic rep on Zacuto interview pegs it at about 11 stops and change). 

In all I was hoping for someone to introduce a mini camera (GH4 or Pocket cam size), with a log style LUT, 13 + DR, large sensor and Pro rez. Hopefully the Chinese are listening.

oh well, actually this first report just made me cancel my pre-order, i think ill wait to see if they fix the slow motion function, since this is the selling point for this camera for me and most people i think. That and the hopes for a flat gradable picture style, which isnt even mentioned.

Don't cancel. Buy it. Try it. If you don't like it return it within the 15 days or whatever the return policy is. I did that with a GH3 a while back. I wouldn't base your decision off one person's test. 

What is that image stabilizer that you're using, the one that looks like a small glide cam post?

Personally, I'm more interested in how the camera performs in actual use, not test charts. I'd especially like to see some shots with colored gels and perhaps some more intentional flaring (a small Mag Lite pointed directly into the lens would do nicely).

Personally, I like both. I'm a big fan of testing Macbeths. It gives you a clear idea on the chips color accuracy. It answered  few questions a while back why I thought Varicams had more color fidelity than Reds. Especially helpful when you need to work with production designers and you can't test every single paint, wardrobe, color, etc prior the shoot.

Thanks for the footage. The detail is what really knocks my socks off, especially the line detail against the sky. Very pleased with the report on the grade ability. 

At some point, do you plan to do objective tests? Macbeth color chart, exposure step chart, with measure exposures up and down the scale - that sort of thing. I know these kind of tests  can be a bore/pain but are great in revealing how different colors / tones react to different levels as well as DR to ISO ratings. 

Also, what ISO do you reckon is its "acceptable" noise threshold for night work?

Also, how was the Meta Bones mount to M 43? Secure or is there any hint of deflection? 

In terms of layout and usability (Menu, monitor, etc) any new notes?

In terms of capturing 10 bit 4k, would it be YAGH to Odyssey 7Q or Ki Pro Quad? Or do you have any simpler ideas? 

Last, I'd love to see how it performs under fluorescent, sodium vapor and other incomplete spectrum lights. I've had some issues with Alexa grades under flos. Hard to get deep flesh tones out of cool whites. 

Thanks for the footage. The detail is what really knocks my socks off, especially the line detail against the sky, the kind of place lesser cameras often fail. 

At some point, do you plan to do objective tests? Macbeth color chart, exposure step chart, with measure exposures up and down the scale - that sort of thing. I know these kind of tests  can be a bore/pain but are great in seeing how different colors / tones react to different levels as well as DR to ISO ratings. 

Best news is the grade ability of the codec, especially in Pro Rez. 

Also, how was the Meta Bones mount to M 43? Secure or is there any deflection? 

In terms of layout and usability (Menu, monitor, etc) any new notes?

I bring up Alexa because some on this thread think 4k is going to save the world. My apologies if I was "ranting", that was less than pro of me. My intent was to point out, that the IQ of the GH4 is purely speculation here as Andrew or no one on this thread has actually used it in any meaningful way. If it's great, more power to it! But until anyone's actually taken it to the mats, so to speak, how can you begin to say it beats out the C300's IQ. The tone here is beginning to feel like Reduser, a never ending toast to 4k while missing the big picture.

Sorry Andrew if my working on "TV crap" offends you. It's how many of us have to make a living along with shooting feature and commercial crap. Not all of us are lucky enough to own our very own blog. In my world, what makes a good camera is more than just spec sheets. There's a reason why the Epic at 5k rarely makes an appearance these days on film or TV sets and not at all at the Academies. I still use it for commercials here and there because producers love to punch in post (they don't know what they want on set). I sold mine last year because I felt the colors were thin and honestly couldn't sell it to clients for all but a few jobs.

So while slaying the 300, Mr, Reid, don't overlook areas that the Gh4 comes short - the C300's XLR's, Built In ND's, Insanely high ISO, Log C, and better lens choice. 

To your relief, I realize I stepped into the wrong playground and bid this forum adieu as I return to my TV, Movie, Doc, and Commercial Crap.

While your right to point out Canon needs to step it up, your lionizing of the GH4, a camera that isn't even out yet and one that you haven't even tested in a working environment is a bit speculative beyond reason, borderline fanboy. I use C300's constantly for national broadcast shows because the codec, form factor, storage and power draw ideally suit broadcast work. While you go on about the 4k abilities of a GH4, most pros and networks would take the 1080p of an Alexa any given day. And you seem to overlook the most glaring shortcoming of a GH4 - Micro 4/3's. It's a chip size that's neither here nor there. Too small to give a truly cinematic DOF and too limited in the choice of lenses. Then there are design flaws with the GH4. The HDMI cable will still get in the way of the flip out. Do you know if the 1/4" mount and lens mount have been reinforced since the GH3. I've ripped the 1/4" mount right out of the body from some mild vehicle mount and bent a lens mount with an Olympus zoom. The C 100/300 will easily hold a 70-200 without a lens bracket.

In short, please stop talking like the GH4 is a success before you actually used one on a job with paying clients or extensively tested it. This sort of speculation serves no one, except perhaps Panasonic.

Thanks Andrew for laying this out. For those who doubt it theoretically, this is already done in camera by C300 and Alexa.  C300 takes 8 bit 4k image, down samples to 10 bit 422 1080p and then re-packs it to 8 bit (to fit in 50mb). Alexa takes app. 3k image down samples to 422 10bit 1080p then up samples to 444 pro rez. 

But what I'd really like to know is what is the exact recommended workflow. Is it 4k 100mb to After FX RGB 10bit then to 1080p? Help.

So the million dollar question for me is what will give the best IQ at 1080p? 4k internally then downscaling or 1080p 10bit to an external via HDMI. If it's the former that'd be even better. Lighter, smaller, save the downscale after locking the edit.

Experts?

I did it for years with HDV. Downscaling 1440x1080 to pristine SD. You get almost 4:4:4 SD from 1440x1080 4:2:0 HD. It's easy to see. Just shoot something in HD that shows the chroma artifacts easily and downscale to SD.

 

I got a better SD image from early HDV consumer cams than great SD cams like the DVX100.

 So I would do the downscale on any transcode software (Adobe Media Encoder or Compressor) or would I do it on the timeline of an NLE? Any settings other than the output codec I need to be aware of? 

Thanks for the good advice. For someone who delivers almost exclusively in 1080p, the GH4 is looking most attractive.