Tim Naylor

has anyone on EOSHD got any Bausch and Lomb Super Baltars or Baltars?? as I'm keen to see what these look like in a shootout with  a KMZ Helios 58mm

 

The Super Baltars where used by Gordon Willis to lens The Godfather , he shot 90% of it on a 40mm Super Baltar...

George Lucas and Gilbert Taylor also used them to Lens Star Wars .

 

I'm keen to see if a Helios has a similar look to a B+L Baltar........Rich at DogShidt can you give me your thoughts on this as you are into Helios' in such a big way.

Baltars were the first lenses I learned film on. If you really need the Baltar look, make sure to have the best AC you can find. They're a bitch to pull focus because the low contrast and the narrow focus draw. If you look at Godfather, it's mostly simple static operating and some relatively straightforward dolly moves. Nothing terribly complicated.

I hope this is the right thread for this, I didnt want to open a new one...

 

So I own a GH4, a Speedbooster (for some Canon Lenses) and the Panny 12-35 2.8 (as an allrounder). Now I am really thinking about giving back the 12-35mm and getting the Sigma 18-35 1.8 instead and put that one on the Speedbooster.

The main thing that bothers me about the 12-35 is that the focus ring is...pretty much non existant. For video work it is nearly unusable IMO.

What do you guys think?

 

Also semi related: I need to get some NDs...Vario or fixed? And does it have to be the Heliopan ones or is there a cheaper alternative with as good a quality as the Heliopan ones?

 

Thanks a bunch in advance!

Get both. Regular ND's will always be better optically but there are situations where they are not practical. If you're shooting doc work by the time you change filters the shot is gone. With variables, I don't lose the shot. I can live with artifacts and getting the shot as opposed to no artifacts and losing the shot. I set my stop and just ride it up and down. The problem is cheap / bargain variable really suck. Mainly color shift being the problem. Fork out the money and get a decent Heliopan or Tiffen IR Variable ND if it's for paying work. For regular ND's I recommend the Tiffen White Water IR ND set (3,6,9,12,15,18, 21). Colors are clean as a whistle. 

Cool. How do I delete this post. Can't seem to find it

I don't own a GH4 and one of the reasons was the lens situation. I felt affordable cine style lenses were few and far between. Then I came across this. These lenses seem to check all the right boxes (standard fronts, small, .08 gears, fast stop, etc, 3100 for a set of five, etc). The only issue I can see for my style of shooting is that the 35mm and 50mm lenses have their front element seriously recessed. This makes flaring the lens difficult to the point of having to have your source extremely close to the edge of frame or in the shot. It's the reason, Schneiders are dead to me and Zeiss / Cookes are great in that regard.

Of course, cosmetics aside, the proof will be in the performance which is why I can't see myself buying a set unless I could test it. My non-cine Nikon AIS set blow away my Rokinon Cine Lenses even though they don't look like movie lenses. 

Love to  know if anyone has an interesting take on this or inside info.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/665053329/veydra-m4-3-cinema-lenses-for-gh4-and-bmpcc

That's why never look at reviews done by people who don't actually use them in the same jobs you do.

 

But seriously, the A7s is pretty good but it does have color issues. I didn't really believe it but now that I have done some grading with the a7s I feel like there are issues. Though I also believe these issues will disappear a lot when the Shogun arrives but that will increase the price of the a7s way up. It will also decrease the usability as the HDMI port is quite rubbish (as it is with all DSLR's) and will most likely break.

 

But Sony being Sony they will probably introduce the a7s II with IBIS and some more issues.

 

All this complaining aside, SLOG2 can look absolutely wonderful. Especially during high brightness situations like bright sunlight. It does give the image a "high-end" feel. Just don't use it all the time. Sometimes it's better to switch to the cinegammas, especially those that are 16-235, like Cinegamma 2. Of course then you will have to match them images but that's the thing we are learning right?

The first job I did with the A7s, I went through three HDMI cables over two and half weeks of shooting. Micro HDMI is shit. Then I bought the Movcam cage and have at least a hundred hours with it. I haven't broken a single connection. The port lock is that good. This would work well with a Shogun. My only wish is that Atomos  would make a smaller recorder, like a 4k Blade or something. 

Tried Kholi Hicks color profile and it's a huge improvement if you need a full range of tones to play with. However, sometimes, I find myself going out of S Log2 and shooting PP6 for outdoors. The 3200 ISO of SLog2 can be a POA.

A very long but interesting video about proper exposing in slog2 to avoid colored noise, not just in the shadows but in the skintones as well.

 

This is excellent. Thanks for the post. Not through with it yet, but so far it's thorough and makes a lot of sense. Where people get the time to put this together is amazing.

I know I have said this before, but let me reiterate that I'd like to keep this post about how to get the best grade out of the A7s.  If you want to sell the pros of another camera as well as slag on the A7s, go ahead. But please extend me the courtesy of doing it on another thread. I'm not a fanboy as I admit and understand the A7s's flaws. The purpose of this thread is to try and solve/mitigate them as best as possible.  The upsides of this camera are undeniable and the reason I own it. The downsides are not insurmountable and worth tackling. So keep the conversation in that direction.

Thanks

Shot a music video over the weekend using the Kholi Hicks Pro Settings.Really popped in a nice way. Will post once I get a cut.

Probably not the answer you're looking for but the source material can be "fixed".

 

If the images look bad on Chrome (wtf is Google doing to bit depth?) try IE or Safari or whatever.

 

Thanks. Much appreciated.

Thanks everybody for such informative posts. I'll be shooting a job this weekend with the A7s and will be applying quite a bit of what I got out of this thread. But still keep the info flying.  I especially found the Espionage Films Tests most encouraging. They got some excellent tones out of the camera. Not perfect but more than acceptable.

Resolve it is. Will repost same clips after I screw with it on resolve.

Looking at the Brandon Li footage, it actually looks super close to what you get out of an F3 shooting Slog2 to an external recorder in 4:2:2.

 

Tim, have those clips you posted look like they've had some sort of grade applied to them. Is that correct? What are you looking to get out of the grade?

 

I should be getting my A7s in the next few days so can advise further, but I've never turned up saturation on the log recording in-camera. Might be worth shooting a couple tests without the saturation turned up and see if it's easier for you to get closer to what you want.

There is a grade on it. The problem I'm having is getting what I'd call an "honest" flesh tone from black skin. It's close to as I see it but still has a whiff of green hue. Having difficulties riding btw green and magenta. I'll definitely play with resolve lite in the coming days. Overall, I'm trying to get richer, deeper colors. 

 don't know how to delete redundant post. Sorry.

Tim, the only person I've seen get half-decent colours from the A7S is Brandon Li. He recommends not using S-Log unless you really need the dynamic range. 

 

I've seen Brandon get really beautiful colours with other cameras (I bought the Nikon D5300 largely because of the colours I'd seen him get out of it) so if he can't do it I'm not very hopeful others will. Sorry but I believe it's a lost cause. I'm saving for a C100 instead. If you need a discreet camera for street stuff like your video above, personally I'd prefer a GH4 + speed booster. If it had to be full frame or low-noise, perhaps a Nikon 810 or 750. Sorry, not very constructive really!

Thanks for the post. I actually quite like the Brandon Li footage. This is definitely acceptable for what I expect from the camera. I bought this primarily for its low light abilities. On this front it has saved my butt a few times. Last job I did we did an interview in a heavily tinted Camaro, lit by just the dashboard, with virtually no noise.I know there are cameras with a better color profile, but for now, I'm trying to squeeze what I can from the A7s.

I didn't post this thread to get into a pissing match about this camera or that or what I should buy or not. I've been in this business for a long time. I'm a big boy and have owned a myriad of cameras from HVX's to Epics. I carefully weigh the pros/cons of a purchase. I have the A7s now. It does things that no other camera can do (which is why I own it) but has some shortcomings (which is why I'm posting).

It's like when Kodak came out with first 500T stocks (yeah, that's how old I am). We were all ecstatic about it, used it but knew from the get go it would never match the 100 EXR stocks in terms of color and grain. But it could still allow us to do things we wouldn't dream compared to the 100EXR. We found a myriad of ingenious ways to get more out of it. As DP's we shared that info openly. I was hoping for the same here.

So please, if you want to start a thread on why it's inane to own an A7s, please do. I was just hoping on this particular thread we could keep it to specific ideas, settings, protocols to get the most from a great but flawed camera.

Thanks.

Thanks for the heads up. Keep em coming. Also, if anyone has some stellar examples of full rich accurate flesh tone, please post.

I love lenses with character.

 

I prefer to use vintage lenses as they come with some character, whether that be weird bokeh, lens flares, distortion or close-focusing wide lenses - a lot of this stuff you don't get on modern electronic lenses in exchange for AF and IS. 

 

I love lenses that flare like crazy such as the Helios 44-2, yellow coated Super Takumars (like the 55mm) and the strange Mir 1B 37mm - all very creamy, odd and unique looking. 

 

I absolutely love wide lenses that have a very close focusing distance, so you can get this rather intense, beautiful close-up with a massive, shallow background. The SLR Magic 12mm is a favourite and I believe (although not used) Contax Zeiss 28mm 2.8 "Hollywood" achieve this. 

 

Modern lenses such as the Samyang/Rokinon Cine DS line  are fantastic for having gears, de-clicked apertures and almost the same filter thread size across the range (very useful stuff I want) - but having never used them, are they worth the punt for a guy who much prefers some personality in the glass? 

 

What lenses do you use that have some kind of "character"? Speak up!!

I own the Rokinon line from 24,35,50 to 85. The 24 is the weakest of the bunch. Don't shoot below 2.8 if you want it sharp. 35 is a leap better. The 50 is a good all around lens. It's minimal focus is a bit long for a 50mm. But it's plenty sharp over a 2.0. The 85 is my favorite of the bunch. Haven't done enough flare work to judge that aspect. The gearing and the de-click are nice. The focus  throw on all lenses are somewhat short (150 degrees or so) which is great if you pull your own focus but tight for a follow focus. I use them with my A7s package.

On the long end I have Nikon 105 macro 2.8, 135 2.0 and 180 2.8 all AIS. These lenses are in a class of their own. I use them constantly especially for interviews. I also use the 180 a lot for picking discreet long lens shots (as a 70-200 attracts too much attention sometimes). I'd put them against any modern lens. The color rendition, sharpness and build quality are top notch. I'll keep this set long after I sell the Rokinons.

Check out the Pretzval. Not the most practical lens for everyday shooting. Used it on a commercial for interviews and the client went nuts over it. Truly a different look. 

http://shop.lomography.com/us/lenses?gclid=CNPSkNqJ-MECFW8A7AodhCYAMQ

Another favorite of mine are Super Baltars. But they've become quite pricey.

The thumbnail is grab of an interview we shot on the Pretzval 

Hello all,

I've been a DP most of my career, a situation where I shoot footage and then the manipulation of the footage is literally out of my hands. With movies, I sit in on the grades and supervise, but I don't actually work the tools. On commercials, the footage is completely out my control after wrap. Except with cutting and grading finished  footage for my reels, my experience with hands on grading is moderate. Now, however, I'm originating many of my own personal projects: shooting, cutting and grading them.

Much of this burst in personal creativity has been inspired by the A7s. Its size, sensitivity, etc has truly liberated much of my shooting. However, while I've for the most part have been able to get the tones I like, the A7s has been exceedingly difficult. I find getting a rich and accurate flesh tone difficult.  I know it can be done because I've seen a few excellent examples. Most examples I've seen have been disappointing. 

So what I'm asking is for anyone who's unlocked the secret sauce to share their LUTs, CC settings and shooting protocol. 

Here's some footage I recently shot for B roll for project I'm shooting. S log 2. Exposures have plenty to play with. I boosted the saturation in camera by 10-13. I did a pass in FCPX CC. I can't get the grade right.

And this is footage from a screen test for one of our talent. I was able to get considerably better colors on my 5d3 in the flesh tones. Also originated on Slog2, A7s, Sat +13.

I'm considering purchasing Osiris. Any thoughts or alternatives I should consider.

Please lets keep this on topic and constructive.

Thanks,

Tim

For what it's worth, except for a few misgivings, the A7s, has reinvigorated me about what a camera can get away with. It's become my home movie, personal and some pro project go to. Anyone thinking of getting it, I strongly recommend budget in the Movcam A7s cage. Barely bigger than the camera it solves a lot of issues. If has a bracket lock for Metabones style adaptors. I have a EF MB mount constantly on my A7s. The Movcam mount bracket takes care of the freeplay between Metabones and camera. It also adds a second mounting point further securing the camera and taking stress off the E mount. It also has a proper hdmi lock. The first job I did with the A7s, I went through three micro hdmi cables in two weeks. Since getting the Movcam cage, haven't busted one. I can actually swing the camera by the cable (not recommended). Last it has two levels of quick release: 15mm rod mount to tripod and camera cage to 15mm rod mount. So you can go real small and pop the camera off in seconds with nothing but cage and top handle. Got mine off Ebay for 340.00 with rods / rod mount and hdmi lock. I don't work for them, just jazzed about a product that'd even make German engineers green with envy.

But no. A7s has been measured to be about 15-20ms (depending on measurer) in aps-c mode, that's pretty much the standard on any CMOS camera that is s35.

 

I also wouldn't call 100mm a normal slide look, usually slides are done wide angle instead of semi-telephoto. Actually, I don't even remember a slide that needs global shutter that much, usually it's handheld that gets most damaged by rolling shutter, not slides.

 

I'm trying to figure out your shot, apparently your slide was very fast and it had buildings that were slanted. That's just an odd slide if you ask me.

200mm, sliding across product. Think commercial where you shoot rather small products. We're shooting 30 to100 ML bottles of NJOY product. It'd be similar to shooting Manhattan skyline from Brooklyn where you want to feature individual buildings (in case you've no small bottles lying around). Slow slide and we still had leaning tower of Piza effect. Swear to God, not making this up. For work, I've usually use the usual suspects (Alexa, Red, C300, F5/55) and of course their skew is considerably less. All that said, the director still preferred the A7s over our F55 for the low light, mobility, and full frame. He creamed his jeans when we threw on Pretzvel. 

Starting a feature next month, I'm going to try and convince our director to go A7s. It's noir. 

How fast are you going? I mean APSC mode on the a7s is pretty much on par (or even faster) than other CMOS cameras anyway. So comparing it to one of the few global shutter cameras (F55) is quite wrong.

 

If A7s is unusable to you in APSC mode then so is every CMOS camera except ones with global shutter (F55).

These were pretty slow slides. Wish I could post them but dailies are with client. Overall, the APS-C rolling shutter isn't much of an issue except when I'm longer then 100mm, tracking sideways or panning with strong architectural elements (Buildings, fences, products, etc). Trees aren't an issue because who knows how straight they really are. Medium to wide lens, not a problem. But I often shoot product shots 150mm and above. Recently, we had several bottles, beakers, etc for a product shot at 200mm and after several attempts at very slow slide, the skew was still noticeable so we swapped with an F55. The A7s, starts with perhaps the worst skew in the business, so even at APS - C it still has worst skew than most other CMOS cameras. 

For personal and indie products, much if not all this is easily fixed in post. But on jobs where the footage is out of my hands and the director's too with a client that wants to turn it around yesterday, that level of skew will lose you work. It's the kind of thing that if they love the idea of full frame, APS-C and low light performance of the A7s, I have to read them the riot act on its rolling shutter issues and work arounds. If you're in the market, I'd say rent it, see what you love and hate, then balance it with your needs. Overall, the camera's still a winner, with drawbacks.

can't find delete. Sorry.

Heres a short clip from a documentary i'm working on. This was shot probably 50/50 full frame and crop mode. The opening slider shot was in full frame mode. 

 

I am not finding the rolling shutter to be an issue at all

 

Try sliding on a  long lens (above 100 in FF) with architectural  elements in the foreground. Even in APSC mode it's pretty bad.

Thanks Andrew for you posts on the A7s. Much of what I gleaned from this site, help me decide on buying it. Now having owned it for almost two months, I must say, I too love it. It's far from perfect and agree with most of your observations. But it's rolling shutter issues cannot be overstated. It's not pretty and the worst I've seen. Certain types of a organic action (with people, animals) look fine but things with straight lines (buildings, cars, etc) truly suffer. Much of my client work involves B roll of locations and product. For this we quite often break out the slider to add more taste to the "eye candy" shots. The moment you start sliding sideways on any type of telephoto, even at the slowest of speeds the rolling shutter artifacts with architectural or product elements become unuseable. APS-C mode still yields bad rolling shutter in this situation.

It's the one trait that truly holds this camera back from being great and relegating it to more specialized work with clients. My last job, it was used alongside an F55 as a "B camera" but perhaps comprised more than half the total shots in the final cut. If it didn't have the rolling shutter issue I'd have rather put the F55 to sleep and use two A7's. Clients get weak over full frame. The size and low light really made it indispensable. But for product / slider shots, we had to give it a rest. Sony came real close.

For stills however, this camera has revolutionized my world. The size, low light, silent shutter and articulating LCD has really enabled me to get the most candid of shots that I just couldn't dream of with my 5D. The moment you put a camera to your face and people hear the click, the magic often is gone. Also, for location scouts for my video work, the APS-C mode has been great for "photo boards" and pre-selecting focal lengths for super 35. Something I couldn't do with my 5d.