Quirky

What do you think?

Meh.

So far it appears to be a mere gimmick to attract the tech geeks. Although in a much better looking package than the first time around. I'll check back to the topic after a few years or gadget generations. It might evolve into something interesting 3D-related, but I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

Compared to the NEX5N, and I presume some of the other older NEX range, the A6000 is a lot bulkier and not as comfortable to hold. Although I'm guessing that extra bulk may accommodate whatever cooling system they've implemented, so it doesn't overheat like the 5N did, along with the pop up flash, larger hot shoe etc. I'm sure I'll get used to the size though.

To me the added bulkiness is good news, whatever the reason is. I think the 5N/5R was almost too small and poorly equipped. I'm also happy that they got rid of the annoying NEX menu/user interface. If only they also put some 'serious' guts inside a reasonably bulky consumer model, and got rid of the AVCHD codec, as well as the low pass filter. The jury is still out about whether a touchy-feely display would be essential or not. 

New a6000 reviews are popping up these days, done with the production model, but I'm still looking forward to some more video-centric reviews. I think we've all established by now that it's got a pretty fast AF system, so I wouldn't mind reading about something else for a change.

Just curious how many people are waiting for real reviews or for the release date of A7s in order to get it instead of the GH4. Would also love to hear your view on whether a very good 1080p is good enough for you.

Be careful about using the A7s and GH4 monikers in the same sentence, for that may be considered arguing. It's a sensitive topic, you know.  :P

Seriously though, yes, I am waiting for the A7s. But I won't be buying one instead of the GH4, either, and I'll probably wait and see what other options will be available within the following few months. Nevertheless, the A7s sounds interesting from both photo and video point of view. 

To me the GH4 would mean having to start investing in a whole new system along with new lenses/adapters, which is something I'm not too eager to do right now. That might quickly eat up the apparent price advantage the GH4 has in my case.

And yes, "a very good 1080p" is indeed good enough for me, for now. Which would also make it a bit easier to get started with the A7s, even though it has no internal 4K. If I'll actually go for one. I bet both of these new 4K cameras can deliver decent enough 1080p, too.

What are you arguing for then?

Arguing???

What makes you think I'm arguing about anything?

People don't read too good these days.

thanks to you all for the excellent replies.

 

quirky - my work is archival footage of architecture for the state historic society.  I spent my career shooting architecture with a 4x5 for the library of congress, and all these little cameras seem like toys to me, so I don't think it is just GAS...  I wanted to shoot this new archival footage at the highest possible resolution to achieve the best possible quality for long-term documentation purposes - I am not trying to shoot "cinema". 

Well, that little piece of info would have been useful background data to know, and it might have had an impact on the replies - or at least to the tone of them - you received. 

Nevertheless, I think that what I replied is still more or less valid, with the GAS and other less serious remarks put aside; it all depends on what you are getting the new camera for, and in this case, that wasn't known.

But even if it was for an archival purposes, wouldn't it still be good to be able to see (and edit right away if necessary) the footage that's going into the archives? My point being the notion of either shooting in 1080p until the computer hardware is up to the job of editing 4K, or waiting until both the camera and the computer are on the same level. So that there won't be any unedited footage left for a later date. Provided that the footage does need editing. And, as mentioned before, fortunately the GH4 can do pretty good 1080p, too, if one's computer is not 4K-ready, yet.

@Quirky: it's my personal opinion. 

Ditto.

 

Not because I'm a fanboy. 

I've never implied such thing. No need to defend your acquisitions, either. Your life, your money, and so on. 

Like I said, it's a matter of taste, and depends on your personal needs. 

Besides, you brought up the A7s angle in the first place, not me. We're all just sharing our personal opinions here.

Peace.  ;)

@Quirky You're making me feel so guilty ;)

Oh there's no need, it's your life, your wallet and your decision. Your GAS, too.   :)

I'm curious how long it will take before there is a real competitor (same price range, internal 4K recording, hybrid stills/video). 

About 5 months.  ;)

 

I can't even see the A7S as a direct competitor because it will be at least twice the price with the required external recorder, that only will ship by the end of the year.

An external recorder for the GH4, brick or a monitor, will cost the same.

Whether it'll be a direct competitor or not may be a matter of taste, and depend on one's personal needs. With the whole 4K infrastructure being so young still, I don't think the A7s will be late from anything yet.

Although Panasonic will no doubt get plenty of advantage, thanks to the pricing, hype and early availability. Even if one won't shoot 4K yet. Wouldn't mind having one, but if I buy one, that will have to wait a good while longer than May fifth. 

I know this is drifting way off-topic, but just one more for the road. :)

Technology is going to change how we live. Yes there are some analogue, old school ways we like to hang on to, it's nostalgia and personal habits. I for one, as you see, believe that technology will make everything analogue obselete, 

There are two distinctly different forms of obsolete, a practical, technical obsolescence and commercial, market obsolescence. Which don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.

Most "old school" analogue tech is deemed commercially obsolete, which means the mass market will abandon it gradually, but that doesn't necessarily make it technically obsolete, let alone unusable. Sometimes the 'old' tech can still survive much longer inside a suitable niche, because it is not technically obsolete. Some people still like to use it, for a number of reasons. Practical and emotional alike.

For example, I own a bunch of vinyl albums and I actually enjoy listening to them once in a while. Not because I'm a curmudgeon, not because of nostalgia, but because I happen to own gear that can play them (well), and because they still sound great. I sort of enjoy the analog, tactile media, too. I do have digital music both in my computer and on CD's too, though.

It's kind of similar with the SLR tech and the flippy-flappy mirror, but with one (actually on topic) caveat.

The mirror has already become commercially obsolete, despite Canikon's stalling tactics. But that doesn't mean the OVF has become suddenly useless in stills shooting, if one happens to own such a camera and a bunch of lenses. It doesn't even stop anyone from making dSLR's for a (gradually) niche(-ifying) market, either. There are still some manufacturers (and buyers) for analog audio gear, too.

But as long as video shooting is concerned, the flippy-flappy mirror has been technically obsolete since day one, ever since the analog video cameras. Therefore a "video dSLR" is a bit of an odd and impractical concept to begin with, isn't it.

The confusion is caused by Canikon, who are trying to postpone the inevitable commercial obsolescence for as long as they can, with the help of their still massive marketing inertia. That is, as long as the mainstream market is concerned. The one that matters commercially.

The pro video market is just a small part of Canikon's total revenue. And yet, Canon are offering not only an embellished dSLR (1Dc), but a whole C-x00 line of dedicated interchangeable lens video cameras for the tiny pro video market, but not for the massive mainstream market. Nikon don't even have a pro video market to speak of.

Hence the difference between commercial and technical obsolescence. One is more social, another is more practical. One can be forced or stalled, another tends to happen more naturally and gradually. 

 

 

yet I still only drive manual-transmission cars, even though automated ones outclassed them in every single possible way, even speed. Why? It's a habit, a nostalgic feeling I get, a love of mine, but, it is obselete.

I don't think the gear box analogy is a particularly good one. It has very little to do with either form of obsolescence, and more to do with matters of taste and regional preferences. 

The fact is, a big part of the world outside the US still uses, and even prefers, (myself included) the manual gear box over the traditional automatic one. I know it's the reverse in the US, where the (traditional) automatic gear box is the default choice in almost any tin can on wheels. But that doesn't mean that the automatic transmission inside an American commuter has "outclassed" the manual one inside the similar/same commuter elsewhere "in every single possible way," let alone in every single possible situation. That's just another flavour of enginerdspeak.

But as stated, this is going way OT. My excuse is that this post-Easter Tuesday feels like Monday.  ;)

I have a gh4 on order to replace the d5300 I have been using. I have downloaded a couple of 4k video clips to try editing them, planning to shoot in 4k and render in 1080. My computer just can't handle the files. 

I really don't have another $1000 to throw down for a new puter right now.

Should I just shoot in 1080 for now, or should I go ahead and shoot in 4k and just archive the footage for a while?

Well, it's really quite simple, isn't it. It depends what you are buying the new camera for.

To actually shoot, edit and publish real video footage, or just to admire and fondle a cool new gadget? 

If you couldn't edit and publish the footage now, what would be the (practical) point of going for a new tech camera in the first place? GAS, perhaps?

If you ask yourself those kind of questions, I believe the answer will be pretty clear. It has very little to do with external vs. internal drives or  other such computer trivia.

FWIW, I'd be happy to shoot 'only' 1080p with something like a GH4 or an A7s if I had the chance, because the 1080p they produce is probably pretty good. Then again, I'd probably wait until I can afford both the 4K camera and a 4K-capable mojo, and until then, I'd just keep on using my existing 1080p camera. Not much point in shooting for an archive, just for the sake of having a shiny 4K logo on my camera. IMO, anyway.

I have tested it.

 

On the A6000 the HDMI is free of onscreen icons so you can record from it. It is also uncompressed so you avoid the worse instances of break-up with the crappy internal AVCHD codec. However there's a lot of processing being done to the signal between sensor and HDMI output. I don't think it is 4:2:2 and the pixel binning process loses you quite a lot of the original sensor data making for a thin signal. End result is that although you can record it to a 10bit 4:2:2 file, it doesn't look like one. It looks only a little bit better than AVCHD!

 

Still lots of banding and blockiness especially in shadows.

Is there any way to confirm whether it's 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 out of the HDMI?

Do you happen to have any samples of that banding issue, espacially via HDMI?

I'm still somewhat curious about this camera as a potential b/hybrid camera, and I already have an Atomos Ninja, so...

The optical viewfinder just doesn't give you an accurate representation of the image. It looks lovely in and of itself. That's about it. Time and again I was misjudging manual focus and exposure because of it. Focus meter is horrifically inaccurate with manual glass and non Nikon CPU lenses.

One of the many reasons why the industry is gradually moving on from SLR technology into native digital technology, with or without Canikon, is the focus issue. By moving to native digital cameras and direct sensor view we can get rid of the need to do micro adjustments (calibration) to the lenses, to make them focus properly with the OVF.

Myself being a still shooter coming from the analog world, I'm not so used to shooting with live view on cameras, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the live view compared to other cameras.

I'm coming from the analog, photo shooting background, too, but I don't find it all that difficult to migrate to EVF's and native digital cameras. In fact, after having used them for several years now, I no longer find it all that difficult to let the OVF start enjoying retirement, even when shooting stills. When shooting video, it's obviously a no-brainer.

Nevertheless, I do still have one dSLR which doesn't do video at all. I've kept it mostly for the 'exotic' sensor, not because it has an OVF.

As you pointed out, Andrew isn't primarily a stills photographer, so if he wants to have fun dissing the optical view-finder... 

I'm not speaking on behalf of Mr. Reid here, but have you taken a peek into the OVF of your D800 when shooting video? What do you see?

Exactly. So, since we're talking about video here, how is he "dissing" the optical viewfinder, when the OVF is totally obsolete in video shooting in the first place?

At least I was under the impression this was a video-centric forum, and his blog was a video-centric blog. Shooting stills only is another matter altogether, and generally for another forum, too.

 

 

In the end, I think we all agree, ALL viewfinders are limited.  There are pros and cons.  

In video shooting the dSLR OVF's have just one little con, they're useless.  

But other than that, indeed, they do all have their pros and cons.

The Canucks sort of agree. 

Respectfully, I disagree. Magic Lantern proves that DSLRs are not dead. They may appear dead because Canon dosn't push the envelope like BlackMagic or Panasonic.

Don't underestimate the power of the Canikon marketing inertia in the mainstream. That's the key factor here, not the form factor. Magic Lantern is all about electronics and firmware, and hacked one at that, isn't it. It has nothing to do with the dSLR form factor per se. Or even Canon directly, for that matter. 

Surely you agree that a traditional (d)SLR with its flippy-flappy mirror is a bit of a peculiar form factor for a video camera.  The same electronics and the ML firmware hack would make much more sense inside a mirrorless enclosure like the C100. The traditional dSLR is simply awkward and clumsy as a video camera. Lots of unnecessary dead weight and unusable bits that force people to rig them into complex contraptions, only to work around the obvious shortcomings of the dSLR design. Mirrorless designs don't have such handicap.

The only reason we've still got HDSLR's in the first place is that the more or less unintended "happy accident" happened to the mighty Canikon with their overwhelming marketing might and their dSLR-only line, rather than to any of the underdogs with existing mirrorless models. The ML hack itself would live quite happily inside a different, more compatible form factor, too. 

Well... it's hard to tell because of YouTube compression and zooming while recording, but suppose that doesn't look too bad for a compressed YouTube video. That window scenery is indeed a good candidate for luring out moire and aliasing. All that was missing was a puddle of water...

I hope someone with both the A6000 and an access to an external recorder could do a sample video of the HDMI out quality, too. Does it really do pure 422 straight off the sensor? I'm just curious, for now. 

You're right, Andrew, you need this site to be exclusive to a membership, as I see you've been infiltrated with people from No Film School, where alls they like to do is argue over absolutely nothing.

Umm... no, I don't think that's it. It's simply about the use of the N-word. There seem to be plenty of empirical evidence about that in the archives of this and many other online forums, even beyond lingual barriers. I don't know why, but that just seems to be the case. 

For some unknown reason the N-word just happens to be a potent bait that will lure in the most eager enginerds within a light year to have an instant feast. Therefore simply locking up this forum for a selected few may not solve the problem. It'll just dry out the forum instead. 

Q.E.D. Just be careful with the N-word.  ;)

You're right on close inspection it does not quite have the resolving power of the GH2 in 1080p.

 

And yes there is still some moire.

With or without an external recorder (HDMI out)? Or with both?

 

But it has a raft of other nice stuff that the GH2 doesn't have.

 

Final review coming soon.

Looking forward to it. Hopefully tested with a Ninja (or Star, or whatever) and without.  Just curious.

 

So the question is simple, would you buy a 5d mark III now? 

 

Nope.

 

 

Or would you wait the end of this year at least?

It depends. If I had an urgent need for a new camera, I wouldn't wait for the end of the year. Otherwise I might wait. Not for 5D3 or some other Canikon dSLR, though. But your personal preferences and your budget may be different.

Your life, your money, your decision.

Canon brought two small chip camcorders (nothing revolutionary) and one expensive pro zoom lens to NAB and they had their representative one on one with Dan Chung from News Shooter on Teradeck Booth. Just watch the guys from Canon and you will see that they have their faces red like lobsters because they didn't show anything that matters and everyone around is inovating and lowering prices, but somehow their new ordinary cams are more important to talk about then two great new Panasonic cams. You have Atomos Shogun with A7S, GoPro with Ninja Star talks etc., but the Shogun is best paired with GH4 because of the 10 bit hdmi output and nobody talks about that. They covered almost everything else there and it was good to see so many interesting new products, but to me this is a little bit disapointing.

Canon are still a big sponsor for many of the entities behind NAB, as well as for many pro shooters. Nevertheless, Canon will have to deal with the consequences of their more or less phlegmatic appearance at NAB eventually, somehow. They'll risk making themselves increasingly irrelevant.

On the other hand, the Atomos Shogun was released right at the same time as the Sony A7s, at the same venue, so it was only natural that the two were represented together. But Jeromy made it pretty clear that the device is made for all 4K-capable cameras, not just the A7s, which should be screamingly obvious, anyway. The Ninja Star was said to be maid especially the GoPros and other light action cams in mind, but it, too, will work with many other cameras, including the GH4, obviously.

Who said life is fair, anyway? Life is not fair, and no doubt it looks even more unfair to a fanboy of almost any product.

With a little bit less fanatic fanboyism, life may look a little bit easier to tolerate.  ;)

I don't know, maybe it's too soon to tell, but I've been following their posts since the beginning of NAB and there is not a single post about one of the most exciting products this year. 

Which is a welcome relief, and only fair to all the other new products released just now, or recently. Some of us are just happy for the (brief) chance to read and buzz about something else than the GH4 for a while. Even though the GH4 seem to be creeping in other product talks, too.

Before, during and soon after the release of the GH4, it got all the hype in the industry, and it was all that was talked, and even obsessed about around the blogoshpere, including this site.

Panasonic chose to release their new mainstream product well before NAB apparently for that very reason, to ensure their place in the limelight, with the undivided attention of the camera geeks, bloggers and the rest of the media alike. Including Mr. Reid.

Had they saved it for NAB, and they'd have had to share, or fight for the attention with many others, including Sony, Atomos, AJA, Blackmagic and so on.

Besides, NAB isn't really aimed for the mainstream audience. It's more like a pro trade show for the video broadcast industry, or at least that's how it apparently started. The GH4, on the other hand, is a product aimed more towards the mainstream audience, and it has already had its first 15 minutes. I think even Sony might have done better with a later release date for the A7s, some time after NAB.

But worry not, there will still be other trade shows for both pro and mainstream audiences later on this year, and no doubt the GH4 will rule the EOSHD forum, too, for a good while longer. :)

Well you've confused me now.

It means just forget the hype, ignore the whiny enginerds and wait for the real thing with the final firmware to arrive. Then, and only then draw any far-reaching conclusions. All conclusions drawn before that are just meaningless nerdy-nam-nam. 

As for the literal meaning of that one sentence, surely you don't want to fall into the pedantic mode. He just made a slight typo, and he was simply referring to the 5D3 sensor being larger in megapixels than the A7r one, and thus it's slower to read and process all the pixels on the sensor. I believe the rest of Noob's comment was pretty clear.

In other words,  just hang on and wait for the final product. Meanwhile, get off the internet, grab your existing camera, and go out and shoot something. I think that one single "test" video has got way more attention that it actually deserves.

How incredibly condescending towards non-pros.

I don't think FilmBrute was being completely serious, and even if he was, who gives a scheiße.

Whether it's just hot air off an inflated ego of a pro cinematographer, or whining off an easily intimidated enginerd, it doesn't really matter. As long as we don't have the actual product with the final firmware in our hands, or even know the actual street price, all of this is just pointless waste of forum bandwidth.

That one silly video is a poor piece of "evicence," it doesn't really prove anything yet. It just shows how easily online memes are being born, especially when the hype machine is running with full steam.

So, until we've got the real thing, like Elmer the pig said, Move along, nothing more to see here, that's all folks. 

Over the last few months it has been a shame to see such good information from level-headed people here on the forum being totally drowned out by poor quality posts, bullshit, rudeness and just general argumentativeness or stuff which has nothing to do with filmmaking or even reality.

 

Frankly it is becoming a real pain to moderate and I just don't have time for it.

 

All over the internet forums are the same, they are all a total PITA to read because of a disruptive few.

That's the internyet in a nutshell, or at least the gadget/tech-oriented online forums. All gadget geek subspecies tend to bicker and whine, and get into each others' nerves at times. The more popular the site gets, the harder it becomes to maintain a good signal to noise ratio.  

Anyway, how about "hiring" a trusted moderator or two to help you in keeping the loonies on the path? That's an old-fashioned, but still a working solution, isn't it. Might be a better solution than a strictly closed forum, which might dry out and die after a few months or so, despite good intentions. Well, just a thought. Carry on, one way or other, as a private club or an open bar.

There goes my dreams of ghost hunting with this camera. Going to be a lot of leaning Slimers in the frame.

 

Well, you can always team up with Steve Huff, and ask him for ghost hunting tips.  :P

BTW, whoever did that wiggling seemed to make sure it looks as bad as it possibly can. I don't know which lens was attached to the camera, but he zoomed it in all the way to the telephoto end, which will obviously magnify the effect.

Nevertheless, if the price will actually land somewhere near three grand or even more, that, together with he wiggle might make it hard to justify the purchase to myself. But better to wait and see, ignoring the hype, until the final product is here, along with the final price tag.