Posts posted by padam
8 minutes ago, noone said:
True but i have a strange feeling the disappointment will be a fraction less this time.
I am considering getting an RP as a general photography camera (either that or an AF Sony portrait lens later this year). Is the RP video THAT bad?
Yes, it is still going to be a huge jump up overall, it just won't be nearly as unlocked as the R5 and some features won't be as good as the R.
Owned the RP for a short time, kept the R in the end but not because of image or video quality. If an RP came again at a low enough price, I would probably buy it, just to cheap for what it is, I use small rangefinder lenses and the weight is better suited to the RP and they look great with Canon colours.
1080p a little bit softer on the RP but still Ok, the RF 24-105/4L IS has excellent stabilisation and sharpness, works great for the RP.
The cropped 4k looks really great, if you can manage manual focusing and the really bad rolling shutter. It won't like high contrast situations, dynamic range not great but if the subject is exposed well, it looks pleasing.
So yes, not nearly as bad for video as some think it, the built-in picture profiles of all Canon cameras are known to be great, but I guess sharpness is generally overrated.
9 minutes ago, Michi said:
"Crippled" like the S1 compared to the S1H? The rumors suggest 4k60, ibis, two card slots... If that's without RAW but with C-Log and AF in 10bit for 2000$, I'd buy two of those before a 4000$ R5. Or... just one R6, but stay in business 😂
The S1 series are permanently crippled with their AF and lens ecosystem which have to be priced high because they will hardly sell any of them (besides the size of the camera body, but they've promised smaller cameras at least)
Canon is not stupid to kill their own cameras, this camera will lack both the internal processing power and the sensor dynamic range to shoot C-Log.
Even their C200 is 8-bit or RAW only.
This was exactly how it went with the RP when only the partial specs were disclosed and then they've found out what's actually the entry-level camera. It will be improved, but no way it's going to step on it's bigger brother's toes.
Would they scale it up to 3000$ and get less buyers because they are not looking at these specs? I don't think so.
People just love getting excited and then angrily disappointed.
39 minutes ago, independent said:
If it has full frame 4K, 10-bit internal codecs, IBIS, and of course dual pixel AF, it’ll kill in $2K market.
It may have it (on some recording modes) without the better internal codecs and Canon Log. And the uncropped 4K rolling shutter is probably bad.
But being in the Canon ecosystem with 4k60p and IBIS means it will sell well, no matter what.
14 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:
We have been seeing these R5 prototypes out there for a couple of months now. Maybe with the final R5 production model, Canon will sneak in a proper cooling fan? Without that, I don't see how Canon can do this 8k/4K properly. The Canon C200, C300, C500, C700, all REDs, All BlackMagics, Sony FS5, FS7, F5, F55, FX9, All Varicams, EVA-1...and S1H have cooling fans to control sensor and processing heat in 4k/6k/8k. If the R5 really can do all that they say it can with no line skipping and/or pixel binning.. .in a passive cooled body? That would make the R5...THE..greatest electronics engineering marvel that man-kind has ever seen! Absolutely no question at all! It will literally make all the fan-cooled Canon Cine models look foolish. (And any other fan cooled 4k/6k/8k camera too) Hmmm...or maybe it's just me that is foolish for expecting all this incredible R5 8k/4k 10bit and raw capability to be fan cooled in 2020.
I'm telling you guys....the devil will be in the details, asterisks and fine print that Canon will only reveal the day this camera actually hits the streets and all NDA's are expired.
Only the S1H is worth mentioning from this list which is both huge, heavy, and also very expensive variant of an existing camera tailed for video needs specifically.
All the others are not stills cameras, therefore totally different category. They have always been, so they can be pointlessly compared all day long.
Most of the FF competitors record 6K downsampled and compressed down to 4K.
This camera is recording 8K without any downscaling from a next generation sensor using a next generation processor.
Is that really such a huge challenge in terms of processing power if the CFExpress can handle the speed required to transfer the data? Same with the H265 8K encoding, provided the hardware specifically supports it.
I am not sure about full sensor 4K (what if it is binned in all 4K modes to be great at rolling shutter) but at least it is at the ideal downsampling size compared to 6K.
31 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:
ehh I don't know, its time for the 1DX MK2 to die. Its already got a successor that blows it away.
I am hoping the R6 will be priced above the EOS R and below the R5.
For sure, but it also costs close to twice as much money-wise, and used prices will drop even further beyond that.
Yep, that is the other option, although the cheaper build quality over the R might be an indicator that Canon is thinking it would sell it in much greater numbers, if they just price it under the competition and cripple it more, while also being ahead in other areas (the main headline of the A7III is still price per features)
1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:
Not having log would completely suck. Its the reason I still haven't considered buying 1dx MK2
Yes, but I can't see Canon putting C-Log in a lower-tier camera, unless they want to cannibalise their own EOS R and 5D IV
I can see them saving costs on the sensor as well and leave it with the lower dynamic range, so it would be really noisy in the shadows anyway, even if it did come with Log. This is something they can still decide on via firmware, like they did with 5D IV or 1080p24p recording, ugh...
It would also suck somewhat for 1DX II owners, if it did come with better dynamic range besides other DSLR related things like fixed screen, no EVF, no IBIS, no low-bitrate 4K codec, etc. all is well-known. I'm still seeing great-looking 1DX II footage even with custom-made profiles, this camera could make that level of video performance much more accessible in a very light and compact camera body.
10 hours ago, tweak said:
What's the go with all these Youtube videos with youtubers getting all excited about 8K RAW? I mean most of them don't even deliver Youtube in 4K, let alone 8K... Are all these people paid by Canon or what? I mean there isn't even any footage out there yet! hahaha.
R5 sounds like a great camera, don't get me wrong, but 8K RAW is a moot point for most people out there, even those who actually make films for a living. I'm really keen to see what the R6 delivers, R5 just seems like unnecessary overkill for my uses (I shoot for a living).
From the 1DX III, full sensor RAW video looks to be truly amazing, we already know the bitrate will be a new record (but the H.265 should be a lot lower)
The main question is how bad the rolling shutter is going to be. The crop factors, record limits are really critism over a vast amount of great specs around a camera that has all the bases well-covered. It seems very powerful and may not cost over 4000$ as they want to sell it to the "5D-class" users, even if they don't use video at all.
I think it is not a feature most people are going to use, but it helps with staying relevant for a long time, it is a glimpse into the future, where media is cheaper and it is easier to process. In the past, people were stunned, when they saw prints from image frames taken out of a 1DC, cropped 4K with 8-bit 4:2:2 MJPEG, the standard CF cards were ridiculously expensive then (as well as the camera itself), now we have 8K with a RAW codec with AF and other goodies for many times less. That's progress.
Other point is exclusivity, it's not not expected from other manufacturers. Because to match this, other manufacturers basically have to copy it (which they don't tend to do, they all stick to their own formulas and model lines, etc), it does need the exact same number of megapixels and it makes the most sense on the FF category as well, on a smaller sensor it seems like a bigger compromise, and the ecosystem of medium format options is too small at this point, EF is still the biggest and it's perfectly integrated.
I am afraid the R6 will be crippled regarding video to keep it "safe" from the 5D-level of cameras, so it won't be a direct competitor to an A7III or A7IV, it will be better in some ways and worse in others.
As the expectations because more realistic, it looks more and more clear that this camera will be a considerable step down over the R5 targeted at different users.
It is much more simplified with a mode dial, and no top LCD (maybe they can add in a joystick since they did add that to the 90D as well) and it is how a 6D Mark III would be imagined in a mirrorless body with IBIS.
So they can still make the 1DX III in a mirrorless body or maybe they will wait for the next generation of sensors and more complete lens line-up for that.
Yes, they could be lowering the megapixels to the original 6D level, but with that they can add useful video features without driving the cost up too much. I also probably does not need Digic X for processing.
I am betting will have 1:1 crop UHD 4k60p and the rolling shutter is going to better than the EOS R but not at 1DX Mark II levels.
I also expect it to omit 10-bit and Canon Log profile (not great, but expected to differentiate it)
So it would be 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264 IPB compression internally, and 8-bit 4:2:2 externally (like the EOS RP)
It would not have DPAF in 1080p 120fps (like 90D or M6 Mark II) and I am not sure if it has it in all 4K recording modes either.
It would also keep the EOS R "semi-protected" and as the cheap available option for people who want a B-cam with 10-bit 4:2:2 external Canon Log recording.
Now the question is: are they going to limit the dynamic range of the sensor only for video usage (like the 1DX Mark II) and it will be much better for still images, or it is going to remain low to being with?
Because it is still 6D-class camera, not a 5D-class like the R5, and they can keep the price as low as possible?
For the longevity, it would probably be better it to cost more and have the sensor with the better dynamic range and Canon Log for video.
That would step over the EOS R for video for sure and it's not that old yet.
I guess many will be unhappy about most of this, but even with all this crippling it looks like a decent photo/video camera, it would have some the video feature set of the 1DX Mark II with more modern codecs, flip-screen, EVF, IBIS, it does have dual card slots, etc.
8 hours ago, Video Hummus said:
Well with a 54mm diameter for R mount there is plenty of room. L mount is ~52mm.
So badically comes down to IBIS mechanism.
And also the lens lineup, best is to have IS+IBIS together, and electronic IS can be added on top of these.
I'm guessing even EF lenses will be fully supported, but RF will be more effective.
7 minutes ago, Django said:
Again I do not see many limitations to the 1DX3 aside from its price tag. 5.4K internal RAW is actually a first inside a FF hybrid. Just like when 1DX2 introduced 4K60p inside a DSLR in 2016.
As for the Pro EOS R, I believe that won't be EOS R MK2 but a much more expensive high-end model.
They need to move those pricey RF L lenses, and if those are anything to go by I don't think Canon will go low on specs for their eventual flagship high-end model.
I am not saying it has many limitations, but taking away 4k60p AF is there to protect the cinema line. And it is going to continue with the flagship R stills camera as well in one way or another, which will probably be cheaper than the 1DX III, therefore more limited in terms of available options.
Yes they want to move RF lenses and they will do that also by releasing RF-mount cinema cameras as well.
16 minutes ago, Django said:
If/When these specs trickle down to the Pro EOS R model with RF mount & IBIS, is when people here might take notice.
The way they've decided to limit this camera suggests that they will limit that camera even more. (IBIS adds more heat anyway)
Or they might not even bother releasing a lower megapixel R at all this year, keeping the R Mark II around 30-40 MP (8-bit internal codecs) and do a separate video-oriented model instead and get back to this one in 2021.
On 4/16/2019 at 6:59 PM, currensheldon said:
I have used a variety of mirrorless cameras, starting with Sony A7s and A7rII and then the GH5 and most recently the Canon EOS R. The only camera that Ive held on to long-term is the GH5, so I was very excited when I heard Panasonic was releasing a full-frame mirrorless camera. Now that it has arrived, it is truly the most professional, robust, and beautiful mirrorless camera Ive used. I bought and tested out the Canon EOS R, but found it frustrating ergonomically and with hindered video specs (big crops, no stabilization, etc), it required a lot of compromises. It took beautiful images, but for video (which is what I mostly do), the GH5 outperformed it in every way.
Next to the EOS R (and definitely all the Sonys), the Panasonic S1 feels like a true professional camera. It's a bit heavier than the other mirrorless cameras, but since I mainly use Sigmas 24-70, 18-35, or 50-100mm, once you have the lenses on there, it's not a huge difference. Its actually more comfortable because the grip is so nicely designed.
After the firmware update the tracking Eye-AF on the EOS R works very well now, not much to complain about (they've also improved the banding, although I've never noticed it).
I can't see this camera beating the R for stills(apart from the IBIS), just does not have the lenses (either new or old) or the AF system (in AF-C) to compete with it, it is much stronger for video (and for tougher conditions or manual focusing). And the price is much higher here, 2000$ seems like a more reasonable deal. After re-selling the kit lens(which is also very good just like the Panasonic), the EOS R cost me only 1450$ grey market, and the EF adapter is cheap, too. Can be considered as a "weak" camera body to start with, but as a system it is still looking strong.
I expected more "true native" (not re-modeled) lenses from the L-mount alliance. Canon (or Nikon) as a single company will have more RF (Z) glass as a single company within a year, even with EF-mount not taken into consideration.
11 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:
Commlite already have the electronics aspect done so only a matter of time for the optics to go in I suspect
Looks good, 0.71x would mean going back to 1DC levels of 4k crop and the extra stop makes it more similar to the 1DXII in low-light as well (but one stop brighter in daylight, it is fine for the trade-off, really)
55 minutes ago, Snowbro said:
No, it has extremely bad rolling shutter in video. You really want to go all the way back to 2012? ?. Anyway, it sounds like you probably shouldn't stop at a 1.8x crop, hopefully canon will release a locked 8x crop for you one day! Btw, I owned the 1dx ii and eos r; I think the 1080p in the eos r looks very good, just not in 60p, it looks terrible in 60.
No one is happy about the crop or the rolling shutter (I am sure you were very happy about Log in the 1DXII), it is just what one gets from Canon at this price range and it still looks quite decent, simple as that, the RP is just way too limited in every way for not a whole lot less money. Panasonic Sony or Nikon all do FF 4k with internal stabilisation, but somehow I just don't prefer how they look. They also don't have the lens selection and support that Canon has.
Looks very solid to me, rolling shuter or not.
I think that this external raw thing could be completely bogus anyway, since originally it was offered 10-bit 4:2:2 external recording(4k only, so no 1080p FF to fight the trolling shutter), but maybe it is one of those rare cases, where they do actually react to what's out there (but it could take a fair few months to update the firmware anyway, even ver. 1.2 is a month away).
If someone would crack the RF code and release a fully functional RF-EF focal reducer, for the EOS R (just like there is one for the M50), it would probably sell like crazy.
2 hours ago, Snowbro said:
I always wanted 1.8x crop raw on a $800 extra (with battery) that adds an extra pound with (as Andrew says) wobbly hdmi cable. The 70ms RS is the icing on the cake! I know some of you say that you only care to shoot 1080p, that's great, in 2012-2018 maybe, but it's 2019! I can see a big difference even on my phone, when it recorded in 4k and playing in 1440p. TV's are also much bigger, not to mention 4K UST projectors are getting quite cheap and I have seen many people set those up now (120" + screen at 7" from wall).
I can see the appeal of raw, but I personally would rather just have 10-bit internal 4k with low RS and low to no crop. I would take that anyday over external raw on what I mentioned above. It will come in time and we might even see an R body within a year, that lacks the drawbacks. Raw on the eos r would be much more attractive, with low RS and crop. Thats why I feel they might actually do it, that addition won't threaten their segmentation of the C line; I can see them omitting 1080p from the raw, just like they did with the current 10-bit external to protect the c100 lol.
Moaning is always the easiest thing. That rolling shutter is probably measured for FF stills, it is around 30ms for 4k, quite close to the 1DC which is of course quite severe, but if I search around for 1DC footage, I don't see it looking like crap, the opposite. And it uses 8-bit 4:2:2 MJPEG, which is very far from Prores RAW (which is what the 1DXII also uses without Log btw, can't wait to see someone doing a dynamic range comparison on that)
This is not destined to be an A-cam, it has its limitations but it's looking like an even better B-cam for the C200 now. Yes, they will release a much better video-stills camera with probably a similar sensor to the 1DXIII (I guess around 24MP and 1.5x 4k60p crop, I would forget about FF but we'll see), but it will be bloody expensive.
It well and truly buries 4k ML raw in the 5D III for good, that's really not bad at all for around 1500$ grey market plus the cost of the recorder (after reselling the kit lens, which is also rather decent).
Personally, I just use the 1.8x(1.9x with IS) cropped 1080p internal recording on the R (sometimes in FF, but the crop is downsampled, so not really degraded with electronic IS), and for now, it is perfectly fine for my needs, and I don't move the camera around like crazy.
I liked how the 6D Mark II looked in comparison to the A7s, but it was very soft, and now I am fine with cropping in (and with more rs, similar to the A7s) for fixing that, but still have pleasant looking 1080p footage (with AF, although I think I still like MF better, after using it for long).
5 hours ago, ntblowz said:
M50 with speedbooster blah blah blah
That comes with its own drawbacks, because it is 3rd party SB, it drains the battery even harder, the 4k crop is 1.81x vs 1.6x (same difference for the full sensor mode) , the 4k and ISO doesn't seem to look as good, and you cannot use the same crop lenses for photography without changing the adapter(with SB FF lenses for stills, the quality is really not that great either), so two adapters, more accessories to buy for a depreciating system(the RP includes the adapter so it's not exactly double the cost), a speedbooster can still come to the other as well. And I also mentioned the body differences, the RP looks better in that regard. I am not saying it is that much better, but it is certainly an alternative.
Of course there will be the M model with 4k DPAF enabled, but it will be very close in terms of cost or weight (new batteries again, etc...) maybe they will might give that something else to keep the system appealing.
9 hours ago, IronFilm said:
You might not need it, someone else might not need it right now, but it is handy to have it there, the full range of options: 8bit, 10bit, raw!
Plus it is Nikon, it is always going to be more than just the spec sheet
Of course, I just feel that even if it does have it, I might still consider moving up to the next model anyway, because it doesn't heat up as much, the AF is not compromised in Log mode (that is actually less than the specs sheet) the battery becomes stronger, etc., I don't feel like it is so much more future-proof because of that.
This also applies to the external recorder as well, needs to be less toasty and less power hungry, with cheaper compact-sized media, etc. or maybe better internal recording can reduce the need for it.
Being an early adopter vs. waiting it to mature a little bit. Each has its own advantages.
1 hour ago, ntblowz said:
M50 can use EF and EFS lens with Full HD and 4K, RP can only do 720p or 4k on EFS lens, that is quite a big difference, beside u get 120p slowmo and 24fps on m50 which is not an option on RP.
Let's break it down a bit more then: they are all the same modes effectively(some differences with processing as I mentioned with the 1080p), only more cropped in by the M50 by default, because it is already a crop sensor.
I think the 720p 120fps which is the only real difference, is almost completely useless, even softer than the already very soft EOS R in the with the same frame rate.
I also don't think it is really necessary to use any kind of EF-S glass on an RP (most of them are not constant aperture zooms, why would you want that for video anyway)
EF just works just fine for photo and video (if you are vlogging for instance and want a wider angle 10-18mm f4.5-5.6, it is definitely unusable in 4k - even if there was downscaled cropped 1080p like on the EOS R, it wouldn't matter that much. So much more logical to stick to 1080p and use EF glass anyway, not EF-S)
Apart from a really excellent value 11-22mm f4-5.6 wide-angle zoom, and generally being very compact for an APS-C camera, the M system really doesn't offer anything special (yes, the recent 32mm f1.4 is also quite nice, but not cheap and there will be an RF 50mm f1.8 with IS included...)
27 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:
Its not a bad cheap C or B cam option TBH. The 1080p probably sucks but 4k should look pretty nice with Canon colors. If you don't need auto focus its a cheap small option. Though is it worth more than a Canon M50 at $500. If you do 4k the crop on the M50 isn't that much more.
You can find M50 footage on the same channel, I think the RP 4k image looks crisper, 1.6x crop vs 2.56x total crop is pretty significant to me and the low-light is no contest.
Yes, you can add a 3rd party SpeedBooster for more monnies, but why not just go for this one instead, especially when it comes bundled with the 100$ adapter (or you can add the control ring or even ND, cheap EF glass, etc., etc.)
So as some suggested, while they are in different price categories, it certainly pushes the M50 back a little bit (keeping the EF-M system slightly separate from the rest doesn't help either) Tried it for a short time, I don't have big hands but it feels too small for me, not the same level of controls.
For 1080p it is more complicated, better low-light with different look on FF versus better quality 1080p on the M50 but with more limited lens choices.
I hate to say this, but while it really does not offer much, it does that rather well at its price point (pros and cons in the video description)
14 minutes ago, Michi said:
Yes, I too think it‘s highly unlikely we‘ll ever see an EOS-M body that ticks all my boxes. But hope dies last (as you say in german). Maybe some day a mirrorless 7D equivalent will come, be it EOS-M or EOS-RF...
And regarding the EOS R: in principle I could work well with what it offers. But I don‘t like the idea of investing 2000 bucks to use only half of that cameras potential. At the EOS RP price point, I‘d consider it (but would still be screwd when using it for stills). Im fully invested in S35/APS-C, no need and no intention to go FF...
My tip is on the M5/M6 II is the flip-screen (hopefully) with the better controls and build quality the DPAF enabled for 4k (surely) same M50 sensor (likely, the two codenames certified for 24MP) not a huge amount of change, but at least not a significant increase on the pricing either. I don't see them pushing further with that same battery.
Just because there is going to be a high-end 7D-level camera, its primary target of sports and wildlife will not change, so for me doesn't mean that it will not have a further crop for video (but probably improve on frame rates if that is a factor, maybe like 4k60p, the R has no slow motion whatsoever in crop mode), if Canon really showcases some new advancement for video, it would make sense to debut it in the most expensive model that they make first, like they did with 4k60p.
But I see your point perfectly on the R, Canon is just being too clever in what they (precisely) offer with every model that they make, they just give a little more every time in comparison to what they take away, and it is still working for them.
11 minutes ago, Michi said:
I'm no expert but I assume there could be heat issues in smaller bodies like those of MILCs. Maybe also energy issues. I shot with the C100 and shoot with the C200 now. Both have fans, the one in the C200 blows like a ventilator when not recording. Also the batteries are more than double the size of those used in DSLRs and the EOS R (and you still have to change them after 2-3 hours of shooting). So for me it's highly unlikely we'll ever see a DIGIC DV in a stills camera.
I think we video-shooters will have to live with the fact that Canon won't ever give us what we want in those smaller Stills-Bodies. I used an 80D as a B-Cam and now use an M50 for that. Both cameras worked fine when I was shooting HD only. Now I switched to UHD and it's a PITA. The lack of DPAF in 4K on the M50 is a big disadvantage when I want to use it for a close-up angle in an interview. Almost all my lenses are APS-C only so I don't want to buy an EOS R. Still hoping for a more powerfull EOS-M body with full sensor 4K and DPAF. Other than that, what's left for us, the XC15? There are lot's of things to like with Canon: support, AF, lenses, reliability... But yeah – looking at all their releases since the C200, theres not much to be happy about as a video shooter...
The EOS R looks like a nice enough choice for EF-S lenses, it seems quite obvious to me, that they are not going to give crisper full-sensor downsampled 4k in their much cheaper APS-C cameras, the R would certainly loose its video appeal (even if what it offers seems inadequate in many people's eyes). Even C-Log is questionable in a flagship M-series camera, but the 2.56x crop (although Focal Reducer compatible at least) would keep it isolated from the others. A proper video-based S35mm XC-series camera, sure, why not (at least it is still an additional model that they can sell), but for how much, based on the XC15 pricing with a much smaller sensor.
A few Canon models can do HDR video in 1080p, but if you move the camera the rolling shutter will make the two separate exposures visible.
As technology improves, they can probably do it in 4k with less artifacts.
4 minutes ago, Kisaha said:
You call Nikon Z features limitations, then you bring a 8.500€ video camera into the conversation with Raw lite, which a few lines above you called an unnecessary feature for the Nikon, and apparently lighter codecs than all the aforementioned full frame cameras.
You are definitely not a Vulcan!
That is exactly my problem, just looking at specs sheets, price tags, claiming this one better than that arguing etc. and really not much else.
I guess that's why lurking at forum is useless in general, because there might not be that many succesful people spending time there and providing useful advice rather than enthusiasts being very enthusitastic (or deeply hateful) towards something.
Canon EOS R5 8K monster official topic
The last known rumors were saying "lower your expectations, the sensor is not a 1DX III sensor at all, etc."
Well, Ok, I would rather pay more and have all these features, but from Canon's point of view, it makes no sense at all to kill their own market and we know how they are keeping the 5D line and 6D line well-separated from each other.
In my opinion:
The R5 has IBIS dual cards CF-E plus SD 8K 4k60p 4k120p 10-bit Canon Log, better low-light than previous-gen Canon cameras
The R6 has IBIS dual cards SD plus SD 4k60p (cropped I think) 1080p120p 8-bit no Log, but also better low-light than previous-gen Canon cameras
They are both have much better video specs than their older ancestors, but they are also not stepping on each other's toes.
Also, the cheaper cameras are much more simplified easier to use with a mode dial, simpler controls, etc. that's just how Canon designs its products.