Andrew Reid

I would have thought that it gets to 65C sooner than 25 mins. So let's try this... Record 4K HQ in 5 min segments, and after each 5 mins measure EXIF temp with a JPEG and immediately start recording the next 5 min clip. Then log all the recorded temps - for example: 0 min: 30C 5 min: 65C 10 min: 65C 15 min: 65C 20 min: 65C If it holds steady like that at 65C for ages, we know it can handle 65C and we know it would need a further increase in temp later on to trigger the shut down. BTW 65C is the temp Magic Lantern reads out on the screen on most of the old DSLRs during 1080p. It is very unusual for a CPU to hold steady at a certain temp for 20 mins, before giving up at 25 mins or suddenly spiking upwards even thought the processing load has been consistent for the past 20. If a CPU can run for 25 mins steady at same temp (65C) without crashing or thermal throttling, it can run for another 25 mins at that temp, and another.

Take it they didn't want to lose face then by giving the hacker $400!

What causes the internal temp to go up is the CPU because it is the main heat source inside the body, as shown by our Chinese friends with the infrared thermometers. So even if the temp sensor might be on the PCB rather than directly measuring the CPU, it gives us a good idea of what is going on and how hard the camera is working to raise the internal temp in the EXIF data. So if you measured it from a JPEG EXIF straight after a long 4K HQ shoot via HDMI, and then again after 20 mins of internal recording of 4K HQ or 8K, and it showed the same 64C in both cases, it means surely the CPU is not generating more heat in the internal recording mode. And it is not shutting the camera down to protect the sensor from heat caused by an 8K output, as it is doing that output for hours in 4K HQ mode to HDMI. I'll add that to the rather long list of oddities about the camera that will be presented to Canon Japan management next week.

Some of the best poetry I've ever read on a camera FB group: "For everyone saying they have been open and honest since day one, it’s just not true. It’s more like they have been compliant since day two."

Found somebody who needs a good dose of truth. Let's set the record straight with this Canon rep as customers. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1327837727266187/permalink/3065603700156239/?hc_location=ufi The post permalink is only visible once you join the group. Please be polite. I was a bit edgy and they banned me immediately. The Canon rep who needs convincing is Charles Zablan in reply to the Torsten Christensen comment on the link to the EOSHD blog post. I don't see much humility from him given that I just paid 4380 euros for a duffer. I've put the screen grab below so you can find it in case permalink doesn't work properly.

So EXIF temp reaches same figure for both external 4K and internal 8K recording?!

R6 is only 20 megapixel, no excuses really. What is it doing differently to a 20 megapixel GH5 in 10bit 4K? to create so much extra "heat"? And that camera is 3 years older. Full frame sensor doesn't create a lot of extra heat. What's it doing differently to an S1?! Another example of the new-for-2020 style cripple hammer.

I tried it, didn't work. Bit of light 4K HQ recording, got "heat" countdown limit down to 20 mins with an SD card. Put my frozen CFexpress card in fresh out of freezer. Still 20 mins.

It correlates to what I see with a bit of light stills shooting, no video, then as soon as you go into video mode 4K HQ runtime is really right down in region of 5-10 mins. You'd think after turning the camera off with it not ever having recorded a frame of 8K or 4K HQ, it would cool quite quickly after a few stills but the long recovery cripple clock still seems to tick at the same slow rate! I have also tried putting a CFexpress card in the freezer and bringing that into the camera with the 4K HQ clock down at 20 mins, and it didn't budge at all, so if it is reading temps from SMART for hot cards it could have fooled me.

Let's not forget that regardless of IF or HOW it overheats, Canon is still to blame because they chose to botch the internal layout with no proper heat dissipation for DIGIC X. No heat pipe or thermal pad, no direct conductivity to the chassis. The cripple hammer is either that or the firmware. Take your pick. Personally, I think it's both!

Yep absolute madness that it can be heated in 35C direct sunlight, almost scolding to touch and at same time not have any of the main temp sensors register high enough for a cut off, when doing HDMI 4K HQ 10bit. What next, can you go 20 mins of 8K with a hot CFexpress and camera fresh out the oven on a baking tray? Canon better have a good explanation in the draft stages by now. It will need to be about 20 pages long!

The only way it can possibly be really heat related is: 1. When 8K or 4K HQ are enabled (regardless of 10bit/8bit/compression type) the sensor fully sends it to the image processor and RAM, they all heat up in unison going full beans all at once, all 3 trying to melt one another, even in the menus, camera doesn't shut off the 8K feed in the menus, or in live-view, apart from maybe if you have Overheat Control turned on but I haven't really noticed that help much. 2. Maybe a margin is implemented in the thermal control system to take into account different speeds of card, some hotter than others, CFexpress temp is read by SMART, and added into the mix, once camera detects average temp on all 4 areas higher than a certain degrees (sensor, card, CPU, RAM), even if one of them crosses a boundary like the sensor as a result of the others running toasty, then maybe it will flash the overheat warning. 3. Maybe it tries to anticipate when this warning will occur by reducing maximum recording times in the limited modes, as you use the camera, whether this is artificial or accurate, I don't know. 4. I cannot in any way figure out the recovery times. Nothing about these make any sense. If the overheat trigger was caused by CFexpress card getting too hot, then removing that and putting a cold one in should reset the counter, right?

It does't add up does it! 1. CFexpress card throttling... Why would it even break into a sweat recording in 8bit 4K at low bitrates? Yet camera in 4K HQ 8bit quits long before the CFexpress card has had to fully utilise anything close to maximum write speeds. 2. Sensor overheating... I could appreciate this is sensitive to heat, it gets noisy if hot. But it doesn't cut off for external recording doing full pixel readout (8K) for 4K HQ so that's that theory gone and the Chinese thermometer tests show the surface area of the chip is not the main heat source in the camera. 3. DIGIC processor overheating. Well the EXIF temp correlates to camera activity in so much as I observed it go from 46C to 62C in 8K mode. If this temp reading is on a PCB far away from the image processor, it is indicative more of internal air temp and CPU could be 10-20C higher. I could understand if the CPU has a thermal run-away problem past 80C why it would stop. But why would it do so when you add 8bit 4K HQ H.264 to the mix? Pretty much any camera can do that unlimited. And we know the SD card and sensor are not the heat limited parts. So why would this compression tip it over the edge... And why does it need a 2 hour recovery time when it cools down to normal ambient temps pretty much instantly? 4. Menu overheating. Nothing about this makes any sense whatsoever. If the CPU has a fault and it cannot shut down all cores in the menus or something, maybe. I say unlikely. Surely the net processor usage downsampling 8K sensor data to 4K HQ for HDMI is higher than scrolling a list of text 5. Stills / Live-view = reduced runtimes even 0 mins of 8K. This is the other very artificial thing with no basis in physics. It just doesn't make sense that the CPU is happy to go all day in live view or 4K 10bit H.265 from a pixel binned sensor output, but combine this with the 8K sensor output and BOOM processor has had it in less than 15 mins. 6. Recovery times = too long. No basis in real thermal dynamics or temperatures. So it is all a big mystery and one I will be taking to the UK small claims court if Canon doesn't start cooperating or answering these questions.

Same limits with SD card puts a bullet through that theory Although I am sure CFexpress cards do get hotter and can thermally throttle all by themselves so it's another variable.

Are you looking at the EXIF temp data @mechanicalEYE during these hot sun shoots? Would be interesting to see what it says

No it doesn't at all. Just because you can freeze the temp sensor doesn't mean to say limitations are not artificial / cripple hammer territory. It could be tricked into pausing the timer below a certain temperature. But at normal operating temperatures NOT in a fridge, the cripple hammer runs as planned. Remember my test, read it again, and question why the camera reports 46C and can go for 15 mins 8K, and then reports 46C again and cannot do it again, even after waiting 30 minutes turned off. How is this based on real CPU temps?? Horshak does not have a camera.

If the 15 min 8K cripple clock is also based off temperature readings, it doesn't not make it artificial. Remember the EXIF temp at 46C results in two different maximum 8K run times depending on how long the live-view has been on for. In our tests it was 46C at the start of a 15 min clip and 62C at the end. And it has been observed back at 46C but suddenly camera refuses to roll a single frame. If you freeze the camera for 11 hours and trick it into going longer because a temperature sensor on the PCB takes longer to correlate with the internal temps being generated on the main CPU, not only is this dangerous and could brick the camera processor if it really is getting too hot, it doesn't prove that the timer and temp limits aren't at an artificially low cut off. But the recovery timer is still the most fake thing for me. As to see an inhibitor flagging just 5 mins of 8K after waiting over an hour and 30 mins is frankly bonkers and in no way can it be based on real physics.

He put it in the fridge for ELEVEN HOURS!! The CFexpress card doesn't make a difference for me. Sure they get much hotter than SD cards but I get the same run times in 8K to CFe as I do to SD card

Magic Lantern was able to read temps on previous Canon DSLRs. It gives us an idea of what's normal in stills mode for a digital camera. They also found the EFIC chip temperature correlates well with the temperatures in JPEG EXIF data, like we are able to see on EOS R5 https://sternenkarten.com/2016/04/24/temperaturanzeige-mit-magiclantern/ Internal camera temperature can mean a lot of things - sensor, processor, chassis air temps, or an average of a few different sensors. However generally I think it is giving a good impression of the internal temp around the main circuitboard. This is useful because we can measure the internal temp at the beginning of a cold start, before we hit record on 8K for 20 mins. Then when we turn the camera off, we can turn it back on again in 5 minutes and see if the temperature is back to what it was before the 20 mins. If it is back to what it was, then logically there is no reason why the camera cannot go again for another 20 min run in 8K. So the next test I am going to do is to put the camera in a fridge... Sample internal temp during over a period of 100 stills over about 30 mins, and if this ends up reducing 8K recording times at internal camera temps far below what the ambient room temperature was when we could record the first 20 min 8K in, then we know there is something fishy. Or... if after 1 hour an overheat warning is triggered in the fridge, with the camera just sat in the menus idle, then switched into 8K video mode, we know for certain the timer is an artificial limitation. The WIFI app is great for triggering the camera behind the fridge door 🙂 I am just making sure I don't f*** the camera.

One possible solution, will be to use a headless HDMI adapter and plug it into the HDMI port. These are basically a little plug that makes the camera think it has a HDMI recorder attached, then have a toggle in the @BTM_PixCDA TEK temp sensor monitor app that turns off the LCD image. It'll be interesting to see if this allows the camera to record internally for longer, but long term I see the only real fix being on Canon's side. It's up to them to step up to the table really.

Canon could have released a EOS R5 to compete against Sony A7R IV... for stills. It has the slightly soft 4K pixel binned mode like the Sony does, but in 10bit. That's not too shabby. Then, release an EOS R5 C, with all the video bells and whistles enabled and properly functional. For some strange reason they decided to go full beans with the 8K RAW and 4k 120p only to not let us use them! Marketing tick boxes only! Why bother engineering these features if they are not going to be usable by the intended customers? And how in any way would a mirrorless camera cannibalise sales of a $15,000 full frame C500?

Erm. How about they just give us what is advertised? And tell the truth.

The recording time charts don't take into account the time spent in live-view or menus. So at some point during the first 40 minutes of the day, you will be looking at a 5 min limit in 4HQ instead... and then 0 mins. Unless you work like this: Shoot a 30 min continuous shot. Power down camera for 2 hours. Come back and shoot another 30 mins. Power down for 2 hours. Nobody works like this.

Anyone spot the problem with the charts like this?

Absolutely. Nobody would care if it wasn't for the fact that an incredible camera has been kneecapped.