Bruno

If you say no one knows, then how can you accuse me of assuming wrong things? They've made clear it's the same sensor, it has the same specs, it quacks like the same sensor just a crop, maybe packaged a bit differently internally...

 

It's a different sensor, different source, it's not a crop of the BMCC sensor, it performs the same as the older one, these were their words not mine, I wouldn't know.

 

And they are "blatantly lying" about the 4K cam's shipping schedule. Unless you take the "especially" wink as getting them off the hook for mischaracterizing forward-looking statements. A public company trading in USA would face Sarbanes-Oxley action if stating that one of their most important products would ship in July when it's clearly going to be more like January 2014 or later.

 

What is it that seems so impossible to you about the 4k camera? It's not like it's a whole new product that's in any way harder to build. Do you realize the 4k camera is EXACTLY the same camera as last year's BMCC, with a different sensor and upgraded firmware? After the problems they had with the first sensor, and with people changing their orders to the MFT mount version, I'm sure they have plenty of EF bodies waiting, those are your 4k cameras, they've been waiting since last year, why is it so impossible to meet their deadline now that they have a new sensor to use on them?

 

 

As for 16mm lenses, this is one of those cases where "bad is good" as long as "bad" is at least 30 years old.

 

You've clearly used quality 16mm cine lenses before, my bad.

I similarly think BMD will have plenty of stock of the Pocket cam when it ships as it is just using a crop of the same old tiny low-res sensor of their first-ever camera

 

You keep assuming wrong things, according to them it's not the same sensor, it's a similar quality sensor, 16mm sized, which to me is an advantage. No one really know much about its real world performance, so there's no point discussing its strong and weak points at this time.

 

The days of huge batches of products and fitting distribution channels are kind of over. It's all about niches and customized products these days, and I'm sure they can ship 10 cameras or they can ship 10k as easily, there will be distribution companies sorting those details out and shipping them together with all kinds of other products.

 

I imagine that the pessimism is because they cannot even manage to ship the very first model BMCC that was supposed to ship over a year ago. This is still not available for purchase anywhere that I can find in the UK. You can order it but nowhere has stock.

 

Well, BMD knows that and has admitted that loads of times, and I would understand that when the products were announced, but when we're just a few weeks away and they're saying in public that everything's on track, then I'd rather believe they're not blatantly lying.

In turn you're assuming the dealers don't send money to BMD to get their preorder allocations. I would be surprised if that's not the case, if an item is "hot" whoever's got stock in the early days will cash in handily (including on acce$$ories). So a manufacturer would be pretty foolish to allow dealers to take preorder money on their merch and not take any themselves.

 

Anyway codecs do matter but not as much as getting the shot in the first place, and the RX100 actually being in a pocket and shooting in 2 seconds is going to get a lot of spontaneous shots that the BMD Pocket being tucked away in a case somewhere and possibly not having the right lens on etc. is going to miss. Run the RX100 footage through Neat Video and while you don't have "captivating cinema" quality you don't have chopped liver (cellphone video) either. If quality matters that much you're going to need to get something more substantial than a BMoireD anyway and the time and gear to set it up properly.

 

You speak like if the Pocket Camera was so much more expensive and so much bigger than an RX100. If you want to shoot quickly and are familiar with an equivalent zoom lenses, I don't see why it would take more time to start shooting on a Pocket camera than on an RX100, and as the name implies, you can have it in your pocket...

 

As for retail and pre-orders... the pre-order is between you and the reseller, it is not a commitment between you and BMD.

Each reseller is responsible with dealing with BMD, and obviously BMD will probably be supplying the biggest resellers first, so even if you were the first person on Earth to place a pre-order, if you did it with a smaller reseller and don't a get a camera when everyone else does, you have to deal with your reseller, not BMD.

 

Also, as with most products, BMD ship to resellers and only get paid when they actually sell them. This could be different with smaller resellers of course.

 

But seriously, if you're happy with the RX100, why do you care if they deliver on time or not? You're all set already! :)

I will be shocked if the 4K camera appears in quantity (>1000 units) this year. In fact I wonder if BMD is more desperate for preorder money than credibility at this point, steadfastly refusing to learn from last year's lessons.

 

As Andrew said, you're wrongfully assuming they see any money at all from the pre-orders.

 

Anyway the RX100 soundly defeats the BMD Pocket in:

• Stabilization (very useful for a camera that will nearly always be shot handheld by definition)
• True pocketability (again, whose pocket can fit any MFT cam with a lens on it? The RX100 slips into virtually anything worthy of being called a "pocket") and action mountability (between the MFT size/weight and the GoPro)
• Ready-to-shoot cost (you can add a cheap grip and a magfilter adapter to your $650 RX100, your total RTS price will be at least double when adding a comparably usable lens to a BMD)
• Moire and Aliasing (OK the RX100 does have a noisy blue channel, but that's more fixable than awful rainbow moire)
• Product Maturity (we have yet to see the ugly details on the Pocket cam in practice, but prior experience from BMD's first-ever camera wasn't promising)
• Stills quality (20MP quite DSLR-like RAW stills on the RX100, 10 times the resolution of the BMD, plus tiltable built-in flash)
• HFR Frame rate (50 or 60p depending on your region, very useful for action and stabilization too)
• Automation (real-time autofocus and autoexposure, very useful again for run-n-gun, and it also offers full manual mode)

 

I own an RX100, it's a neat little camera, great pocket stills camera, but compressed video at 28mbps is hardly any competition against raw or even prores. You can get MFT stabilized lenses for the Pocket Camera too, and I'd get to use my 16mm cine lenses on it, which I can't at all with the RX100.

 

Again, I really like the RX100 for what it is, but it is also a first model, and it definitely has lots of room for improvement, and a cinema camera it is not, also every time I turn it on, I keep expecting the lens to get stuck or some other failure that would leave me hanging, since it feels so fragile. Being able to stick a full manual lens on a camera when shooting video is a huge plus.

 

Weeks away from release date, if they were really that behind as people seem to want them to be, it would be really bad for them to say otherwise in public as they just did, if anything I'd assume they'd be overly cautious this time, and if they do their job right, they will have a massive winner in their pocket camera.

This is funny:

 

https://vimeo.com/68895788 0:50

 

"Uhhhh...I will believe, you may, uhhh, probably you, you will see them in July for sure. Okay? Especially the Pocket Cinema Camera."

 

:D

 

40 days and 40 nights won't be enough to get the 4K cam into the stores. Try six months or more. But the "Pocket" (whose pocket can fit that?) camera probably does show up in limited quantity and with limited functionality for the first year. I would much rather have a GH2/GH3 if I wanted to use MFT...much better sensors, much more mature product. Or the RX100 for true pocketability. Note that you don't get a free full version of Resolve with the Pocket Cam, which is all the original BMCC owners really have for their money at this point just a few months after finally receiving the product.

 

Not sure why the pessimism, it's good news that things are on track, even if it takes a couple weeks more to get cameras into stores, I don't see why it should take 6 months to ship anything in any part of the world to any other part of the world at this day and age.

 

Comparing the BMPCP to the RX100 is a bit silly, they both have roughly the same sensor size, but the BMD camera shoots raw and allows for interchangeable lenses, including quality 16mm cine lenses, which you can't use on any of the other BMCC, the RX100 or even the GH2/GH3. Being able to shoot both prores and raw makes a much more able video camera than any of the ones you mentioned, and th $995 price tag makes any downsides not that relevant really.

And about DVD's being the lifeblood of the industry.... studios survived before VHS or Beta.  Once home video / DVD became a revenue stream they clearly got greedier and greedier or just had worse management until they had placed themselves in a position where they were largely dependent on DVD for survival. 

 

Keep in mind that before home video Cinema didn't have much competition, there was no internet, TV couldn't even come close, etc.

Nowadays it's completely different, there's so much competition to film in general, the space in people's lives that film had to itself back then is now occupied by TV, facebook and internet in general, Video Games, and all sorts of internet video (series, shorts, features). Basically back then you either went to the theater or did nothing, nowadays there's plenty of competition, and not only that, you have ways to see the same films they're showing in the theater in other mediums, which you didn't back then.

 

Basically, it's not like they can just go back to how they worked before, but obviously, focusing only on super hero movies and huge blockbusters is not a solution either, but it seems like they'll have to realize that the hard way.

This looks like an MTV movie, and that's not good.

Not that we really need a Jobs movie, but in case we do, I'm glad there's more capable people working on another one as we speak.

I'm sure if Lynch wants to make a film, he can still make it much easier than most new filmmakers, and every year you get more than just a few new filmmakers come out with amazing indie features. Yes times they change, but so what? That's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe he doesn't like what Hollywood has become but still wants to work in the way Hollywood used to? That's not gonna happen. If he gets on with the times, I'm sure he'll be fine. He could probably get a new movie funded by kickstarter or netflix pretty easily, at least way easier than any of us.

Don't any of you follow Sonyalpharumors? Shieeeeet. Sony is pushing 4k harder than anybody, their DSLT roadmap was completely scrapped and the next releases will be early 2014 A-mount mirrorless cameras.

 

I don't doubt at all that these will be shooting 4K...

 

That is cool in a way, but at the same time, Sony have had quite a few, actually quite a lot of promising DSLRs, and they always managed to get it wrong somehow when it comes to video.

Actually i think I should have said: Grading before editing is the wrong way round.

 

Totally agree, grading is also about color and mood continuity, working in favor of the story, doing it before on a per shot basis kind of misses the point.

"It sounds like the team is still on schedule for the 4K camera. We definitely don't expect anything like the delays we had with the BMCC."

 

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6792

The 1DC produces 300 gigabytes per hour of 4k video using H.264. That is compressed. Uncompressed 10-bit 4k video is roughly 3x that, about 1 terabyte per hour. A typical shooting ratio might be 50:1, so for a 1-hr production you'd need 50 hr of raw material. That equates to 15 terabytes of 4k H.264 or 50 terabytes of 4k raw at 10 bits.

 

Yeah, but why do you have to use uncompressed raw?

Even the RED has a compression ratio that can go up to 10:1, and that's a high end camera.

Cheaper actors would help.

 

Cheaper actors would help keeping a lower budget, unfortunately it wouldn't help selling the films, big name actors are more of a guaranteed return than a risky investment, studios would rather pay them loads of money than not having them in the movies.

 

http://screenrant.com/robert-downey-jr-avengers-salary-50-million-niall-172173/

10% profit margin on $1 billion? Nuts. Maybe the solution is to make cheaper movies, and be more creative. 

 

Of course it is, they just don't know how to anymore, seriously.

Word out on the street is that WWZ cost $400 million after all the rewrites and reshoots, it's just insane.

Just walk into any big movie set and you'll be amazed at how much money they're wasting and how obvious it is.

 

A few years ago there was a blog post analyzing Avatar's box office numbers, apparently the studio only started making a profit when it reached $1.5 billion... that says it all.

Wouldn't be surprised if one of the next Canon models (or even existing ones) could be hacked to do 4k in the near future.

Actually the 5D3 probably already does it, the problem is getting all that data into the card.

All points of view are as valid as the other ones. I havent said one needs to build a computer by them selves.

 

I wasn't replying to you, but I'm sorry if I came across as rude, it's just that some people here ALWAYS bring up the same argument whenever a new computer model is being discussed, which is really annoying, we know we can build computers for ourselves, and obviously buying a bunch of parts will be cheaper than buying a quality design ready to use computer, but that's not what we're discussing here.

The tendency with most products is to have more and more niches and choices. With the recent makers' revolution, we find ourselves buying specific niche products directly from the makers more and more, instead of getting the mainstream generalized version from the big brands, it's all about customization and having your very specific needs solved.

 

Maybe we can see that with cinema too? Maybe we'll start seeing independent theaters making their own programmes instead of following the big studios' distribution schedule. Maybe the managers/curators of these theaters will start dealing directly with the independent filmmakers of the films they want to show. Maybe each film and director will be almost like a band that goes on tour, trying to find theaters that will screen their films and sell them to those specific theaters. There's always YouTube, Netflix, etc... for a wider distribution model, but these independent theaters would give you the cinema experience...

 

Whatever happens, I'm sure good cinema will eventually find a way into the cinemas, might happen in a totally unpredictable way, but it will live on.

Seriously, this is like reminding people they could cook for themselves at home and save a buck or two everytime someone suggests a new restaurant. It's retarded!

I could give you an endless list of things you could make or build for yourself and save loads of money in the process, but what's the point?

We all know we can build our own computers and save 10 cents in the process, it's just that most of us have better things to do, get over it.

Building computers is a great thing for sure... if you're into building computers!
But if you're into filmmaking or movie editing, then you should probably be making or editing films instead.

People are here discussing a product they'd like to use (or not), why do you have to come here with the same old talk "oh if you cook at home you can use only the ingredients you like and it's much cheaper". Go build a computer or something!

That's all great for people with time and an interest for it, but that's just a few of you. If I get a larger project that requires another computer (or more) I can just grab one at the Apple store, turn it on and log into my apple account, and all my apps are there, do you think a client would wait for me to order all the parts and then spend a few days assembling and troubleshooting a new machine, even if that was what I really wanted to spend my time doing?

If I have to spend a day assembling a machine then I'm not saving any money at all. No one's forcing a Mac on you, if you don't like it move along, nothing to see here, I'm sure there's plenty of forums where you can talk about building your own computer and how much you'll save.

I was hoping for a more evolutionary design though, basically an iMac on steroids. Something like this.

 

 

That looks like the OLD iMac, how is that evolutionary? :)

...Say that is 1200 GB of data writing that to a SSD one CF at time with not time spent to the actual pluggin in the cards with an estimate of 120MB/s write speed get's us 1200 / 0.12 = 10 000 / 60 = 166.6 minutes  .. now add CF swaps 30 seconds per swap = 6 minutes .. we are at 172 minutes for the offload process...

 

That's hardly the computer's fault, is it? Sounds more like a poor workflow to me :)

Why don't you buy a $200 Nexto hard drive or similar and off load each card as soon as you fill it up?

At the end of the day you'll have all your footage in one single faster hard drive, and I'm talking about a solution that is practical even for a lone shooter, because a small crew could have way more efficient workflows, so that by the time you finish shooting you're basically ready to start editing.

 

Computer hard drive speeds and expansions have little to do with that.

 

Had some time to waste so I looked it up: Quad Core 2.4 around 350$:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=W3565&LH_BIN=1&_osacat=164&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR4.TRC0.A0&_nkw=E5620&_sacat=164

Xeon 2.4 6 core : http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC1.A0&_nkw=E5645&_sacat=0&_from=R40 - 550$

 

Checked another cpu 6 core 3.33GHz. New one for 650$: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Xeon-UP-W3680-3-33-GHz-Processor-Socket-B-LGA-1366-BX80613W3680-/350697339131?pt=CPUs&hash=item51a730b8fb

then I checked cheapest Mac pro with this cpu: http://www.ebay.com/sch/Desktops-AllInOnes-/171957/i.html?_nkw=mac+pro+six+core&_frs=1

2300USD

 

Please enlighten me. I must be doing something wrong. Where is Mac pro with 6 core 3.33GHz for around 650$? I'm buying it!!

 

I'm not familiar with parts prices, but if you're looking at the present Mac Pros, their specs are not really top of the line, and the parts price has gone down a lot for sure. Try to see how much the CPUs cost for new one... (also, a computer is not just the CPU)

If you have to look or deal with something every day of your life, that being your partner in life or something you have to use for work, beauty has an immense value.

 

I didn't say otherwise, but beauty without function (or brains) will probably prove itself pointless over time.

It's fine for a decoration object, not for something you will actually use.

 

I don't like the probably very high price of this

 

Many people are commenting on the expensive aspect of it, is there an announced price yet? Apart from the new components, it looks like this system would be much cheaper to build than the current Mac Pro, it's mostly molded plastic after all... On the other hand it's being assembled in the USA...

 

For Apple as a company, since when they became a "mobile" company...

 

I think we became a mobile world, Apple is only catching up with the times :)

 

Lovely as it is, I doubt I'll ever have one.

 

"Ever" is such a long word... :)

The design is not that special. In a sense that similiar designs have been tought up by many designers.

 

Designing something is not just coming up with some cool empty concept artwork.

Design is form+function, and in this case the seamless work between art and engineering.

3D modelling or photoshopping a cool enclosure and calling that "computer design" is a bit of a stretch.

 

One other prospect about Apple that many ppl dont often discuss and the more or less dismiss it as a "let's not talk about that" is the use of chinese slave labour.  And sure what company does not.

 

That's an extremely important point, but a bit out of context here, since they've announced that the new Mac Pro will be assembled in the USA.

Apple just packages it very beautifully but that packaging comes with a price tag attached.

 

It's not a matter of being beautiful, it's excellent design, those are different things, beauty just for the sake of it is useless.

Look at the current Mac Pros, no matter how old they are, their design is still sublime, and the competition hasn't yet caught up in that regard. These new ones are an evolutionary step forward, an attempt to create a new kind of computer from the ground up, which most other makers are not capable of doing, sticking to the old conventions instead.

This looks really awesome, minus the AMD part. I can't live without Premiere, and AE! I'll bet we see 4K panels from them in the next year as well.

 

I'm sure the Adobe apps will be supporting it in no time. Also, rumors say both the next 27" iMac and standalone display will support 5k resolution.

 

 

The design is interesting, but I don't think this is what the high-end (ie 'pro') market was looking for.

 

Was the high end market not looking for evolution? Well they should! :)

With 6 Thunderbolt ports, there's plenty of upgrade possibilities, including CPU, though it might take a while for 3rd party products to catch up.

Anyway Andrew the reason you were denied an MFT camera is you are too honest for BMD's sneaky marketing machinations. You'd out and say the thing sucks, as you have done several times with countless other cameras, and that's the main reason I respect you.