Mokara

20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

In Apple's attempt to overturn RED's claims over visually lossless compressed raw video, the US Patent Office has published documents submitted by RED. These explain their side of the story with particular regard to REDCODE.

If RED can continue to prove that the approach to their codec was novel, RED will win and Apple will have to compensate RED or make a deal in order to sell ProRes RAW in our devices and cameras, such as the Nikon Z6.

Read the full article

Two points to note:

1) Simply producing a device that does something first does not necessarily make it novel. It doesn't matter if no one else had such a camera at the time, as long as the idea was bandied about that in itself would be sufficient to destroy novelty. Likewise if people had done similar things and it was obvious that those similar things could be combined.

2) They talk about preprocessing as a component in their workflow. Presumably with no preprocessing their claims would not cover the general concept. And even with processing, they should only be getting claims where they use a specific method of preprocessing.

If the patent office is doing their job properly, IMO the broad claims should be disallowed.

1 hour ago, majoraxis said:

Hypothetically speaking, assuming Apple wins and some of Red's patents are no longer valid: will Atomos products become cheaper to purchase?  Does Nikon finally roll out Pro Rez RAW recording HDMI implementation?  Does Blackmagic add/turn on Cinema DNG as a recording option?  Do camera manufactures implement RAW recording without concern? Etc...

What are the upsides of Red losing for the pro / semi pro video camera user/purchaser and why should a potential cinema camera owner care (practically speaking, moral out rage aside...)?

What are the downsides of Red losing?

Short answer: No. 

37 minutes ago, Raafi Rivero said:

Apple is no stranger to overly broad patents either. Steve Jobs himself is credited as one of the authors for the patent of “swipe to unlock” on the original iPhone. 

Everyone does it if they can remotely get away with it, for the simple reason that it discourages competition, especially from upstart new players in the industry.

1 minute ago, Ed_David said:

 

*CUE INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC*

We live in an imperfect world.  We're all humans.  Mistakes happen.  Maybe Patent office was starstruck like Andrew said.  It's PETER FRIGGIN JACKSON!  THE LORD OF THE RINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOOOOOOO!

That's why we have the law to try to fix things up.  And always, always, change comes from the bottom up.

It's every day people like Bruce from Jinnimag who change the world.  Not politicians.  Not billionares.  Whistleblowers.  People who stick their necks out.  The little guys.  And they do this maybe out of pride, or revenge, or god knows what, but they do it.  And with a silly video series on youtube with mario coin sound FX.  

He is a director. I doubt he knows anything about the technology involved. 

1 minute ago, KnightsFan said:

I guess I was asking specifically if you knew in this instance whether the patent was specific to the redcode format. From the jinnitech video, where he showed all(?) the patent parameters, it was much more generic.

From my perspective it looked pretty vague when I looked at the patent in question. Some of their more specific claims might be valid but I don't see how one could argue that the general ones would pass the obviousness test.

5 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

Are you sure? Because it seems to be the case that other companies are foregoing all forms of compressed raw out of fear of patents, not the specific redcode method.

Most of those companies are small and cannot afford to get into a protracted legal battle. It is cheaper for them to just license or otherwise avoid the IP. This happens all the time in the tech world. In fact, companies will just file random patents covering all sorts of things in their general field of interest they have no intention of developing since their mere existence is usually enough to persuade other companies to do something else. Basically laying down minefields. This is one of the flaws of the patent system. While it fine for protecting the investment of genuine inventions, it is also used extensively as a weapon to inhibit otherwise legitimate competition.

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd be interested to see what Peter Jackson thinks of my legal takedown by Jim.

Starstruck?!

Did they impose a NDA on you regarding the settlement?

3 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

From my anonymous tipster:

Using Peter Jackson and Steven Soderbergh to testify for the patent amendment. 

WHAT IS THE HOOEY IS GOING ON?

 

That is ridiculous. Basically what he is saying is that equipment to do compressed raw over 2k was not practical at the time. It is obvious that it could be done however, and would be once technology had advanced to the point where it could handle the bandwidth involved. How on earth did this get past the PTO?

1 minute ago, Video Hummus said:

I don’t know details but my guess is RED was getting greedy with license fees. Apple has a lot of cash this would be scary for RED. 

What should be more scary for RED is going into a courtroom where everyone knows Apple and uses their products, but have never heard of RED.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

What I want to understand is:

NAB unveil in 2006 - did RED mention compressed RAW here, or at IBC later same year? Did Jannard mention the specs in interviews in 2005/2006? Did RED take sales based on a camera with this capability?

First non-provisional REDCode & camera system patent application was in 2008.

So what JT is saying is that if a company exhibits their work or sells it 1 year before patenting then it's prior art, admittedly their own prior art, but public domain as far as the patent office is concerned...

Their claim is for the method used, not the concept in general. As long as they did not offer explanation on how the method worked prior to filing they are still ok. Just saying that you are going to do something is not prior art, since at that point the method itself is a trade secret, and it is the method that is the subject of the patent.

Showing the method to individuals/companies under a NDA is not public disclosure either.

If they were demoing their stuff in public where people not covered by NDAs could examine and use it, then that would be public disclosure.

On 8/14/2019 at 12:44 PM, Andrew Reid said:

It is widely known in the camera industry that RED owns a key patent for a cinema cameras featuring compressed RAW.

It is also alleged the technology has featured in a number of past legal claims RED have had over rival camera companies.

Now third party accessory manufacturer Jinni Tech alleges RED "deceived the US patent office" and filed the critical patent late.

Read the full article

Personally I would have thought that their broader claims would have failed in court if challenged due to issues with the obviousness requirement for patents. Claims being obvious to one skilled in the art is the most common objection made by the patent office. There are ways around that though, you can file a statement to the contrary and that would usually overcome the objection (as long as you are not too egregious about it), but it significantly weakens the patent if challenged later in court. Normally you would want to convince the examiner that they are wrong without resorting to that for that reason. Almost every patent issued would have been subject to these objections in some form btw, they are extremely common when you make a filing. I would be very surprised if the raw compression claim did not receive an obviousness objection when it was filed. It seems like a pretty obvious thing to me and the fact that you require more than a certain percentage of compression suggests that other people have been doing similar things previously, just not with that level of compression. 

An application made under circumstances that the PTO regards as intent to deceive can result in a patent being ruled invalid. That includes non-disclosure of relevant information, since you have a duty to inform the PTO of any information that you are aware of that might have a bearing on the patentability of your claim. 

As far as people who might have licensed this IP, they are out of luck, they won't get their money back if the patent is ruled invalid for some reason.

On 8/9/2019 at 10:52 PM, wolf33d said:

With great surprises already in and more to come I would say this is a good year gear wise. 
Nokishita (reliable rumor) confirmed the EOS90D and M6 are coming this month. According to Canon Rumors they will feature 4K60p and FHD 180p and DPAF, which sounds surprising (wait for that 3x crop...). If not in those at least one camera from canon should feature it soon.
It seems confirmed that 2 new E-mount cameras will come on August 28th, including the A6500 replacement with finally 4K60 from Sony. 
The A7SIII as well as a pro body (EOS R X ?) from Canon are due this year as well. 

It will be the year of 4K60p which we will finally see on bodies with IBIS (unlike XT3) and good AF (unlike S1) so that’s great.
This and the massive amount of proper video cameras released this year (E2, Pocket 6K, Red Komodo,...) and it seems that everybody will have a good shoe to their foot. 

2020 is therefore the year I stop complaining about gear on EOSHD, after 3 years of asking 4K60 - good AF - IBIS in an APSC/FF affordable mirrorless camera. 
Or not

If they are using the Digic 8 then the video capabilities are probably not going to exceed the EOS-R. Unless magic is a thing now

11 hours ago, The ghost of squig said:

The big advance in 2019 is Japanese manufacturers adopting raw video in one form or another (it only took them 10 years). There's talk of Sony working on a new codec which one would assume is some incarnation of raw developed for the A7S III.

I'm hanging to see the final specs on the Sigma FP; Sigma has added APS-C lenses to the lens graphic on the FP product page, whether it's an APS-C crop or an option remains to be seen, as does the cDNG spec: compression ratios? Rolling shutter? Sigma makes some great lenses and is one of the few manufacturers that still builds AF lenses with actual manual control over the manual focus mechanism ?.

Canon: ? You can forget about Canon doing anything but rolling out the same tired old shit; Canon will be the last company to adopt raw video for its consumer line and it will do it kicking and screaming.

The Pocket 4K is pretty good, but a Sony, Nikon, Fujifilm, or a Sigma with raw, IBIS, 14 stops, and DPAF like AF will be dreamy.

A new codec from Sony would imply a new processor as well, since the processor does that in hardware. A new processor will also likely bring an increase in other specs, such as frame rate, resolution and bit depth along with the codec.

20 hours ago, kaylee said:

OMG!!!

i am!!!!

its pure comedy, this film, candid and "smartphone video"-like, THAT BEING SAID,

how should i set up this iPhone XR™®© smartphone to shoot this? it has, like, a sicc ass camera right? has, 10-11 lenses id imagine? (lol jk guys)

what should i use as far as settings/apps/etc?

help mee out yalll about to start shooting as soon as TOMORRW OMGZz

Do you need a swat team to come and rescue you?

8 hours ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

Indeed, that's true. That's why aliens prefere the green Sony skin tones.

Right. Except that in blind tests photographers overwhelmingly chose the Sony colors. Canon came last.

This was brought to my attention on another website. What do you guys think about this guy's opinion?

7 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The burst rate and AF on the S1H will be worse them the S1, so for a still camera the S1 is lacking a lot and last in it's class. No one is buying the S1H for photography.

Yes it is brilliant.  BM just toasted the m4/3 sensor and nailed the first nail. I love what they did with the P6K.  Glad I didn't buy the P4K.

BM just beat the A7SIII before it even came out. WOW! 

That is not the point. The S1 is a hybrid with a video emphasis. Of course it will be beaten by other hybrid cameras that have a stills focus if you are shooting stills, but it is never the less a hybrid that is very capable as a stills camera, unlike the BM products.

If you need a hybrid camera in your workflow you will not buy the BM camera unless you were hit hard on the head as a child.

4 minutes ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Its also a stills camera that shoots dng stills, just don't expect the autofocus to be great.

The S1H will kick the snot out of this thing as a stills camera.

2 minutes ago, New_E said:

Undercutting Panasonic and their S1H, although not necessarily a bad thing as competition may drive the S1H price down...

Unlikely that most S1H buyers would take this instead. The S1H is a hybrid, the BM camera is not.

1 hour ago, JordanWright said:

B&H saying they expect avaliability August 12th 

Which year?

13 hours ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

Put it on youtube and monetise it with ads?

This video has 28 million views for example.

 

 

 

So, find some puppies, put them in some dire life threatening situation, then "rescue" them?

23 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

Samsung 850 and 860 Pro are the way to go, they work in all Atomos.

The 860 Evo still works fine. Just make sure you use the 1TB version or higher (sustained write speeds drop off in the smaller capacity drives relative to the pro versions, but are the same for 1TB and higher capacities).

https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Samsung-860-Pro-1TB-vs-Samsung-860-Evo-1TB/m434505vsm423831

I am using a 860 Evo, it works fine.

So, Sony generates a overheating warning at a lower temperature? You can disable that warning you know, and that allows you to shoot for much longer.

21 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

All the modern Sony models have a quad-core ARM Cortex-A5 plus custom Sony ISP inside of them. They farm their printing to Global Foundry (among others) which are leading the pack with 7nm node production. It's not like they are doubling the resolution of cameras every year. I am sure they can design custom ISPs that are over built and can process 8K+ video streams with low latency and low TDP thermals.

Phones can manage to do it, plus a lot more. Why not the camera manufacturers?

Cell phones use variable frame rates to do it, as well as other compromises. That would not be acceptable on a proper camera. Comparing them is apples to potatoes. Cellphone processor development, especially the ISP portion, is funded by the sales volume those items have. Proper cameras have nowhere close to the same sales volume, so it is far more onerous to make the sort of investment necessary for constant improvement.

Sure, you could make a camera that had a cellphone processor in it, but it would shoot cell phone video, and I am pretty sure that almost everyone here would be screaming outrage if a camera did that.

22 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You are 100% wrong. "have likely led to delays" is a sly way of making people read your opinion as fact.

Nikon and Panasonic have pushed video capabilities on the Z6 and S1 way above what Sony has given us.  Body size for the Sony has to change because of past heat issues.  If Nikon and Panasonic can give us new better cameras then no excuses for Sony.  

Sony making processors years and years before they hit the streets is what big companies like Sony do. Sony's cine line up would also benefit from smaller faster processors. Panasonic said the S1 had been in development for years and the idea and move toward full frame was like 6 years ago. 

No one really knows what Sony delayed the A7SIII but at least to the public it's delayed or long over due.  I'm even very curious about what the A7SIII will be and how far they will push it.

If what you say was true then the A7SIII might be 4 months away or 2 years away from hitting the streets. That's not how it works. 

Sony know how to make great cine cameras and processors, they just have to decide what to please and how to make it in a smaller form factor. 

How long before the P4K was released did the first announcement happen? 

The delay is due to the need for higher specs, such as 4K60p, and the inability of the current Bionz X to deliver that in a hybrid body. They needed to wait because the existence of Panasonic's latest cameras with their 4K60p specs meant that the a7SIII would not be competitive if it did not have that spec, since it's selling point is that it is a video centric camera. They have to have specs that at a minimum match Panasonic or the camera will be a commercial failure.

Not rocket science dude.

You don't need other people, if you have something to offer then just do it. Otherwise you don't really have anything to offer.

16 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Black Mirror has several such episodes. 

Most of the younger people I meet in sets are seriously underperforming while overperforming in social media (taking selfies with the actors, loose focus all the time and checking their phones constantly). I am not even on social media, and they had super amazing photos holding long boom poles and whatnot, but they couldn't boom to save their lives..

When I started 20 years ago, we were shooting 3 camera setups with NO cut in soap operas. Now we shoot 2 cameras and we cut, and still they can not do it!

I am trying the last few years to find a boom op that I can keep, I am trying to educate them with all my experience and knowledge (that didn't happen in the older generation), and still they underperform so bad, that they jeopardize my job. Now, I am trying to find someone in my generation, or a generation older than me, and I am talking with even 55-60 years old boom ops!

It is what it is. When they will be 40-45 years old, none of our opinion will matter because they will live in their own world. Older generations f@$€ed up big time anyway, that is why I have a small hope that this time it can get better, except the climate, and the A.I, and the Ebola, and the overpopulation, and the nuclear disasters..kind of scary, and I have kids of my own..but I still have some hope in humanity, maybe because of those said kids.

Meet new young people then. Most I know are much more capable and mature than the ones I knew growing up. They get exposed to the greater world sooner these days and it does make a difference.

On 7/28/2019 at 7:59 PM, webrunner5 said:

Most people on here act like everyone in the world is like us. I bet "we" don't represent 0.5% of the people buying all this stuff from Canon, Sony, on and on. And I would bet in the last 5 years 50% of the Rest of the people have switched to Smartphones. And more and more will do so since these newer ones have multiple cameras in them. That was half the reason people didn't want to ditch the cheap DSLR was some kind of Tele lens. Now that stuff is here in Phones.

I have no clue how any of these company's down the road are going to sell their wares as they say. That is not counting the pressure say the Osmo Pocket, Osmo Action, GoPro has put on "real" cameras as of late. They are doomed I think. Then there is the PK4 for peanuts. Talk about pressure. If you pay 5995 for a new Canon 1DX mk III you are getting Really Screwed. I doubt it cost 6 times as much money to make a 1DX. They have used the same basic body for like 10 years. 30 Years if you go back to the EOS-1N RS film era.

Those companies don't need to market to everyone though, they only need to market to the people who have use for such things. Bruker for example does just fine, it is an 8 billion dollar company, but the equipment they make will not be used by 99.999% of the worlds population.

On 7/29/2019 at 7:06 AM, Kisaha said:

Bring it on! 15 hours work per week is my dream!

Humans are not supposed to work 10-12 hours per day (+ an hour or two go and come back). 

Here, all the TV jobs are 10-12 hours, and in some productions it is even more. Most (almost all) of them do not even pay overtime.

Everyone points out the negatives, but constructing machines to do the repetitive shitty jobs is a huge opportunity for the networked humanity to achieve great things (like explore other systems and colonize space e.t.c).

Do we really need people working at McDonalds and Walmart? Is this what Aristotle, DaVinci, Nietzsche, Sagan dreamed of humanity?

I say, bring in the robots, until they revolt, and kill all of us, of course...

Actually, they have evolved to work from sunrise to sunset, lol. In neolithic times life was a constant struggle to find enough food to survive. It is only in the last hundred years or so that people got a lot of free time. Before that free time was a luxury.

12 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Nikon introduced a new processor with the Z6 and Panasonic with the S1.

You don't think Sony can create and release a new processor since 2014? That's 5 1/2 years. In camera time that an incredible amount of time. 

Sony has it's cine line to learn from and I'm not buying what your selling. Sony has the resources to produce a new processor since 2014 and they knew the day would come. The S1, Z6 have pushed video quality and specs beyond what Sony currently offers. By the time Sony does update the processor and specs the S2 and next Z video geared cameras will be released. 

It's not as hard as you described to create and release new processors. In fact I would say Sony already has built the next two processors they would use but are reluctant to change body size and style. 

It's simple: Sony had a road map that kept the current A7III style body and hardware on the market thru 2020-21 and that's why they got caught sleeping.  Sony also said they didn't want to make the A7 line up into a bigger body style when they had overheating issues. They basically said this is mirrorless and not DSLR. 

Sony have a lot of processors like that as well, the only difference is that they keep the same name for them while Canon and Nikon add numbers for each new variant. The Digic 7 and 8 are not all that different, the main difference between them and earlier Digic processors was the inclusion of 4K capability in the ISP (which would have required a redesign, likely by whoever their vendor is). 4K was not included in the cameras with Digic 7 because the ISP ran too hot without active cooling, so 4K was limited the Digic DV5 (the video camera version of Digic 7). Digic 8 had a restricted version of the ISP to manage the heat output, that allowed it to be used in stills cameras. Btw, this is why the C200 has RAW and a consumer codec (it uses the Digic DV6 processor, which is the video analog of Digic 8 , rather the pro codec used in the earlier DV5 cameras.

All of these processors are systems on a chip. Usually they have one or more ARM cores as the actual processor, with one or more image signal processors to handle what is coming off the sensor. Sony have a lot of variants of Bionz X, all with a quad core ARM Cortex A5 together with one or more CXD4236-1GG image signal processors, together with some other logic. They don't give the variants different names like Canon does, but Canon does the same thing. So you will see most Sony cameras since about 2014 using Bionz X processors, but these processors are not all the same. The CXD4236-1GG is Sony's third ISP, and they are due for another one since it is old and showing that age. My guess is that this will happen with the a9II and/or a7SIII. Delays in getting the new ISP ready have likely led to delays in these cameras as well, since Sony wants their flagships to have competitive video included, especially the a7SIII. Body size and shape has nothing to do with it. Nor does "deliberate crippling" and "holding back". The tech they have available at the moment simply can't do what you want.

Developing an ISP from scratch takes a lot of time and resources, which is why most camera companies license the designs from third parties and include them in their processor. For a limited product market like the one Sony has for cameras, this can't be done all that often, not without drastically increasing the price of their cameras. Canon don't do it, Nikon don't do and Sony does not do it. The only companies that have the resources and manpower to do this on routine basis are the ones that produce cell phone processors, such as Qualcomm and Samsung (which is why it really sucked for us when Samsung left the camera business). That is where you will see the cutting edge video performance, but those processors are designed to support cell phones, not conventional cameras.

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Phones, especially Apple phones get updates hell nearly every 2 weeks. You don't think they don't improve things, add new features with the updates? Only "real"cameras cameras do? And I think camera manufacturers Had better bring out new models every year now or they are toast. Stuff changes big time now in a year.

That is because modern cameras and cellphones are computers. Cellphones can get technology updates rapidly because they have the volume to fund that development. Cameras on the other hand do not. So you will always see cameras lagging behind cellphones when it comes to computational capability. But eventually it trickles down, and then the inherent superiority of proper cameras means that they produce better images. This is not likely to change. It is just that electronic cutting edge in cameras will be one step behind cellphones.