good_1da

Cliff notes on the thread:

Hot mess
Inside a dumpster fire
Inside a train wreck

29 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Europe you are part of it too will be weaker after that, Imperial times are over in today's globalized world.

Two completely different things...

EU is a political project which we have withdrawn from. Europe is a continent in the northern hemisphere which the UK is still very much a part of.

Britain will continue to trade and cooperate with other countries including those in the EU. Nobody is banging on about imperialism and empire, except ardent remainers who use it as a tactic of negative framing.

I will try to make this my last post.

The Leave side of the argument was concerned with the bigger picture. The EU was on a path to ever closer union. The crises in the Eurozone had expedited this process. The EU was now encouraging the Eurozone to integrate further - as most member states accepted that it must.

And the EU does not recognise itself as a union with multiple currencies. Britain was no longer at the inner core and was moving at a different speed and to a different destination to other members. The UK was becoming an increasingly marginal and peripheral player. As demonstrated by David Cameron's failed attempts to get substantive treaty changes back in 2016. And also demonstrated that change from within was unlikely.

Given this reality, Leavers came to the conclusion that a withdrawal from the EU was necessary. With the EU no longer having a say in UK Law-making and a return to a bilateral relationship.

As I say, a Remainer saying, "I have a strong attachment to the EU, and I believe in the European project" is not wrong, its just a different perspective. And not one I personally share.

I will make this my last post also.

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Then the response.... “we want our country back”. Back from what? Why can’t they tell us, factually, what they want back? I just want a simple, everyday explanation of getting “back” these incredible benefits. Anyone? No? 

Why is the idea of UK laws being made in the UK so strange to you?

We have our own Parliaments and Assemblies for the purpose of law-making, why do we need another layer of bureaucracy?

Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, etc, do perfectly fine, they don't have other countries playing a role in their law-making yet they still have trade agreements and cooperate with other countries.

In the words of writer Dominic Sandbrook (who voted remain)...

"As for my fellow Remainers - well, where do you start? Snobbish, sneering, risibly prey to conspiracy theories, many ardent Remainers made complete fools of themselves. They didn’t try to understand their fellow Britons, and refused to accept defeat with good grace. And if they had succeeded in subverting the referendum, as they hoped, they would have dealt our democracy a very heavy blow."

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

The bottom line is that if someone voted to leave in 2016 and then voted Conservative in 2019 to "get Brexit done" then that person now better hope and pray that their domestic policy requirements align precisely with those of the Conservative party.

I realize there is plenty of scorn and derision around.

The reason I am more optimistic than some, is the opportunity English devolution represents for an area like the North-East. The region now has directly elected Mayors with devolved powers and a budget for Transport, Infrastructure, Skills and Jobs. This has helped to address the demographic deficit that was long felt in the North after Scottish devolution in the 90s.

My area elected a Mayor who campaigned to buy back the local airport which was about to be lost for housing

We now have an investment plan for the area...

• Buy back the local airport.....completed (now 75% owned by the combined authority)
• Upgrade of airport............on going
• Modernise the railway station to include first link to London in decades.......on going
• The compulsory purchase of the defunct steel works site from Thai banks........completed
• Investment to clean up the site after 100+ years of steel making.......on going
• Investment in transport infrastructure around the site.......on going
• A Freeport........to be decided.

The result will be a very large plot of land for new businesses and new jobs in green energy, renewables, offshore wind-farm production, etc.  As well as upgrades to key transport links. 

I think this approach represents a better way forward. To move away from centralised Westminster decision making and the two party system that form of governance has tended to favour.

On 1/13/2021 at 8:29 AM, Tim Sewell said:

(And the answer is to vote Tory?!) That's the thing that would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. The anti-elitists' answer to their woes was to elect a 'billionaire' to the US Presidency (who filled his cabinet with other billionaires...

I often hear people making this kind of linkage...that somehow Brexit and Trump is all part of some shared ideology...it is a complete falsehood.

Opinion poll after opinion poll has shown the vast majority of leavers do not have the time for an anti-democrat like Donald Trump and would never have voted for him had they had the chance.

A recent poll taken during the Biden-Trump election showed not a single UK constituency would vote for Donald Trump. Trump is seen by the vast majority of the British public for what he is, a crazy guy completely unfit for high office.

https://www.politico.eu/article/not-a-single-uk-constituency-would-vote-for-donald-trump-poll/

3 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

Yes. Exactly as EU legislation has to be debated and passed by directly elected MEPs. The Commission can't just dictate legislation and see it passed into law. The overall direction is set by the Council (made up of elected national ministers), the Commission basically works out how to achieve what it's asked for and the resulting proposed legislation is debated and passed (or not) by the parliament. If the legislation requires treaty changes then it has to also be approved by national parliaments, which makes the whole thing somewhat more democratic than what goes on in Westminster. In other cases, legislation proposed independently by the Commission has to be approved by the Council as well as the Parliament.

By the way, you've made quite a lot of very definitive statements judging the democratic nature or otherwise of EU structures, I'm surprised that rather than categorically knowing how the UK's structures (that you posit are superior) you are having to fall back on 'presuming'.

I used the word 'presume' rather than another because I was just trying to soften the language and dial down the rhetoric a bit.

I didn't want everyone getting annoyed at each other. I appreciate your considered responses to the thread.

3 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

The UK Civil Service - analogous to the Commission - has the ability to propose legislation and there is no way to vote them out.

This demonstrates the problem - right from the outset - of Brexit discourse. Most of it is rooted in ignorance of how the EU actually works.

I presume the proposed legislation would still have to be debated and passed through the UK parliament. So, our directly elected MPs would still have political authority to scrutinise and amend the legislation.

But I do think the civil service and its powers to prepare legislation should receive more coverage on TV and in the press. Their role is far more important than is generally assumed.

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Unfortunately, a lot of the more intelligent arguments for leaving seem to be quilted with hardcore patriotism - some type of false ideology built on an imaginary pedestal that died decades ago. 

An example of the negative framing and caricature of leavers I was talking about.

An example of the long-standing class condescension of the liberal intelligentsia I was talking about. 

Perhaps this is why nobody make films or documentaries about the working classes any more. A tradition Britain once had a pound history of. The working classes have now been airbrushed out of existence by elites who prefer to fixate on identity politics instead.

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Still wondering what specific advantages are in it for you?

The UK rejected a form of governance I profoundly dislike. That is the fundamental benefit for me. I just believe that government at all levels should be as directly elected as possible. Maintaining the important connection between the people and those who represent them. And, that we must have a chance to unelect our representatives when they don't meet our expectations.

IMHO the EU does not meet these criteria. Most obvious example, the EU Commission President and the Commissioners are not directly elected even though they have powers to propose legislation that can be binding in every country.  And, there is no direct way to vote them out.

In the UK, we already have many types of democratic and directly elected government...

1. UK Parliament (House of Commons, House of Lords)
2. Scottish Parliament
3. National Assembly for Wales
4. Northern Ireland Assembly 
5. Combined Authority Majors/Metro Majors
6. Executive Mayors 
7. Councillors on Local Councils
8. Police and Crime Commissioners 

That is a hell of a lot of layers. With endless debating and investigative work of committees to scrutinise decisions. It’s not perfect, but it is about as transparent and representative as it gets. IMO it is quite enough government for any nation. 

I am not trying to convince Andrew or anyone else of the merits of Leaving the EU or the strategic reasons why people voted Tory in 2019. I am simply pointing out that the negative framing of leavers (e.g led by crooks, or racists harking back to empire) is typical of a long-standing class condescension by the liberal intelligentsia. 

It is also a convenient way for these liberal elites to avoid addressing real world challenges and the role their interests play in them. e.g UK population growth (expected to reach 71+ million by 2030). 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

It's precisely what the Tories have created. Their so-called best and brightest Eton boys club with Gove, Cummings, Raab, etc.

For me it has to be an informed democracy.

And by the way, why throw musicians under the bus?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html?fbclid=IwAR2juJLqLFBwJWAGMZaAj7JMRv96H2OfM5gZi_hlRrVvUWEQ85qpVm44KnQ

They are owed an explanation.

Behind closed doors all sorts of things have been decided on our behalf. The devil is in the detail. It's not democratic. How many times was it mentioned in the lead up to the referendum that things like these would be part of the rules afterwards. The time to vote in an informed way would be round about now.

You have to have an informed democracy, people have to know what they are voting for or against. Simple as that really mate!

Regarding the visa situation, I agree with you 100%.

My understanding is the EU-UK trade agreement that was signed is a fairly slim document. And the fine detail is pretty sparse. I am sure the detail will be revisited many times by our current and future UK governments in partnership with the EU. And, many of the unintended consequences, anolomlies and absurdities that emerge will be fixed. 

As for our current government, I don't share your pessimistic view that we are on the road totalitarianism. The current Conservative government are kept in check by the fact that they know their majority was leant. This is unique position. If they cannot deliver the levelling up agenda (and by that I mean more investment directed into improverished areas) then they will lose those seats the next time round.

17 hours ago, Chxfgb said:

I 100% disagree and think you are being harsh and disrespectful.  People were terribly informed about the pros and cons of Brexit. The average person can't be expected to learn all of this. It should be elected people with excellent minds who make the right decisions for us. The public is too easily manipulated by the media. Even my Mum won't take my word over the news and governments.  She has been indoctrinated and 2020 was a big eye opener for how things work in the UK and US and how broken the systems are.

You propose a star chamber of 'excellent minds' to make the right decisions on our behalf.  To me this such a scary concept. It's the road totalitarianism.

At what pont will the 'excellent minds' decide regular people can't be trusted with any decisions?

Who would decide what an 'excellent mind' was or is? Who would watch over these superiour beings with their 'excellent minds?' 

What a chilling, Orwellian, nightmarish, dystopian world that would be.

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You are pinning the blame for capitalism on the wrong people...

The EU is a capitilist club. it does not exist separate from capitilism.  It was originally created in the cold war to revive the pre-war industrial monopolies of France, Germany, and Belgium. And, in that way it continues to be a success. Neoliberalism is hardwired into it. It now has deep intergration with American captilism. You are falling for the con trick, the pretense that the EU is somehow progressive. And, all those MEPs in the European Parliament have no power to affect even minimal changes in the make up and functioning of the EU. 

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Again, wrong target. Steel plants closed in the UK due to China. Completely uncompetitive business vs China and other countries...

The SSI plant was not a dying plant as you say. It had just had 2 billion investment from Thai banks. It was profitable again. Then China dumped a load of steel to take out its competitors which hammered world steel prices. The SSI plant wanted to temporarily close, but keep the furnace running until prices stabilised. Once the furnace is out it would be over. Temporary nationalisation. A few million pounds to save an important strategic UK industry. EU state aid rules wouldn't allow it. 

Anyway, I remain optimistic for the future. Despite the spanner thrown by the pandemic. I hope the UK will now drive to be more self sufficient in goods and clean energy, and support local suppliers. Endlessly long supply chains are an environmental disaster. Hopefully our desperate attempts to obtain PPE and ventilators have taught us a lesson. And, I believe in 10 years time leaving the EU will be seen in a similar way to not joining the single currency. That, on balance, we made the right decision. 

On 1/7/2021 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Tony Blair did a decent job of running all of the country not just London, and Manchester was booming, pretty much.

I can't agree with this point. Sure, for investors in Build-to-Let tower blocks in London or Manchester its been a profitable few decades. Indeed Tony Blair and his family have done very well acquiring Buy-to-Lets in Greater Manchester. But the majority of the country booming during the Blair-Brown era, really??? It ended with a massive financial crisis.

The fact is, many UK towns have been on there knees for decades...high poverty rates, low life expectancy...cultural wastelands.  Watch 'I, Daniel Blake' or a documentary series like 'The Mighty Redcar' to get a truer picture of the Britain that many experience on a daily basis. The closure of the giant SSI Steel plant effected many I know. 3000+ jobs lost because EU state aid rules prevented it from being saved. IMHO EU-city-centric thinking was never going to address the problems and a reboot was necessary.

I'm guessing you wanted the status quo. But was that really an option? The EU is ever changing. Integration, fiscal and political 
ever deepening. EU politicians like Guy Verhofstadt have written essays about total political integration being the final destination. Eventually local parliaments become museums, nation flags packed away, our diverse languages, cultures and traditions homogenised. The very things that make Europe special gone forever.

That's the advantage to me of leaving the EU. To avoid the ghost of Christmas future. Bring democracy home. All future decisions taken by the people we elect. Democracy directly accountable and as local as possible. Note, all the Conservative MPs elected in NE in 2019 were local born people. The NE grew tired of Labour parachuting lawyers into safe Labour seats. For me, leaving the EU was just the start in pursuing a fairer less London-city-centric country.

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The first corona vaccine is German by the way.

And, the cheapest and probably most useful to the rest of the World is the Oxford one. Which I assume was developed by people born in the UK, EU and the rest of the world.

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The trick succeeded only because the people’s interests had been twisted for years in an orchestrated campaign of propaganda. Before the mention of a Brexit referendum...

(Sighing) 

Here we go again, another article demonising the working classes. People Andrew Reid does not know and has never met, but apparently knows everything about and is quick to stereotype. Same tired old cliches...blah blah, led by donkeys, didn't know what they were voting for, lied to....blah blah blah. Honestly, this article could have been written by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

A quick UK history lesson... In 1975 the UK voted to join a common market with other European countries, not to join a political union. Many Labour MPs (e.g. Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle etc), unions and labour voters were against joining at that time. So euroscepticism has never been a right or left issue.

Flash forward to the present. The EU bears no relation to the common market people in 1975 voted to join. It was long over due that the people of the UK be asked if they wanted to be part of a political union.

On 12 Dec 2019 (UK election day) the people voted to save democracy and uphold the 2016 referendum result. A million times more important than Brexit, democracy itself was on the ballot paper. Thankfully enough British people still believe in the ballot box and they did just that. This is why in areas like mine, the Redwall (traditional Labour voting areas but not socialist) crumbled.

It will go down in UK political and democratic history as one of the most remarkable and important nights ever. Not because Boris Johnson and the Conservative party got an 80 seat majority. But because people from towns and villagers all over the UK lent their votes to save Democracy and once and for all crush the idea that MPs, the BBC, ITV, Sky, big business, newspapers, the establishment and powerful vested interests get to decide election results.

Apparently, Andrew Reid believes working class british people are drones. He's very wrong about that.