Django

VR is actually pretty tricky to shoot (especially 360). Because of the crazy wide FoV it brings up mad challenges for any type of controlled scene. There is also an immersive goal so you really gotta carefully plan what you’re set on achieving. You can’t really cut or change lenses, it’s usually real-time segments. I see way more potential in VR for video games than actual video production but there is a real market for it I know, as content is still rather limited. i haven’t really followed latest-gen cams or headsets but overall the tech wasn’t there yet for me. Especially resolution. Not to mention it gave me horrible motion sickness after 10-15mn. Now with 8K this could be game changing, and I have no idea what 3D+VR results in (that’s the real innovation of this Canon lens I believe, the double lens stereoscopic aspect) so I am kinda curious about the tech. More so the 3D aspect than 180/360 VR. For those that have tried it, how next-gen immersive does it feel? And for the guy who bought the lens: what are you planning on shooting with it?

@herein2020 I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Even if right now Canon only has FF RF lenses, I am pretty sure they will soon develop S35 cine glass as they are phasing out EF mount in favor of RF. Besides you already have a growing list of third-party S35 cine lenses in RF mount: https://filmdaft.com/rf-mount-lenses-cinema-list/ The BIG attraction of the RF mount is also that it opens up all types of lens adaptation choices, not just EF, and with speed boosting it gives you the FF FoV option. It's best of both worlds. Especially if you compare the C70 to its biggest competitor FX6 that can only do FF 4K. Another big plus of the C70's S35 sensor is it is the DGO sensor from the $11K C300 mk2, whereas the FX6 FF sensor is the same as the $3.5K A7S3. A FF "C50" could be in the works but would probably utilize the FF sensor from R5/R6/R3. Of which you'll never get the DR benefits of the DGO sensor. And if Canon develop a FF DGO sensor, you can be certain that will be for a flagship C500 mk3, not an entry-level C50. With Canon RAW coming to the C70 I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade to it from C200. I loved the C200 body & build-quality but the 8-bit compressed mp4 IQ was pretty awful and CRL files not compressed enough. Result was it gathered dust while I always favored FS7, BMD Raw or 10-bit mirrorless bodies. C70 just seems to me like the perfect compromise with a chunky compact DSLR form-factor but with ND's, I/Os on the body, RF mount with speed booster, CRL LT option, affordable SD media with 10-bit proxies on RAW and the mighty DGO sensor. The FX6 is also very tempting despite the $6K price tag for alpha line sensor and no 4K S35 mode.

By the way that Mandalorian article had other interesting parts pertaining to aesthetics and creation/use of custom film stock LUTs: “Our desire for cinematic imagery drove every choice,” Idoine adds. And that included the incorporation of a LUT emulating Kodak’s short-lived 500T 5230 color negative, a favorite of Fraser’s. “I used that stock on Killing Them Softly[AC Oct. ’12] and Foxcatcher [AC Dec. ’14], and I just loved its creamy shadows and the slight magenta cast in the highlights,” says Fraser. “For Rogue One, ILM was able to develop a LUT that emulated it, and I’ve been using that LUT ever since.” “Foxcatcher was the last film I shot on the stock, and then Kodak discontinued it,” continues Fraser. “At the time, we had some stock left over and I asked the production if we could donate it to an Australian film student and they said ‘yes,’ so we sent several boxes to Australia. When I was prepping Rogue One, I decided that was the look I wanted — this 5230 stock — but it was gone. On a long shot, I wrote an email to the film student to see if he had any stock left and, unbelievably, he had 50 feet in the bottom of his fridge. I had him send that directly to ILM and they created a LUT from it that I used on Rogue and now Mandalorian.” And on a side note while the show is shot on AlexaLF, all the backdrops used in the virtual production were shot on Canon 5DIV & 5DS. A 5D3 was even used in season one to do old-school first trilogy type stop motion sequences: Who would have thought Canon DSLRs would be so prevalent in such a cutting-edge high budget show?!

I feel there is still some misconceptions here that need addressing concerning high resolution. High resolution adds detail, not sharpness. Sharpness is usually due to camera image processing. Fortunately most recent cams allow you to bypass sharpening when shooting log. One of the main reasons you may think 6K/8K footage looks over sharp is when viewed windowed on a small screen. You need to view in full screen on a +4K monitor to appreciate it without it looking over sharp. That’s why in photography you don’t rush to a 50/100MP camera if you never plan on doing big prints or if you’re not a cropper. 8K today is a speciality use. Personally I wouldn’t mind having the option but it’s because I can think of specific cases/projects that could benefit from it, not to mention the stills extractions. Also nobody delivers in 8K yet. It’s a capture resolution. We’ve been through the type of tricks it can allow for a 4K or even 2K delivery. Just like when you’re shooting in 60p/120p, you’re doing that to create slow mo on a 24p/25p timeline. Nobody is complaining about high frame rate options. Well similar principle with resolution, you’re capturing with the intent to allow a certain flexibility in post. Getting back to sharpness, best way to offset it from the get go is through lenses (and filters). But there are subjects you may wanna soften and others sharpen. Greig Fraser (The Mandalorian) explains it best here: “The Ultra Vistas were a great choice for us because they have a good amount of character and softness,” Fraser continues. “Photographing the chrome helmet on Mando is a challenge — its super-sharp edges can quickly look video-like if the lens is too sharp. Having a softer acutance in the lens, which [Panavision senior vice president of optical engineering and ASC associate] Dan Sasaki [modified] for us, really helped. The lens we used for Mando tended to be a little too soft for human faces, so we usually shot Mando wide open, compensating for that with ND filters, and shot people 2⁄3 stop or 1 stop closed.” The thing is most people use modern mirrorless photo lenses that are optimised for high resolving power and minimal aberrations. The stuff the modern photographer wants to avoid but that the videographer/filmmaker may seek. And that’s were I think there is a bit of a missed opportunity from makers like Canon who release these bodies with amazing video specs but still not a single RF cine lens.

Been playing around with some FX6 footage, gotta say wow I'm very impressed. Maybe not as clean shadows or as organic looking as C70's DGO sensor but overall just excellent detailed IQ with a modern look that can be "mojo'd up" when pairing with vintage lens & grade: Getting Venice vibes from this cam's IQ. Biggest/Only con for me is no 4K S35 mode.

Well yeah like I said ProRes ensures minimum "pro" requirements, that's what makes it a popular pro standard VS h26x which has no rules. Editors/VFX don't like common h26x files because its hard to know/guarantee the encoding/bitrate settings. That is why Canon developed XF-AVC format ensuring high bitrate 10-bit 4:2:2 or Sony XAVC-I ensuring Intra 10-bit 4:2:2. ProRes 444 also goes beyond h26x max settings with 12-bit 4:4:4 making it the highest quality lossy file after RAW/ProRes RAW.

Just because h26x was designed for lower bitrates doesn't mean it has to be (just like other lossy formats like mp3). Today most cameras offer 10-bit 4:2:2 high bitrate ALL-I h26x recording options. ProRes is also a lossy codec. It just ensures minimum quality requirements like 10-bit 4:2:2 ALL-I at various set bitrates. Its mostly appreciated by editors as the low compression ALL-I decodes and cuts nicely on most systems. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a wide range of h26x compression settings so saying the codec looks "harsh & digital" is a bit of a blanket statement. That said ProRes is an excellent pro standard capture codec and I do think it's great it's making its way in consumer/prosumer cameras.

So I guess every time you go to the cinema or watch a show on Netflix you find the viewing experience "agressive & digital looking"? I'm saying so cuz you do realise that all your favorite shows/movies on Netflix or on BluRay are all encoded in h264/h265 ? And that your 2K/4K movie theatre uses DCP projection using JPG2000 compression with a maximum bitrate of 250Mbps regardless of capture resolution. Truth is: you will never access and view any Hollywood film/show material in ProRes or RAW. Those are acquisition formats that capture the most info to transfer to post and for mastering. As for still capture/extraction, choosing between RAW & h264/h265 is the same dilemma as choosing between RAW & Jpg.

Well Z9 does 8K RAW & ProRes.. R5C 8K RAW (up to 2140Mbps) or high bitrate 10-bit compressed 8K (540Mbps).

That much is obvious considering 4K = 8.8MP and 8K = 33.2MP

In the overexposure test C70 & R5C seem to both clip around +4 stops. Seems like the highlight DR is about the same. It's in the underexposure test that we clearly see the DGO sensor doing its magic: at -4 stops both the R5C/FX3 are unusable with horizontal noise and color shifting whereas the C70 maintains a much more usable IQ with a more filmic noise, much less colorshift and no horizontal patterns that give that nasty digital video look. Furthermore having now played with R5C (RAW & compressed) & C70 footage, I can only attest the incredible amount of shadow information that you can pull on the C70. On the R5C it gets noisy and ugly really quick. This really limits the R5C to a crushed black, contrasty look when pushing in post, whereas the C70 has so much more latitude thanks to all that precious clean shadow information. (by the way on a side-note the R6 stands somewhere in between, with much more pleasant shadow noise than R5/R5C but nowhere as good as C70) Quite an eye-opener to verify this myself and I can now safely say my A cam choice would clearly lean towards C70.

We're a little off-topic but it does relate to high-resolution which is a running theme so I say we get a pass. Zero photography sounds a little extreme/unlikely no? Like you said there is motion blur but also surely you use flash/sync in low-light situations like church/mairie and during the evening? Or perhaps slow-exposure and shallow DoF which could be harder to manage in video. I don't see 4K/6K/8K as a replacement for photography but rather a supplemental source for specific extraction. Sport/Action shooters are probably the ones that benefit the most from that. Z9 even has a 120fps burst mode in photo mode that I suspect engages 4K120p and converts each frame to jpg.

Oh I agree, C70 won't be as popular in rental houses or green-screen studios etc due to lack of SDI's & mini XLR ports. But also lens system. Sony has a Pro Cine zooms and such whereas RF is basically just photo lenses as of right now. That's actually a major factor that places the FX line way ahead of C70. The Vari ND is also a killer feature. I guess thinking of it more, the FX6 is really growing on me. Maybe I should consider upgrading to it from my FS7?

@MrSMW Yeah I've done my share of weddings.. never had such issues with guests but I can only imagine lol. For me though, the complicated thing as a videographer was always.. getting along with the photographer. 😉 There is this sort of unsaid hierarchy where they precede you, and might not get out of the way when you're also trying to get that money shot (kiss, ring etc) . Of course this may just be isolated poor experiences and with most pros we'll discuss/arrange in advance positionning but it ain't always easy, weddings often get hectic. Working solo on photo/video duties would sure simplify those situations but what a task! Is that what you usually do? This is a type of gig where I'd imagine that 8K could really be beneficial as you could film and extract stills (at least when lighting conditions allow it).

I don't think I've ever used the SDI ports on my FS7 so not a big deal for my type of shooting. C70 is definitely more of a solo operator, run & gun cam. The form factor is also something to consider. There's a real market for that segment although I agree it doesn't overlap with FS7/FX9 market. Again with internal RAW coming and the C300mk3 DGO sensor it can be a valid option over an FX6 as this user explains why he switched:

I should add that even when shooting on iPhones, we're not just shooting it handheld like dummies. We're using tripods & gimbals, shoot with Filmic Pro which allows shutter angle, ISO control, Manual focus etc. We try and use original camera movements or angles a smartphone may open-up, shoot under water/rain/snow conditions etc. On a related note, clients can be very curious about your gear and I've had some cringe moments when they'll say: my partner, brother, son-in-law has that same [5D3/A7S/XT3/R6] semi-implying you're an amateur. Or worse you'll show up at a gig with a hybrid and some assistant might ask: is a photo shoot planned today? You have to learn to laugh it off. But sometimes looks do matter as superficial as it may sound. On certain comfortable budgets I've been told to avoid hybrids (even when they might suffice) and bring the cine cam. I guarantee no snarky comment when I rig up the FS7/C200. With BMD/RED on set clients are straight up intimidated and it could go the other way and make talent nervous. So I guess "aesthetics" also applies to hardware cosmetics at times!

Not many people are actually delivering in 8K aside from a handful of YT channels and 1 or 2 TV networks in Japan. The point of 8K today is really getting great 4K deliveries or extracting stills. Just like Yellowstone is shooting on an Alexa in 3.2K for 720p/1080i delivery. It's actually oversampled acquisition. It's not at all about cropping 400% into someones face. Does a medium format portrait photographer on a 100MP Hasselblad publish stills zoomed into the nostril or eyeball of his models? Of course not and the same common sense applies to high res video. It's not a bad camera at all, especially if you shoot in RAW. But the h264 4K on it is really soft (whereas the C100 had the best oversampled FHD). C200B kinda sucks too, you'll have to buy the over-priced LCD just to get touch AF, same with top handle and side grip. Then all of a sudden you're in R5C/C70 territory. So yeah I'd wait until it drops some more if you're eyeballing it. EF mount is about to be phased out and all those C cams are dropping in value like crazy. I don't personally specialise in these type of gigs but what I can tell you is this: the camera itself isn't really where the production costs are: gathering talent, locations, directing, scripting, editing etc however are. shooting with an iPhone can also bring its own share of challenges, the cameras suck at low-light for ex. Which is why sometimes we'll actually use a mirrorless to emulate a smartphone look. Finally the overall budget and profit margins are nowhere near what other big projects may involve, so in short no, not that lucrative. But It's an interesting alley to explore, shooting vertical isn't always as bad as people may think (there are ways to take advantage of it even).

My bad I didn't mean it in such a condescending way, I was still shooting myself on a FHD C100 not that long ago. Once I upgraded to a 5K iMac Pro, well that's when I realised that FHD footage wasn't going to cut it for me anymore. Even C200 4K looked terribly soft, so I got rid of both. (That and because of lack of 10-bit codec). Never looked back. I just feel sometimes that most people who hate on 6K/8K haven't really properly experienced it and the benefits it can bring. Having actually worked on 8K footage, I feel it can't be unseen. But I'm also on +4K monitors. So I guess I could easily reverse ignorance is bliss to upgrading can raise expectations. I'm not some kind of high-res fanatic though. I enjoy lo-fi aesthetics immensely as well. I just don't get this idea that high-resolution is somehow taking away from other IQ related specs. Pocket 6K & Z9 give you ProRes. 10-bit & 12-bit RAW are now internal. DR keeps getting better. Rolling Shutter keeps going down. Low-light keeps improving etc.. I never advised 8K for social media. An actual iPhone is usually enough to create.. an iPhone look. Anybody can shoot Portrait mode tho.. the cool kids are all about standing out.. and looking cool. Retro/nostalgia is a powerful thing. Gen-Z all about the 90's right now. Anything from clothing to technology to music, animes etc from that era is what's popping. For example Contax T3's are listing for $3K, you can thank YT/IG analogue influencers. oh yeah it's wild, experimental, artistic and funny !.. must see.

..and for actual French new-wave cinematographers absolutely check out Gaspard Noé. His latest is actually a movie about a movie shoot gone totally wrong because of director/DP/actors gone mad: shot on 35mm in multi-cam, displayed in split screen..

Actually living right here in Paris, France.. this does speak to me lol. FWIW Godard's last projects were actually done with rather low-budget digital camcorders, DSLRs etc.. but experimenting with 3D and heavily treated in post..

I think its the principle that it is easier to dirty something clean, then "enhance" something dirty/low-res. That said, nobody claimed +4K was necessary. On the contrary, shoot in 720p/1080p if that floats your boat. Never upgrade. Ignorance is bliss as they say! Just please don't complain about the tech moving forward.. Film photography is having a resurgence with Gen Z because its A) Retro so cool B) Analog vs Digital (which perpetuates this idea of Real vs Fake) C) Physical medium that they can touch. It's a bit like vinyl records making a come back for similar reasons. On the one hand yes, but it really isn't that simple when you actually think that 35mm film is approx equivalent to 20MP. Medium format can theoretically resolve from 80MP to 125MP. And Large format 300MP to 1,200MP. Of course this is greatly limited by optical lens resolving power and film adds all kinds of artefacts like grain/noise and has reduced DR etc. That immediately gives it an "old" feel. But one shouldn't mistake film = low res. What I'm trying to say is forget about resolution wars. The shift goes way beyond all these technical attributes, the fashion brands I'm talking about went from using A-list models, posing towards the camera in a studio background shot on Phase One in B&W... to faux-iPhone snapshots of popular Gen Z TikTokers in situ..

C70 is making waves and is pretty popular, and with the RAW light update it's only getting better. I'm split in between getting one and the R5C. Also a long-term FS7 user, this camera still does it for me in 2022. Absolute workhorse. Love the IQ in Cine EI mode. The shoulder mount ENG config is what sets it apart from the rest of the "budget" cine cams out there. Would love an FX9 but I can't really justify the $11K price tag upgrade.

@kye not only do I get what you're saying, I've rebutted every single "complaint" you've brought up about +4K resolution. ($1M budget VFX, battery life, color science, processing power, SD cards). like it or not, tech is moving forward. especially in mirrorless. BMPCC 6K Pro, R3/R5/R5C, Z9, S1H are paving the way with compressed RAW, 10-bit & 6K/8K. All specs you find in much more expensive cine cams. I call this progress. Of course that won't replace lenses, lighting, grading & skills. But the bottleneck isn't the camera anymore. In the end you're entitled your opinion (things were better a decade ago - i.e. pre-4K) but in that case, simply don't upgrade. problem fixed. Just saying.

Stabilisation, reframing & cropping aren't any kind of complex post techniques that would require $1M budget VFX unit. Any NLE has those features built-in and just about any one can take advantage of those benefits.. This is simply untrue. CamerLabs reported: R5C clips kept recording until its battery ran out after 53 minutes and 15 seconds of 8k 24p. That is outstanding battery life for a MILC, let alone in 8K. Add the power grip and that time is doubled. Only 8K60p requires an external battery. Color grading has various degrees of complexity but one can't deny its also become hugely accessible, especially thanks to Resolve which is basically free. I'm not even sure how you can start this "aesthetic" conversation with ARRI as a reference point if you're not willing to consider Log/RAW. No SOOC manufacturer profile will give you that million $ budget look you desire. LUTs can also bring you closer if manual grading is out of reach. So why wasn't LUT support there in HD/FHD/4K hybrids? Aside from Panasonic & BMD nobody else has been doing it. its got nothing to do with pixels but more about keeping cine features aside for various segmentation reasons. Stills PDAF system on Sony/Nikon/Canon hybrids may also be a CPU factor which is why R5C reboots into a cine OS (with DPAF1) when in video mode. Such a bizarre argument. I guess never upgrade towards anything with that type of logic?! Trust me when investing +$5K/$6K on a 8K camera body, a new SD card isn't what's holding you back financially. And on the economy side, cameras like BMPCC 6K allow you to record on a SSD via USB-C. That's cheaper buck/storage ratio than any card media. Sorry bro we get you're not ready to jump above 4K and that's fine but your logic is really starting to sound like straw man argumenting.

One of the great cine features that made it to R5C is LUT import support. I use this all the time on my FS7 in order to get specific looks SOOC (Venice, ARRI, Fuji/Kodak etc but also super custom LUTs). This opens up an infinity of SOOC looks as you are no longer reduced to the 5 or 6 manufacturer picture profiles. An essential feature when working on projects with fast turnaround. Different needs and different requirements.. for example Yellowstone is a a Paramount Network show, meaning it is broadcasted in 720p / 1080i (and in 1080p on streaming network). Meaning the Alexa Mini's 3.2K is more than sufficient. Quick search reveals this interesting info: We shot three-cameras most days, on the ARRI Alexa Mini and the ARRI Amira in ProRes 4444 3.2K, Log-C. We carried several sets of ARRI Ultra Prime lenses, and a selection of Angenieux zooms, including the 45-120 and the 24-290. I am a big fan of the Ultra Prime lenses for their simplicity and gentle rendering. I shot Wind River on the older ARRI/Zeiss Standard Speed primes and have always admired their elegant sharpness and gentle yet detailed falloff. The Ultra Primes carry that same DNA in a more modern housing, suitable for the scale of a production like this one. I find them unfussy and gently flattering, with just enough personality to enhance the natural lighting scheme we were striving for. I viewed on-set--and subsequently completed the DI--through a custom LUT I have been refining over several years.” Kind of ties in to what I was saying above about custom LUT support being such a great feature. The hybrid making of Dune is definitely interesting. Reminds me of a big trend in electronic music production which is called analog summing (roundtrip through analog) in order to shave away digital harshness.. "it gave us the feeling we had been picturing a certain texture that’s painterly but feels timeless…The film has softened the edges of the digital. It gave us something that film acquisition couldn’t give us, and it gave us something that digital acquisition couldn’t give us" Yeah it is really quite subjective but also depends on the content/medium. Narrative fiction often requires a heavier look, whereas documentaries are much more neutral. Again depends on content/medium, but you're certainly right about Gen Z: I can tell you that when contracted to do certain social media content like IG stories, clients usually insist on using iPhones so that the content appears "authentic". And if you do use an MILC, then you need to avoid shallow DoF, shoot in vertical, avoid LUTs etc. Basically you're emulating smartphones. A lot of Fashion brands have also switched their aesthetic to shooting online photo campaigns on smartphones instead of FF or Medium Format. This includes the likes of very famous photographers which is kind of a shock and a trend change nobody would have predicted a couple years ago.