TVDino

Had hoped someone could clarify the Mystery (pun intended)
about the missing XLR-inputs on RED's cameras , but perhaps
this shall be revealed soon enough .  In the meantime I feel
like celebrating Mark Twain for his wisdom of mankind ...

Whatever mailing list or people believe, I think it is still best criticised & described by HelsinkiZim :

16 hours ago, HelsinkiZim said:

For a laugh, i'll break down this email from a salesman's/ executive producer's point of view.

"Greetings!
- denotes all times of day and suggests something festive is entailed.

Yes, we actually exist and have a voice.
- you don't know who we are but you did at some point, but you have forgotten.

We are incredibly grateful and humbled by all the support.
- OK, even if you don't remember us, everyone else does. (Classic 'humblebrag').

And because of that, we are only sharing the following email to you—our early adopter email list.
- FYI, you are special and unique and part of a private club who got in first. Aren't you lucky?

We have looked forward to sending this email for months. You should know that we will not publish this anywhere else. That means you are the first to know.
- you owe us your attention because we have invested a lot of time on this product exclusively for your benefit, and you have such a unique opportunity here because we haven't told the world about it yet because you are our favorite person. When we tell everyone, we can't make any promises on your VIP status.

I bet many of you have wondered, “What’s the deal with Craft?" There has been an outpouring of interest for Craft from all over the world and from all walks of life—from Hollywood, indies, corporate marketing departments, agencies, and amateurs. They have reached out by the thousands trying to figure out what we are working on.
- (more humblebrag) My lord, have you been missing out!

For over a year, we have been developing the Craft Camera—a new system that we believe will help users tell better stories.
- we have developed a system to make you a creative genius, you are a craftsman and we are called Craft, geddit?

On April 18th around 12pm EST, we will announce Craft Camera on craftcamera.com. This announcement will include initial information, a first glimpse of the Craft Camera, and we will start taking initial reservations.
- Sshhh, listen, here are some hard facts. We are committing to a time and place for one time only. We will blow you away with a few seconds of footage and allow you to give us your credit card details, BUT only if you are on time and in the right place.

Since Craft Camera is still in development, we won’t be releasing every single detail because we hope to get feedback from reservation holders before we publish final details.
- in case you aren't impressed, don't worry, you haven't been given all the information and glimpses yet, be patient and get in line anyways. We will figure this spec stuff out eventually once we receive enough complaints to warrant changes.

A reservation will require a $500 deposit, your name, email, and phone number. Reservations will only be available on craftcamea.com and will be 100% refundable. Your deposit will be deducted from the total price once you place an order at a later date.
- (classic close) Absolutely no risk involved. But wait there's more...

As a reservation holder, you will also receive a 10% discount off your final order along with some additional perks like first looks, priority reservations on future products and a few other surprises.
- (classic time sensitive bonuses)

Please note we are offering a limited number of reservations which is why we wanted you to know about this first. This means when we hit our limit we will stop taking reservations. No exceptions. The reservations are first come first serve and when the cameras ship, we will do so in the order that the reservation was placed. 
- remember, this deal is exclusive to you and time sensitive. This is urgent!

The Craft Camera comes in 2 models. There are 4K and HD models with a price range between $699 and $2899 depending on the configuration. Initial units will ship late 2016.
- (actual information, vague, but actual information). Comforting because facts make you feel good, right? But not to many or you will commit from informed deliberation rather than impulse, which is not cool for us.

I will leave you with this—we believe there is a huge need for Craft Camera. We believe it is a revolutionary product that will give production alums a great tool to do things they couldn’t do before while opening up storytelling through motion pictures to a whole new generation.
- (rehash of making you a creative genius theme) You will have an advantage amongst your peers. You will be Spielberg, or maybe Jim Jarmusch... at the very least.

With that said, we understand Craft Camera might not be for you and...we are fine with that! We will still treat you with respect and we hope the same from you.
- seriously, no pressure.

I am truly humbled by all the support, and I hope you become a part of the Craft family.
- (humblebrag,) we have heritage and will be around forever.

Keep telling beautiful stories.
- we are on your side, you artist you *pinches cheek*. Monies? What's that?

Scott Brag(g)
- Mr. S. Humble...

Founder of Craft Digital Systems Inc. "
- the absolute boss and the ducks nuts.
 

That was fun (for me). Having sold stuff from Kirby vacuum cleaners to tvc airtime, its a trip down memory lane. I wouldn't touch this kit with a ten foot pole. A bit too sleazy for me.

If it's a young company then I would ditch the bullet-benefit-close-bonus approach and just talk about the things you are trying to solve for your target demographic. Visuals, ergonomics, mobility, compatibility... etc. (even if its just your intentions, with no hard specs to announce)

*********************************************************************************************

14 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

And until then some of us are speculating as to what could be announced and are counting our blessings for living during a time where so many great opportunities are available

Yes, so many blessings ... but only if You have a Panamanian account and moved it before things got exposed !!!  (Joking, maybe we're all poor ?) 

5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Scarlet doesnt have an XLR module with +48V? I thought it did.

Aha, but doing some research on the RED cameras brought back claims of no XLR-input on neither Epic, Scarlet or RED ONE !
And certainly no Phantom power ... If this is true, Mattias, I might drop Your idea of getting a used Scarlet MX; REDs homepage
neither mentions this !   At least with RAVEN (and assumeably Weapon) You can add an expander-module with 2 XLR-inputs -
for only $ 4000 ! What a bargain . 

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Exactly, there is nothing that says that this isn't the same case.
We will have to wait, and I suspect thats the whole idea behind the campaign, they know people hate to wait.

Yeah, people hate waiting, so therefore on monday they'll deposit money like ecstatic fanboys from reduser.net or blackmagic.net ! Right ...
And as the danish Philosopher Kierkegaard said : "The joy of anticipation is often the biggest !" .  He must have seen the Marx brothers ...

PS : Did no one read my previous want-to-believe-post ?Here's the funny part of it ..
Perhaps it will interest You to know that the SAME EMAIL only for EOSHD has been sent to REDUSER.NET ? 
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?143452-New-Camera-called-Craft/page3&highlight=craftcamera

 

While others will maintain the world is ROUND ...   If it's too good to be true ... (it's a $ 6.000 Raven or CraftCamera ?)

Perhaps it will interest You to know that the SAME EMAIL only for EOSHD has been sent to REDUSER.NET ? 

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?143452-New-Camera-called-Craft/page3&highlight=craftcamera 

14 hours ago, TVDino said:

"Hmmm, If I was only mailing to potential buyer-groups, I do not want ANY speculation about my business !
They surely must know this would happen and COULD have provided some photographs or more specs ...
OK to keep secretive, but this is an exaggeration and a VERY "shady" sign !  Also I checked jcs' link :
http://petapixel.com/2013/02/25/craft-camera-a-diy-digital-camera-made-with-cardboard-and-arduino/
and it leads to an interesting web-address http://craft-camera.com/ ... much like http://www.craftcamera.com/"

We want to believe in the CHEAP RED (even RED knows to use this !) & the PROMISED BLACKMAGIC !  (Unintended dirty )

NB : Actually the want-to-believe-joke's dirtiness with CHEAP RED (Dana Sculley) and PROMISED BLACKMAGIC (Fox Mulder) gets
UNINTENTIONALLY again (I swear !) even dirtier, when You read the name of this thread :   "Craft Camera is coming!"    

6 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Scarlet doesnt have an XLR module with +48V? I thought it did.

Dont think he meant Scarlet, Mattias, I read jghardings words this way :

>> If you can be bothered to deal with a Red One MX it's even cheaper.
no built in NDs, no XLRs or phantom power,  expensive accessories and... A world class image. <<

14 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

You dont know their plan = you dont know if its good or bad.

The only thing that will measure the effect of their comunication is the cash left after expenses on the company's account. We can only wait and see.

To most eyes Blackmagics comunication is strange. Goes against most PR practice and theory. Still they are doing allright both among amateurs and Hollywood. And their users swear by the quality. 

But when people use FUD - Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt - as strategy before launching the products, in a campaign aimed at customers to place deposits
I find it is like shooting Yourself in the foot .   I bet this will turn many more away, than attract some - don't You agree that it looks "Nigeriean-style" ?

26 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Well, Red bans forum users and I dont have to mention Blackmagic.

As an expert in the subject I can say, there are more media strategies than one. There are thousands. I would be very surpriced if thet didnt have a reason for doing what they do. Time will tell if its good or bad.

Sure, there's more than one strategy, but don't You find it rather stupid to BEGIN with the "FUD-publicity-is-better-than-none-strategy" ?

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Who says its someone without experience, they could all be Samsung drop outs for all we know.

The Digital Bolex was just two people with a dream. One had built a photoboth. And that camera is imo one of the top tier cinema cameras out there.

Might be so; but we know 1 thing for sure : They haven't hired any sensible marketing-strategist or PR-campaignist !!! 
(Then they would have given customers foretastes, pictures, specs etc. to awaken appetite instead of giving rise to scepticism ...)

16 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bergman never had 4K.
Bergman never had 12 bit.
Bergman never had raw.
Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them?
Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too ...
... would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it.
By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less ...
... to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

15 hours ago, Ed Andrews said:

I often feel the reason people are so in awe of cameras Red and Arri are because they are invariably used in productions where there's a team of highly skilled professionals working with good lighting, locations and post-production/grade. They see the finished shots and immediately think its down to the camera, not all the other stuff that's going into it. 

I feel my work has improved massively in the last year through nerding up on lighting techniques and working with some great people. Invest your money in those sort of things...

 

5 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Exactly... It's a gimmick. I could film an entire movie on a cell phone and then color correct it, color grade it, and noise reduce it. Throw a company label on it ship it to a distribution company, never tell the camera used. In behind the scenes footage show a picture of me using an expensive camera and BAM! People automatically thought it was professionally made.

 

In fact do you want to know something, the most popular videos on vimeo do not even dare have technical details of the cameras used and some of them look like they were shot on DSLRs, camcorders, and a lot of others and people do not even think of it in the comment section. That is what I am talking about. You need to veer your audience away from filmmakers and into audience members like me, common people (that probably sounded off), but you'll understand once it kicks in at a second or third thought.

Now I know why FACEBOOK got popular, because the old (black ?) school FORUMS often have inherent or inbuilt ever-so-well-meant
"Guardianism" - a therapist who once helped ME stop this, would call it "Maternalism/Paternalism" - and it sips through the Forum-walls,
whenever there's an ever-so-well-meant (but still condescending !) action taking place UNDERNEATH the sharing of experiences ...

I came to this Forum asking for help, on an equal ground and I've been respectfully treated as a fellow-filmmaker by everyone in here,
untill someone apparently needed to assert his selfesteem on my expense !   But many people has self-treated their lack of respect for
others socially & psychologically .   It's a private matter to start self-criticism and often caused by other peoples reaction to the "Bully" .

However the persons "suffering from bullying" still is a compulsive dominant punk and must be stopped as soon as this "shines through"
(Thank You Kubrick & King !) and take a Cold Turkey ... Facebook might be rude and crazy, yet FORUM-bullying is difficult to practice !

So how do I dare claim this reason-lapse ? I don't question that persons filmmaking experince, even when that person questions mine .
  
Maybe EOSHD's moderators will behave like reduser.net = expell me too, for criticising a bad habbit Forums allow/get too used to,
but in my 7 years of instructing actors I have always stopped this behaviour from myself or the crew IMMEDIATELY .  A very sad vice .

AND I agre 112 % that a camera does not make an Emperor - but remember it was another DANISH storyteller who wrote that story ...

PS : Regarding buying expensive or advanced equipment (not assuming envy !  (More HAPPY icons, please)) ...

*** Thanks for advicing, though I've heard that argument before ... It's not the equipment, it's the many stories I tell ! ***
*** But then again, I as a PC-expert (and a Storyteller) can use my super-computer better than my standard-laptop ! ***

It's sad how we deep down want a saviour; either in the next WonderWoman/Scrooge McDuck or in the shape of the next PERFECT
Graphics-card, the next PERFECT child or saddest of all :    The dream-makers dream of the next PERFECT DREAM-MACHINE ...

"We want to believe in the CHEAP RED (even RED knows to use this !) & the PROMISED BLACKMAGIC !  (Unintended dirty )"

28 minutes ago, HelsinkiZim said:

For a laugh, i'll break down this email from a salesman's/ executive producer's point of view.

"Greetings!
- denotes all times of day and suggests something festive is entailed.

Yes, we actually exist and have a voice.
- you don't know who they are but they are suggesting you did at some point, but have forgotten.

We are incredibly grateful and humbled by all the support.
- you don't know us, but everyone else does. (Classic 'humblebrag').

And because of that, we are only sharing the following email to you—our early adopter email list.
- you are special and unique and part of a private club who got in first.

***************************** And so on ***************************

Keep telling beautiful stories.
- we are on your side, you artist you *pinches cheek*

Scott Brag(g)
- Mr. Humble...

Founder of Craft Digital Systems Inc. "
- the absolute boss and the ducks nuts.
 

That was fun (for me). Time for bed.

He, He !   I didn't need to read it all to recognize the "Nigerian-style"    And I can only agree and repeat my arguments :

"Hmmm, If I was only mailing to potential buyer-groups, I do not want ANY speculation about my business !
They surely must know this would happen and COULD have provided some photographs or more specs ...
OK to keep secretive, but this is an exaggeration and a VERY "shady" sign !  Also I checked jcs' link :
http://petapixel.com/2013/02/25/craft-camera-a-diy-digital-camera-made-with-cardboard-and-arduino/
and it leads to an interesting web-address http://craft-camera.com/ ... much like http://www.craftcamera.com/"

We want to believe in the CHEAP RED (even RED knows to use this !) & the PROMISED BLACKMAGIC !  (Unintended dirty )

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bergman never had 4K.

Bergman never had 12 bit.

Bergman never had raw.

Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them? Or maybe they are really just a "want"? :-) 

Then you don't want a Scarlet-MX. You'll get better lowlight performance from even a BMPCC.

 

Going from a Canon HFS-10 to a RED Scarlet-MX or similar is a *HUGE* leap. Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too, such as audio / lenses / lighting / rigging / etc and more. So even if you had the budget to buy say a RED Raven tomorrow, you should not! As you'd find once you get all that other stuff, then say a Panasonic GH4 would fit your budget better. 

Additionally, say a GH4 for instance, would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it. By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less, it is waaaaay far better to have done that with a cheap GH4 body than to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

 

Sir, I don't make Bergman-movies; I make TVDino-movies in "Bergman-style" - not Bergman-like, OK ?
Explain Yourself, why I should reveal MY ideas of using slowmotion ?    Sorry; a secret untill the movie !

Look Sir IronFilm, I thought You would be helpful, so I concentrated/pinned down, what was in my posts,
(did You read them ?) but Your way of helping reminds me of last time I was mugged in broad daylight ...

And I said Scarlet-MX OR Epic-MX !   I'm not some RED-boy, but excuse me for LOL at your suggestion
of using a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera ?  I can only take You serious if You admit you're joking !

You don't know anything about me and I think YOU succeed best in removing any intention of getting to
know anything about You - I have locations, actors, stunts, celebrities, musicians and more ready ... and
not just because they know my father was a man Bergman invited to work for him, but I can't tell more .

And as for marathon, I was born running !   So, big thanks for a lesson in "how not to behave arrogant !"

Listen IronFilm, I have checked Your movies and I hope YOU someday will invent a great story to shoot;
but my head is like Woody Allens, bursting with stories and they won't wait for clever over-preparations !

I know I can do it and I easily shrug Your Over-lording off, but do You usually try to take the enthusiasm
from people and tell them to LEARN ALL MECHANICS OF A CAR before they drive ???  Angry ? Yes !

Hmmm, If I was only mailing to potential buyer-groups, I do not want ANY speculation about my business !
They surely must know this would happen and COULD have provided some photographs or more specs ...
OK to keep secretive, but this is an exaggeration and a VERY "shady" sign !  Also I checked jcs' link :
http://petapixel.com/2013/02/25/craft-camera-a-diy-digital-camera-made-with-cardboard-and-arduino/
and it leads to an interesting web-address http://craft-camera.com/ ... much like http://www.craftcamera.com/

12 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

You certainly do talk like me.

10 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

TVDINO does too.

Erh, is this a compliment or an insult ?!?     

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A few key points are missing....

 

What do you specifically NEED?

What features do you "WANT"?

What are you doing/using NOW?

 

Also, as a general rule: never ever borrow money for a camera!! (Not unless you're very certain about a quick and healthy ROI)

Thanks for participating, I will try to concentrate my previous posts further ...

"What do you specifically NEED?"

1. A Camera able to make a "slow" Bergman-style >90 min. Cinema-movie
    in good-looking 4K 12 bit RAW, preferably with slow-motion-possibilities
    so I can perfect/add psychological colour-tones and lightings in postwork
2. Perhaps a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable)
   + spend on other stuff necessary"
3. And I have access to friends fine EF-lenses, so I "plan to use EF-mount"
4.  But I'm open to suggestions about needed equipment ...

"What features do you WANT?"

Finest grain, true colour and high low-light performance ...  Of course ?
And hopefully the Camera can shoot Ratio of 2,4:1 or well above 16:9 !

"What are you doing/using NOW?"

2 Canon HFS-10; This type was used as a drop camera in "Crank" 
Fortunately, good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Also I don't let GENERALS RULE my life ... ;-)  BTW, I found the missing ...  

You probably are ...  I feel like Groucho Marx being hustled in "A day at the Races" by Chico & Harpo ... 
"Tootsi-frootsi-icecream !"
Will have a look at it and here's some info about the transfer-formats to Sonys solution !

https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/resource.latest.bbsccms-assets-cat-cambroprod-latest-hxrifr5.shtml

I cannot access the pictures as I'm not a member, but post them here, AaronChicago .  It's OK .

26 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

TV Dino, the Odyssey 7Q and 7Q+ record s35 4K raw upto 60fps (continuous) and 120fps in 4 second bursts. It can also take the raw signal and convert to ProRes, which also looks great.

You need to make sure the Fs700 has been upgraded to allow raw via the HD-SDI, but otherwise it is fairly small and cheap way to get some very high end features. I have seen FS700/O7q combos for $6K or so... I really think it is a better deal than a used Scarlet, but depends on your workflow, image tastes etc.

Even just having ND filters is a massive plus, for me... E mount is great... Low light good... Checks alot of boxes

Great ... Guess it is the 4 K RAW defined as 4096 x 2160 ?  Or does it transfer 4K RAW as 3840 pixels × 2160 (UHD ratio 16:9)
Then I have to post-process this into 2,4:1 = 4096 x 1708 ... IF I want a wide cinemaformat .  It's not inherent anywhere ...

As I understand it the NEX-FS700 does not need the HXR-IFR5 Interface Unit for transmitting 4K raw to Odyssey 7 Q/Q+, right ?

There's no ND filters in Scarlet/Epic ?   But I read they have "selectable" mount ?   What about THEIR low light ?
 

36 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

I saw no moire at all while shooting 4K on the FS700.

My mistake, I was referring to the Canon 1DX-II-suggestion from Jimmy and the cameras got mixed up in the postings !
However there seems to be some rolling shutter-problems in normal recording ... https://vimeo.com/40505132

Oh, boy I cannot edit my mistake above !  Do the Forum close editing after 1 hour ?!?

Well, I mixed up a couple of Sonys ...    And wrote about FS700 when Geoff CB talked about FS5 !

1 hour ago, Geoff CB said:

You said you really enjoyed the form factor of the FS5, isn't that getting RAW soon? If so go with that.

Sorry Geoff CB, I said I like the ergonomic of the FS5, but it is only 8 or 10 bit to external ...
But where did You hear the FS5 will get Raw ?   Now, THAT is interesting !!! 
 

However the question is if the FS700 will get internal 4K RAW ...  And in 2,4 : 1 format ?
Apparently You can upgrade it to 4K Raw, but only to external (and very expensive Sony-solution !)

Still, the Odyssey 7 Q maybe is upgraded/upgradeable by now to record 4K RAW ?

Correction : Seems I was crazy about VG900; not FS700 a I claimed !
                    They do share features however, like the NEX-name ...

What about moire on  ?  That's what first attracted me to A7S2 ("binning" the problems !) ...

Ooops Jimmy :  You talked about FS700, but I was adressing Your 1DX-II-suggestion ;-)
I meant the 1DX-II You first mentioned !   And the 1DX-II cannot record in the format 2,4 : 1 .

Thanks AaronChicago .  And I do know this FS700 very well !    With the super-slowmotion of butterflies on Youtube !
Just remembered it erroneously as NEX-700 ! I was crazy about that "monster" before I got "lowbit-blinded" by A7S2 ...
I'll have another look at it, but I think there was some other sort of problem - was it the colourscheme of Sony ?  Hmm

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

I know it is a bit of a cliché, but if you are making a feature, could the bulk of the money be better spent elsewhere? Lights, glass, actors, script help, gimbal etc etc

Psychologically, that is why I'm adressing all of You .  I feel pulled around by RED, trying to find out why we Europeans must pay 10.000 €/EURO !
About 1500 $ more than Amercans pay !  But EU's import-tax is only 3 % (approx. 300 $ in all 10250 $) which only justify a price of 9.000 €/EURO !

Giving 1.000 £/EURO more FOR FREE to a wealthy company, is why they might lose a RAVEN-customer; I now consider following Mattias' advice
and get a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable) + spend on other stuff necessary .   Good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Still, I'd like to hear recommendations/experiences with Scarlet-X or RED Epic and the "old" MX-sensor and what to watch out for .
Especially what about Scarlets/Epics mounts (I plan to use EF), is there any LUTS and any PRO-RES (at what resolution) etc. 

PS :   Jimmy, You edited & added some camera-propositions to Your post; I will check them out and come back .
          And yes, I would prefer to shoot in 4K 2,4:1 
          But when You write combo, is it a recorder or screen alone and cannot fit/sit on the camera ?

9 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

You should also look into the Kinefinity Terra, or a battle tested Kinemini 4k for that matter. 

I did Oliver and they offer much more for the cash than others ...   BUT chinese service or support  
is perhaps on the same level as the one BlackMagic has a rumour for - even BM-fanboys admits this ! 

Thanks Mattias !  I assume Scarlet has "better grain" than ONE, so the important thing is the MX-sensor ?   But if I perhaps want slo-mo in 4K then what about the Epic MX ?  Probably VERY expensive ... if at all possible to find in used condition !
Bottomline is, I'm making a feature movie > 90 min. to play in cinemas first, later for TV .

Jimmy, I hear You, but when RED says the prices will go up on their homepage (and an email to an unspecified employee of an unspecified shop says he got an email from RED saying the prices would go up a certain amount I hold secret) they could be afraid of being ridiculed and therefore will stick to their words !   Cannot reveal that source, but cameras should get cheaper and this makes RED look Apple-ish !