dishe

Interesting- were you using an external recorder in those those shots? And Face-detection AF? Have you ever shot something without it that looked better? I'd think the bug was specific to the Alpha camera series because they have that skin smoothing option for portraits (I'm guessing, I have no idea why it exists in the first place to be honest), but then again Inazuma says their cell phones do it too! So maybe they keep the same code not realizing it had the same bug across all their products? 

I also wasn't aware of it until recently. It seems like this is a problem that keeps getting swept under the rug. I wish I had known about this before I started buying all this equipment. I think its time we all reached out to Sony and made some noise!

Reached out to Sony support on a whim- of course they say they aren't familiar with the bug (what else would a customer support rep say?), but a fix WAS released for the RX100 in a firmware. So, I think if enough people bring it to their attention, maybe something will happen? Shouldn't be a hard fix for them at all!

I think Sony users have to collectively make some more noise about this. They might not even know about it because people haven't noticed and/or dismissed it as low res footage!

I did that right away. Still could hardly make it to 29 minutes, usually cut off around 20. I tried putting an external power supply fed through a dummy battery hoping that would help the heat, and it did about double my recording time. But that means I can record to 29 min, then hit record again and only make it another 10-12min before it has to stop again. It just gets more frequent after that unless I give it time to cool off in between. That means 1hour long performances or lectures won't be able to be captured, which does not work for me. There must be a way to do this!

So, this came up in another thread I was just in, and I see it mentioned here and there on the forum, but I think it deserves its own topic so I'm starting one.
I recently became very interested in recording externally to an Atomos or similar from my Sony bodies in an attempt to break the 30min limit. Seemed like a no brainer, especially with the current ridiculous falling price of Ninja units. But before I jump in, I wanted to read up on the workflow so I'd know what to prepare for. Until now, I was unaware of what the Skin Smoothing setting in the camera did (honestly, what self respecting photog or videog would have that enabled in the first place anyway), but now I'm suddenly VERY aware of it. 

Apparently (and I'm just going by what I see online in my research), there is some sort of bug in the firmware of many of the BIONZ X based cameras, that turns this blasted smoothing feature on when recording video even if you disabled it in the menu. If you aren't aware of this bug, this guy's video pretty much nails it in demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6GVm1Ke2dQ
Since I didn't hear many people being scared off by this, I figured you can't go by one guy on the internet's opinion of a perceived problem. 

But then I found it again mentioned in Phillip Bloom's blog regarding using the A7S with a Shogun here:
http://philipbloom.net/blog/dad/ (about half way down the page)

And here it is again by Dave Dugdale:
http://www.learningvideo.com/atomos-shogun-review/ (third paragraph)

Then some guy in a forum shared this video to demonstrate how well the atomos was working with his A5100:
https://youtu.be/-DmrpLji6gk
He apparently wasn't even aware of the waxy skin thing going on with her face, but I see it right away now that i'm aware of it!

It seems that this issue is a legit one. While I've read that a firmware update to the RX series has solved it on that camera, the rest of us trying to record off our A6000, A5100, A7S, etc have this blasted thing show up whenever a face can be recognized. The "solution" has been to turn off face recognition and press record in camera. Without recording in camera, the hdmi out defaults to smoothing on again. I'm wondering, how many people do this and just haven't noticed it happens? Now that I've seen it and will be looking for it, I'm afraid it will drive me bonkers. OR do people just hit record in the camera to disable it?

My real question is, what about those of us who want to do this simply because we want to record longer durations than the internal recording allows? What happens when my A7S reaches 30 min and stops recording internally? Does everyone's face suddenly go all waxy? And what about trying to use external recording to prevent overheating on the smaller A5100? Hitting record on the camera isn't an option because it will build up heat too fast to even make it to 30 minutes most of the time. Is there another solution I'm not aware of? 

Thanks- yes, OMG, of course you didn't like the Sony colors!!! The S-log on the A7S is the wooooorst!

I've been using this camera for about a year now, and I stopped fiddling with Slog after 1 week. I stuck to Cine picture styles for flat images until I realized even that was overkill for most corporate talking heads and events (film making is another story). I've been shooting with PP off for 9 months now and haven't missed it- the color is just like any other Sony to my eyes, and my test alongside the A5100 last night proved this to me. Its a shame you gave up on it so quickly!

Anyway, I'm going to look into this more. I see the waxy face bug, but they already addressed and fixed it with the RX camera. I'm going to see if I can't find a workaround in the mean time and perhaps a proper fix is around the corner. Thanks for the suggestions!

So, someone on another forum told me he's been using his a5100 with a Ninja for a while now, and says he reliably shoots well over 30min speeches at a time with no problems. The internal battery even lasts a heck of a lot longer without running the internal encoder! 
He has not noticed any extra noise when using the HDMI out to record- where can I read more about that? Is that really a thing? He admitted to not having done a controlled experiment, but he did send me a sample of something he shot with it in an auditorium with available light, and it didn't seem noisy to me at all. 
However.... upon closer inspection, I DID notice what might be the waxy skin thing. I can't tell if its just bad youtube compression, but the subject's eyes and hair seemed sharper than her skin. I probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't read about this elsewhere, but her skin looked unrealistically smoothed out.
In a nutshell, there appears to be a bug that causes the skin smoothing feature to default to ON unless face detect is turned off. But even then, when not recording, it still defaults to ON when using the HDMI out. Its described in detail in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6GVm1Ke2dQ

His solution in the video? Hit record on the camera and it will respect your setting to OFF. Problem is, what happens if I can't record on the camera as well because it will overheat? And even if it doesn't, what will happen to the video when the camera stops recording at the 30 min mark? Will it go back to smoothing the skin? My goodness, Sony needs to fix this! I don't know yet how many cameras are affected by this bug, he claims in the video that a firmware update to the RX series fixed it so maybe a fix is around the corner?

Meanwhile, I did a quick test with the A7S and A5100 to see if the colors are comparable. Pretty darned close! I'm not sure what Ebrahim was saying about the color science of the A7S being unique to that model, these match really really well, better than I expected considering I was using 2 totally different lenses on each. Could be that since the A5100 was released after the A7s, they used the same color science and codec because that was the "latest" in the lab at the time (which explains why it also had the XAVCS codec before the a6000), but I'm inclined to think that Sony is pretty consistent with their coloring. 
Ebrahim, were you perhaps using Slog or a picture profile? I turned that off since the 5100 doesn't support it, put both on standard and dialed down the same settings in both. Set the same Kelvin value, and viola! Matching footage! 
Now I just need to tackle this HDMI out issue.

This seems to be a highly opinionated and somewhat subjective post. 
As far as colors, the A7S color to my eyes easily beats the GH4 - I'm still a fan first and foremost of Canon colors, but the A7S offers me a close enough second that I don't miss it, and I've never been a fan of Nikon's green cast color science. To each their own, I know a lot of people who love their Nikon colors, but its never been my style, and most of the people I work with feel the same. That being said, I've never had my A7S overheat- I'm not shooting in the middle east, but even covering an event in a baseball stadium for 5+ hours, my camera never overheated. Granted I rarely left it on for the full 30 min clip recording, but this is the first I've heard of it even being a concern! And it was running for 3.5 of those hours on a sizeable Sony camcorder battery with an adapter that I built. So, longevity of battery is a non issue for me. The Atomos can run on the same batteries, I believe, so I'm not worried there either.

In fact, reading about your complaints with color science being unique to the A7s, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps you have a faulty unit! I've never heard of the colors being unique (many youtube tests showing it getting along almost identical color-wise with an A6000 side-by-side) or units overheating! Oh, are you talking about Slog or something to that effect? Yes, that is unique. But turn picture profile off? It looks like most Sony footage. At least, to me. I just got my A5100 to tinker with, so I'll see for myself how well they match. 

Thanks! I actually just bought a used A5100 from another forum. Anyone want to buy a couple of GH2s or a Canon Rebel?

Ok, see, this is stuff I need to know about. For real, no in body NR? Not as concerned about it on the A7S, but if I have to push the A5100, this could get annoying. Anything else like that I might not be aware of? I've heard something about a skin smoothing bug in certain model cameras that only turns off when recording is also enabled in the body, but I can't seem to find any conclusive information on this. What else should I know about?

There's merit to that logic, but I really really (and I can't stress enough REALLY) don't like matching Panny colors to anything else. It may be simple and less burden at the event, but its just not worth the headache in post to make it look good together. At least, not for me. Whatever I'm shooting with needs to at least be the same color science (which is why I've been shooting with 2 GH2s instead of throwing in my Sony with 1). But if I have to pick which color science to go with, I think I prefer the Sony.
Anyway, when I show up to do long-form recording, my GH2 is almost never naked. In order to make it through a 2+ hour event like a concert, I usually have it attached to an external battery supply and at least one coupled with an audio recorder. That means a cage or rig, or at the very least a tricked-out flash bracket on each. The Ninja can actually double as the audio recorder so that just replaces a component instead of adding one. 

As far as overheating- The a6000 supposedly does not, and the A5100 users have said using an external recorder and/or battery supply stops the overheating as well. So, no- it seems like "all Sonys overheat" is somewhat of an overexaggeration, and in my case specifically, unless someone gives me reason to believe otherwise, it sounds like my plan will work!

::scootches over and pats seat next to him:: 
Hop aboard! 

I forgot to comment on this- I already have all of that. Years of glass manually adaptable Samyang, Nikon, EOS and vintage glass (EOS even works electronically with Image Stabilization via $99 adapter!) are already in my arsenal.  And lights don't really change from camera to camera. As far as shooting photos (where I want more expensive AF lenses made for the camera), I've actually discovered how much I really like Minolta A-mount glass. Sony makes an official adapter (since they bought Minolta in 2007 and actually still make A-mount cameras as well) that works surprisingly well with those. I have a 70-210 f/4 that looks amazing on my A7S, focuses fast and accurately with the adapter like a native lens, and only cost me $60 from KEH. You're right, camera body shouldn't be your primary expense. Thankfully it isn't, and I'm actually looking to change my existing infrastructure which I already own and can bring along!

ROFL- I know, right? What a crazy market this is! I didn't even mention the 15+ stops of DR that the Sony is capable of- I know, not all of that range gets recorded in the 8bit 4:2:0 codec (or 4:2:2 if external), but with a decent bitrate I'm finding it very easy to grade and push, much more than my Panny footage.

I'm more than pleased with the IQ and sharpness out of my A7S, it looks to me like 4k downsampled to 1080, which I think is exactly what its doing internally (That's why we keeping seeing the term "full sensor readout" thrown around- the sensor is a native 4k size with no pixel binning, as I understand it. And this is unique to this camera). That being said, even if that isn't good enough for you, the camera does output 4k so an external recorder downsampling it to 1080p prores or some high quality codec couldn't hurt either, and be doing it in real time!

Anyway, my point is, I'm keeping the A7s. That was never up for debate. The question is, can I practically replace my GH2 setup for long form recording. I think I can, but I was hoping to hear from people who've done this before.

Interesting. What camera are you comparing it to? I never really liked the skin tones out of my Panasonics, I was just OK with it because the IQ was so much better than anything else I was using at the time. I think I prefer the skin tones on my Canons the most, but that footage was awful in every other way. The Sony A7s is the closest image I've seen that gives me acceptable skin tones (to my eyes at least) while still offering a phenominally sharp and clear image. I'm not expecting the A5100 to be able to produce the same IQ as the A7s, but for multi-cam shoots, I just care that the colors will be easy to match and that it will be "good enough" for a second angle. At some point in the future, if I can afford it, I'd propbably replace it with another A7s (or A9 or whatever else comes out!). I never tried to match my GH2 color to my Sony, but after attemping to match a Canon to my GH2, I'm not looking forward to trying. Panasonic has their own mojo of coloring. Which is cool, as long as you aren't trying to quickly grade it along other types of cameras. I either want to shoot 2 Sonys, or 2 GH2s. This is my dilemma.

On that note, how much are you interested in selling? I found someone on another forum selling for a pretty good price, hope they still have it.

I'm really not interested in the current 4k cameras. Even if just to downsample to 1080p, its a workflow that is entirely unnecessary. The 1080p in the A7S is already a 4k resample internally. When I want top quality, that's what I'd go for. When I'm shooting multi-cam events, I'm more interested in ease of use/workflow for lining up multi-cam than I am looking for the super-sharpest detail (its going to end up on a website or DVD archive). As long as its moire free and not noisy in dim light, the clients love that it doesn't look like a camcorder (which a lot of my Pany footage does). In fact, for a while I preferred my "unhacked" G6 footage to the GH2s because the files were more manageable and the GH2 ones didn't have more detail that was appreciable to the clients!

BTW, as for the comment on Panasonic being smaller:

If anything, I'd prefer the larger body of the Panasonic for the better ergonomics. But I can deal with the Sony as a B cam and work around the buttons and touch screen when I need to. The ergonomics on my A7S as an A cam are good for me. This tiny  model supports XAVC-S 50mbit, supposedly blends well with A7 colors and costs about as much as a GH2 does, so I can trade it in and break even hopefully.

Why? Have you had a bad experience with the A7S? I'm gathering a lot of nay sayers are referring to experiences with Sony's older cameras like the Nex5 which was infamous for overheating. The A7s? Not so much. I actually tried to find an example on various forums of people complaining about overheating, and it seems that all I can find are ones confirming that it DOESN'T do that!

That seems highly subjective. I hated the remote app on my G6 and GH3, but the Sony remote is not only more capable and reliable (the Panny one crashed after a few minutes without fail), they also have their own API so you can actually write your OWN remote app that works the way YOU want! The Pannys are not necessarily smaller, the A5100 practically fits in the palm of my hand and has a smaller footprint than a GH2. And Sharper? Dude, have you *SEEN* the A7S footage? It puts my GH2's sharpness to shame (and its hacked for bitrate)!

Part of me feels like I'm somewhat playing devil's advocate because I DO very much have an emotional attachment to years of shooting Panny. But I'm reading over what I wrote here, and I think the love affair might be over. I don't think I see the value in them anymore!

But the Sony looks so much better to me, and can handle uncontrollable lighting much better, which is a common problem to events. I've had to push my GH2s past 1000 ISO to expose events properly, and the image just isn't pleasant. Sure, a B-cam APS-C Sony won't have the amazing low light of the A7S, but I believe they do a better job than the GH cams do!

This whole thing just started because yesterday I brought out my GH2s for a gig, and I really didn't like it anywhere near as much as my Sonys. If I'm just being crazy, I'll stick with what I'm doing, but I feel like I can do better.

Currently I own the following cameras: Sony A7S, 2 GH2s (one black, one silver), and a Canon 550D.

I really like using the Sony and their colors look nicer to my eyes, but I keep the pair of GH2 cams to cover events like lectures, debates, concerts, events, etc. The fact that I happen to own two of them and they can record for unlimited clip lengths makes them worth keeping around for those jobs. But lately I really feel like I prefer my Sony footage and have been seriously considering selling them off in favor of a Sony-centric setup.

Here's my thinking-out-loud conversation I'm having in my head (excuse the run on nature of it, this is how I think)
In order to make this work, I'd need unlimited recording on the Sony. I already have a homemade power supply that can feed the A7S for 3-4 hours without a battery change, but I'd need an external recorder to get around the 30 min clip length. It looks like the Atomos Ninjas go cheap now (likely because everyone wants 4k recorders), well under $300 if used. I could sell one of my GH2s for around that I think, and replace it with a Ninja 2 or Ninja Star, and effectively use it for the things I used the GH2 for.

But then I'm left with one Sony and one GH2 for multi-cam event stuff, and I'm not too keen on color matching Panny and Sony. Assuming there's no way in heck I can afford a second A7S right now, what's the most affordable B-cam that will match up well? An A6000? Didn't the A5000 actually offer XAVC-S before the A6000 got it in an update? Those seem very affordable, but could I get one for the price of selling my other GH2? Not sure if I'm even barking up the right tree yet.

Then there's the issue of buying an additional Atomos for the other Sony (do the a5000/a6000/etc even do HDMI recording out?) so I can continue to get unlimited recording length. That Canon T2i has been collecting dust, I feel like I can sell regardless of what else I do now. I absolutely don't use it anymore and won't miss it. Looks like if I'm lucky I can get $275-300 for it with the kit lens. Maybe even throw in a spare battery or something. That should over the other recorder. Then all I need to do is build another extended power supply like I did for the first Sony (thank goodness they use the same batteries).

It would be weird for me, going all-in with Sony after owning so many different cameras for so long. But what do you guys think? Am I being crazy or does this seem like a good idea?

I guess more specifically what I am trying to determine is, what's the most affordable Sony camera that can match the colors of the A7S while still being at least as good as a GH2 in IQ? Preferably one that I can get for around the same price as a GH2, if that isn't ridiculous to expect. And if so, can that model feed an external recorder for unlimited recording?

Found a video on youtube of a guy showing Canon cameras being powered by the same 9v batteries I'm trying to use. Canon uses the same voltage batteries as Sony and I'd assume have similar operating ranges- So far it seems that Canon and Panasonic cameras have successfully been powered by 9v batteries for extended periods of time. Does that mean its relatively safe to assume I can use a 9v battery on an A7s?

The A7s batteries are similar in voltage to the GH ones (7.6v), and we know a GH camera can be operated safely at 9v. In fact, if less than 8.4v, it won't turn on unless it is a chipped battery, so we know there is an operating range that is safe for the camera. 

But with the A7s, I'm not sure if the range is the same. Someone volt meter tested the official AC adapter and found 8.4v (even though it says 7.6v on the adapter). If the camera is designed to accept 8.4v while operating on AC adapter, and 7.6v internal batteries, is it safe to assume that it is the same operating range as a GH1/2/3/4 camera, and a 9v battery supply is just fine?

I own a lot of battery backs for powering my Gh2, would love to use these on my Sony. 

You could also consider a G6, which will award you 60p for slomo and a proper full-sized mic jack, as well being just as affordable (if not more so) than the options listed above. Unless you just don't want to go with interchangeable lenses at all.

I am not. US of A. 

Hey, no fair. I was going to mention MY G6 is for sale! Its a great camera, but hard to find people who know what it is outside of forums like this one. Need to sell it to pay off some bills, hopefully someone could use one (or two?) around here!

Is there a place on this forum appropriate to post gear I'd like to sell that others might be interested in? I don't want to post it out here and disrupt the conversation of the forum!

Just figured it out would be a shame to hit ebay if someone here is interested first.

I know I'm a little bit late to this party, but I just wanted to add that I think DSLRs in general are on their way out, even in photography. Its just that no one told the photographers yet. 

Relevant article:

http://techcitement.com/hardware/the-obsolescence-of-the-dslr-camera/

Adorama has A7II pre-ordering at pretty amazing prices as of this morning:

http://www.adorama.com/searchsite/default.aspx?searchinfo=ILCE7M2*/B&emailprice=t&j=Email112614SonyNPA&utm_term=Search&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Email112614SonyNPA&utm_source=RSYS

$1697 body only and just shy of $2k for body + kit.