benjolino

I don't mind as it isn't personal/ad hominem...forcing everyone to defend their opinions is the most efficient education you can get. I know this is a forum for low-budget hackers and my urging people to upgrade out of that miasma will run into a lot of resistance. But it's good for you...do you think if you become a successful filmmaker you will still be using DSLRs?


As a truly great filmmaker once wrote, "That's a consumer mentality, not a filmmaking one." ;)

The Atomos and Odyssey recorders double as field monitors, so not that much of a PITA. Plus having the recorder be external lets a thousand flowers bloom in that sector...you can get any recorder you want, at any price, with whatever features and media you want. And it's quite standard at the C500 tier to have external recorders, even though some of them clip directly onto the camera (e.g. for the F55 and Epic) rather than hook up somewhere else via cable, which can be better ergonomically (as counterbalance, as a monitor, etc.). Generally higher budget productions want redundancy in digital recording which this enables at full quality. If the recorder maker is charging a lot for firmware and media, that's an opportunity for a competitor. When the camera maker fashions themselves a monopoly in RAW recording and media for their camera, as most have, that forces the customer to pay. And you're criticizing Canon for this? You have never bought a professional camera is all.



Your own chart tests just showed the C300 easily handing the 5D3 RAW its head on moire and resolution...and that was just with the convenience internal codec. The C-series image is superior to the 5D3 ML RAW hack in all but bit depth...but with Canon Log and one-touch custom white balance you have to be a flatly incompetent shooter to get banding on the C series image. The 12 stops of DR at base ISO (the more useful 850 on the C-series rather than the 5D3's 100) is the same.

But anyway, that's a Canon product! :D


Let's take each contestant in turn:


Blackmagic Production Camera - 4K and global shutter, free copy of RESOLVE 10

You're complaining bitterly about external recorders, which add value, but are quite happy needing external batteries, which add little. The design of this body is intended to look "Apple cool" rather than be professionally functional...there is no EVF, no XLRs, no ND's or IR filter even with a huge unused flange area, a miserable glare-filled touchscreen that doesn't articulate, we don't know whether the firmware will have absolute basics like reformatting the drive so you aren't stuck if you forgot and don't have a computer, no custom white balance for ProRes, unknown low light, no HFR/overcrank, inconsistent EF lens support, hand-held shooting at least arguably impractical, potential fan noise, SSDs required even for ProRes. We don't know all the catches with this camera, although it is the most promising on your list, because...it isn't here yet and they haven't even posted sample images. So it's not really a contestant until we can buy one in the shop and evaluate it...who knows when that will be?

5D Mark III raw recording from full frame sensor internally to CF card - show me a competitor to that!

Have to rely on hacked firmware, try explaining the loss of a $5000 shooting day based on such a cunning plan. Cumbersome workflow, poor downsampling leads to some moire and loss of resolution, have to constantly offload expensive CF cards to laptop storage, have only one CF slot whose pins can easily break rendering camera unusable, and there is no redundancy in the RAW recording, just the one CF slot. Requires all the DSLR rigging contraptions to make it work for video, no NDs, poor audio on 1/8th" jack, audio will require manual alignment with each and every video clip, limited record time depending on CF card, no HFR/overcrank, ~2MP max resolution in RAW, not all of those distinguishable. Still, it's arguably the best of your list, with great low-light, full frame look, excellent lens support, and stills. But hey it's a Canon product and they are evil money-grubbers and it was only the heroic hackers that are to thank.

FS100 and Speed Booster - incredible low light performance and flexibility with the lens mount plus 1080/60p

Poor resolution as per your charts, and the low light performance is nowhere near as good as the C100...the color all washes away. Needs ND and IR filters, poor plastic build and ergonomics (why the EVF on the top of the camera rather than the side as everyone else does?), onboard codec only AVCHD 8 bit 420 and no better than C100 internal. At least this is a camera that was designed for video, but it has been superseded by the FS700 which is a worthy candidate and if you need overcrank rather than low-light I would recommend the FS700 instead. Although...shock and horror...the FS700 will require an external recorder...No!!!...to record its full 4K resolution. Sony must be at least as evil as Canon.

Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera - ProRes internally for $999! Form factor a GF1. What's not to like?

Miserable little sensor with plenty of moire and false color artifacting because there is no OLPF and no oversampling. Just a hobbyist toy with dinky toy lenses, something fun for people to carry around. And still vaporware again. I would much rather have the Sony RX100, with its larger higher resolution sensor, 60fps, and far lower price and pocketability, and in fact I do have one.

GH3 - 1080/60p at 50Mbit, 24p at 72Mbit ALL-I - does your C100 do that for $6000? No

I like to say that color science/skin tone arguments are the last refuge of a fanboy, but in Panasonic's case, I have to say that their color science is dismal. Maybe fixable to some extent in post. At least in contrast to the Blackmagic MFT offerings all the MFT lenses will work well on these bodies, but those widdle wenses have no future, an electronically working EF adapter is expensive, and there is no hack for the GH3 yet to get a better picture out of it...you need an external recorder just like on the 5D3. But I would rather have one of these than one of the small-sensor BMD cams. The GH2 is still a great value camera for the beginner, just don't go crazy on lenses.

Not to mention STILLS on 5D3 and GH3

Yes get a 5D3 for stills! Or a D800 for better res/DR. I am not a Canon partisan, but I have settled on EF mount as my personal standard and don't regret it.

Blackmagic MFT 2.5K camera - beautifully cinematic and Speed Booster compatible

All of the problems I listed for the upcoming BMD 4K and Pocket cams rolled into one...a worthless doorstop that has been breathlessly hyped by a few online camera pimps (some of whom never disclosed that BMD had compensated them for their reviews, which is an FTC rule violation in the USA). The term "RAW" made people delirious, but this is a tiny-sensor camera streaked with rainbows of moire and miserable ergonomics, it never shipped (even to you Andrew!) and the few who got an EF version (smarting now a 4K version is supposedly about to appear) generally didn't shoot RAW with it anyway. It was good for its shaking up the industry more than its being a useful tool...I doubt the C100 + Ninja 2 would be as cheap as it is if the BMCC hadn't ever appeared. But if given one I would hand it to the intern to shoot BTS with as I think most unbiased people with a better option would. I might rather shoot with a GoPro Hero3 Black than one of these, at least that sensor is high-res and oversampled.

KineRaw mini (2K raw for $3k)

A lab experiment, apparently suffers from awful jello, but somehow got Dan Chung to champion it. Not available in the West probably for good reasons.

I am comfortable with the C100 and Ninja 2 as absolutely superior to all cheaper options currently available, on price, image quality, and overall ergonomics and workflow. The main improvements to be made on it are higher frame rates, 4K resolution, and a better built-in EVF, but I think it will remain a terrific 1080p camera for several years to come. I suggest people rent one and get comfortable with it and decide if it's worth struggling with hacks, kludges, and Rube Goldberg contraptions...or if it would be better to just focus on the composition and story and how to get the most out of each shot, knowing that the image is going to be fine at the end of the day. And as I said, price the total cost of ownership of a complete ready-to-shoot system out and you will discover Canon is really making stepping up into pro cinema accessible just like they did with the 5D2 and XL1 in the eras before this.

Thanks for hearing me out, I know it's not a popular opinion here, but it's a damn accurate one. :)

though i´m a 5d mark3 owner, i absolutely agree with you. for the most paid things the 5d mark raw is not a solution. even if the hack gets stable. the data rates alone make it impossible to use for documentary shooting for example. i´m really happy that this hack exists and i can play around with it but let´s see if it becomes a good way to work. i doubt it. 

i also think you all should not blame canon so much. it´s a normal strategy for companies to offer different product for different prices and costumers. for example i know somebody how works for bmw in the development. the 316, the 318 and the 320i have the same engine, they just crippled the lower end engines and sell them cheaper. it´s more efficient to produce a higher number of engines and make them less strong for lower end cars, the to produce 3 different engines. all bmw would be much more expensive if they would produce 3 different engines. even if canon  would would use the same sensor in the 600d and the mk3, i would still buy the mark3, because i want a magnesium body and not a plastic camera.

for example the canon ef 50mm 1,4 and the ef 50mm 1,2 are both very good lenses. but the 50mm 1,2 has a much better build quality and a bit better image and it costs 5 times the price. but if you work every day with this lens and earn money with it, then you maybe wanna buy it. i don´t start thinking is this really 5 times better then the 50 1,4? or is canon a greedy bitch because of this? i just think about if the things, this pro lens offers, is worth the more money for me personally. it´s easy like that.

i mean who would think the 5d mark raw is the right tool for one when he works every day with it? and i don´t mean making test shots and playing around. this is important to do and i´m really thankful that it´s been done, but if i can get a nearly the same image quality then the mark raw with a proress codec, and a good handling of the camera and the post workflow. this doesn´t sound too bad for me.

it´s really funny that everybody buys canon and complains about them at the same time... lol

 If people are bored and want to pick a fight with you I suggest ignoring them entirely.

you are absolutely right. it´s a waste of time.

is there anything new known of this vertical lines phenomenon. i have seen them in a lot of videos when the focus is at infinity and the sky is grey. for example in this video at min 2:17. i wonder if this is reproduce able. because i have seen also videos which have no vertical lines in the same conditions.

https://vimeo.com/66480704

And now you play the disingenuous troll card, "what?  who?  me?"  

 

They never just own it.

you have to read between the lines you dump. i think i can say my opinion on this forum and i dont give a f... about what you are thinking. if i think this lens is not good for what i´m doing, don´t you think i can say that? open your eyes and look at the edges of the frame. what happens there might be ok for you but not for me. buy yourself some glasses hobbit.

Then be gone, troll.

thanks for the comment. i´m soooo sorry not to have the same opinion than you........

i don´t really like the anamorphic lens. there is too much weakness for me, especial in the corners. the quality of the 5d mk raw is amazing but i prefer modern lenses which perform really god. i don´t need this nostalgic retro trash look...

That argument is not an argument at all. Whether or not MOVi was some sponsored marketing ploy or not, the raw hack for 5D3 wasn't even known to work at that time...just FYI. The big surprise he didn't announce was Blackmagic's 4K camera.

i know that it wasn´t known at that time but now it´s the right time to say that the raw hack is huge and not this overpriced gyro rig...

it´s really funny. MÖVI is the biggest thing in film industry since the 5d mk2. compared to the raw hack for the mk3 it´s really a joke. laforet should say this. or he will loose his credibility. i think it´s really a ego thing. for sure the 1dc was until now a very good camera, besides it´s very high price, but now it lost a lot of it´s worth and if you are a 1dc owner, for some people it´s hard to say, "ok maybe i spend a few dollar too much for it". but i think people like phillp bloom and vincent laforet should really stay neutral because it´s their job and a lot of people listen to them. maybe not to laforet. he takes money from manufactors. and since the mövi thing nobody really listens to him:)

I have no problem working with Cinestyle on the 5D3, and with just a touch of green/magenta correction I can get it lined up fairly well with Canon Log (Cinelock) C100/Ninja 2 footage. ISO 10000 on the internal codec is significantly cleaner than 12800 in the same way 2500 and 5000 are...it may be in-camera NR that you can't turn off, or some other mechanism, but the pattern is consistent and I shoot that way accordingly. The 5D3 clean HDMI out to the Ninja 2 does not display the pull-down ISO pattern as strongly so you might be right in that case.

 

The A/B we are all waiting for is the absolute *best* you can do "officially" vs. the best you can do with the ML hack. I will test that once all the bugs are shaken out of the hack and we know what works best. The best I can get out of a 5D3 at this time officially is clean HDMI out to the Ninja 2 using ProRes 422 HQ on the Ninja, Cinestyle with default settings on the 5D3, and then applying NR (I use Neat Video) and a LUT (I use Pomfort) in post. I don't see banding after grading the Cinestyle in typical use. Even so, that image is blown away by the C100 in Cinelock to the Ninja 2 in every capacity (other than full-frame DoF and angle of view of course).

 

I have no delusions that the C100/Ninja 2 will be displaced by the 5D3 RAW output in absolute IQ. That sensor and system is just purpose-built and far superior for filmmaking. I think a lot of people overestimate the value of RAW, perhaps egged on by Jannard. For stills of course I only shoot RAW but that's because the only other choice (JPEG) sucks and RAW stills aren't onerous. Direct-to-ProRes HQ with a log gamma is an absolutely credible option and anyone skillful enough to get decent exposures from pre-Log DSLRs will have no trouble at all with that codec. The hassle with RAW is so intense in comparison to just capturing hours of ProRes on an SSD and loading it directly into your NLE ready to cut that it better completely blow it away even if the best possible settings and workflow is used with the compression.

 

The main losses for the HDMI 8 bit 422 are going to be chroma detail (422 and 444 are VERY similar to the eye, even for keying work..it's the 420 used in the internal codecs that truly sucks) and maybe a touch of DR. 8 bits with the Cinestyle gamma is not far from representing with high fidelity the full DR of that sensor on most ISOs in practice...see DxoMark's reports on all the read noise of the 5D3 sensor in stills mode. The main hit resolutionwise is going to be done at the downsampler in-camera taking the 22MP to 2MP. If you use a crop 1:1 pixel mode, you will get a ton of sensor noise and probably some aliasing/stair-stepping the OLPF doesn't fully blur out. We aren't recording 24 RAW 22MP stills in a second on this camera...there is damage done in both pathways.

 

What I would like as a working professional for whom any gains from RAW are likely overkill for a 5D3, is a nice internal codec from ML. If MJPEG is the best they can do, OK, make it a good one with 422 and an easy workflow in post. If that, plus the CF cards needed, is overall cheaper and better in practice than getting a second Ninja 2 I'm happy. Will be more compact to just use the Zacuto loupe and hopefully not require too much card swapping while shooting.

i really don´t know what you are talking about. ML is able to record RAW to CF cards. they are not able to process something else to the card. i would also like to see a mk3 doing really good 422 proress on a cf, for better workflow. and i would also like the sun to shine the whole year, but this will not happen. what has happened is that ML IS ABLE TO RECORD RAW WITH THE 5D MK3

here i found an adaptor extension for cf slot. if i could connect this to a cf--->sata adaptor, i could use ssd drives with my 5d mark3. that would be great!!!##

http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/