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Everything posted by tobyloc

  1.     I think, looking at Andrew's comparison, the Kine has more DR, probably 1.5 stops more at (and this is key) low ISOs, i.e. ISO400 where they both perform with little noise in the shadows. However the 5D is about a stop cleaner as you bump up the ISO so my guess would be if you ran Andrew's test shot where you can see the limits of both cameras, the highlights and shadows at the same time but this time shot them both at ISO1600 that Kine advantage in DR might disappear because the shadows would be noisier.   This I think is partly the advantage of a full frame sensor, it tends to be a stop better than a S35 sensor in low light as it collects a stop more light over it's surface. That's why I personally like FF sensors more than S35, because you can chose to have the exact same DoF as a S35 camera by stopping down one more stop on the lens at no noise penalty BUT you also have an option for shallower DoF if you'd like AND crucially, lenses that are a stop slower are cheaper, sharper, easier to make and if you're lucky come with IS.
  2. I get the analogy, the thing is if we compare these cameras to the competition - Nikon are charging a premium for removing video, BM are charging 90% less for not including stills. Big difference and that difference determines why people are or aren't upset.
  3. [quote name='Bruno' timestamp='1351109452' post='20243'] Btw, comparing the image quality of a GoPro3 even at 4k with a 5D3 is just stupid. [/quote] Why is it stupid? Considering the cost difference and size of camera the comparison SHOULD be ridiculous but it's not, it seems the GoPro will actually outresolve the 5DMark3, shoots to a similar log profile if you're used to cinestyle and has a similar bitrate at 45Mb/s long gop. DoF, lenses, colour, manual control and low light obviously go to the 5D. Rolling shutter, resolution, slow motion, robustness, water resistance, portability, weight all go to the GoPro3. They're very different tools and they're not supposed to compete but the fact a cheap action cam beats it in some areas where it shouldn't should be embarassing for them. I'm glad Andrew put them under the cosh a bit, though it's a shame they got away with the 25p bit, they should be made to answer how a music video can be sped up to 25p or a wedding can be filmed under house lighting at 50hz or why it's the only camera I know of that's remotely taken seriously that doesn't shoot 25p, including all Canon's other cinema cameras. That they suggest in that answer that they're listening to customers is a joke because everyone has asked them for 25p from the day it was announced, including Shane Hurlbut.
  4. [quote name='Mei Lewis' timestamp='1346919218' post='17428'] Your diagram and the sentence: Is wrong. The C300 has a _larger_ sensor than the Black Magic. You're getting confused about resolution, sensor size and what 'crop' means. Similarly your resolution comparison is flawed - of course the Black Magic shows more details, you've effectively used a longer lens. [/quote] Actually no, sorry, you've misread. Andrew says "raw image" not "sensor size", he's quite clear about that, the image you get from BMC is larger than what you get from C300. My 5D has a much bigger sensor than the C300, that doesn't mean it resolves more detail in it's 1080P file, in fact it resolves much less as it resizes (badly) in camera to 1080. I believe you're wrong here too, I believe the whole test chart has been shot so the BMC will be using a wider lens in the test shot because of it's smaller sensor. The reason it looks bigger to you is because the image is bigger, in that example it has not been scaled down to be the same size as the C300 image, they are both being viewed at 100% and it's not the whole image, just a crop at 100%. To be more clear, I suspect you think the same lens has been put on both cameras so the BMC camera is effectively zoomed in more, I don't think this is the case, the BMC has a wider lens on so they have the same field of view, but as we're comparing a 2.5k image at 100% to a 1080p image at 100% the 2.5k image will look more zoomed in as it's larger. if the images were uncropped you'd be able to see all of the test chart in both shots. Hope that helps.
  5. [quote name='John Brawley' timestamp='1344522915' post='15204'] It's not the sensor overheating. You can usually see this kind of fixed pattern noise when you lift the blacks of the camera beyond normal. Now the camera has a wide dynamic range. You're seeing the point where the dynamic range is bottom out and intend of black you're getting the black calibration of the sensor. Now this CAN be exacerbated by very hot cameras and hot environments. I've seen it on Canon dSLRs when they've been on and operating contioniously. IN this case I DONT think this is what's happening. I think what you're seeing is where the blacks run out because the sensor has run out or DR and you're left with that kind of noise. It's no longer useful shadow information. In the grade I probably should have paid a bit more attention and crushed the blacks by half a percent till it disappeared. This shot is a very difficult shot. It's backlit and I'm trying to hold (largely succeeding) specular highlights, in an image that also has a lot of shadow. That's a huge ask of any camera. In a camera that was doing more processing in camera, you'd just have those values down there in the blacker than what the sensor can capture values turn to solid black. In a camera like this, you need to pay attention and remember to do it...or choose to leave it in for the marginal shadow information that's there in near black. That's as near as my LAY understanding of how it works. You get everything, including the marginal stuff normally truncated by other cameras. This is really a grading choice by me to leave more information IN than I probably should from a camera that gives you everything. Post is CRUCIAL to getting the most from this camera. jb [/quote] Nice one John, appreciate the response and tips on how to deal with the lows. Just not used to having a warts and all image I think, looking forward to how flexible the footage will be in post, I'm sure my editing times will quadruple just because I'll be having too much fun!
  6. [quote name='EOSHD' timestamp='1344345988' post='15050'] Thanks for that John. I don't mind film grain, the noise has a nice fine texture to it. I think some of the blacks would have been better off crushed a little bit in the grade to hide some of the more honest parts of the image :) It is good to see an honest image that gives a lot of options to work with in post and that is what we want as test footage. Thanks for uploading. PS to those who can't download, you need to be a Vimeo Plus member. [/quote] I really like the test footage and am really happy John has released us some more, much appreciated. I am also looking forward to the camera arriving but I am a little worried now, that noise in the car's shadow does not have a film grain to it, it's got lots of banding in it and looks pretty hideous. Looking at the file in quicktime player it's a bit brighter (qt gamma issue?) and more obvious, this is a screengrab: [img]http://www.eoshd.com/comments/uploads/inline/14175/5022e071ecf8e_BM_banding.jpg[/img] It's not in the other shadows so it is unusual, I'm not a techie but could that side of the sensor be overheating? This might be from the honest, sensor data with no noise reduction but noise reduction can't get rid of banding so I'd discount that. It's the kind of noise you might see on a 5D2 if you underexposed at high iso, and then raised in post, which worries me.
  7. I would eat the largest hat I could find, perhaps a sombrero, if Canon made a $5k, 4k sensor, 1080p camera with HDSDI, even without EOSRAW or 60P this year. It's basically the exact spec of the C300, they've made their bed with the C300 spec and they won't cannabilise it until this website is called SONYHD. They are not listening to consumers, prosumers or low budget commercial, music or indie film makers. They just announced a 4k DSLR, available for my future children to preorder, clearly aimed at low/medium budget film makers for $15,000 and it doesn't shoot 25P in 4K mode for god's sake. It wouldn't surprise me if RED had a dragon sensor scarlet before that comes out, which will negate it's only advantage over it - low light ability, every other measure it falls drastically short. On the other side, Sony have announced an insanely well spec'd and future proof camera for much less that addresses every single quibble users had with the FS100, forget the crazy slow motion and 12 bit 4K HD-SDI future output...it has BIGGER BUTTONS because about 8 people thought they were too hard to press while filming in oven gloves. The mentality between the two is stark. There are so many 5DMarkII owners, desperate to upgrade, that have been waiting for 3 years, that have saved or can now afford or justify spending $5k-$10k on their next level up camera and speaking as one, we're just having to accept it won't be a Canon. Canon have gone a different way (high end tv and cinema) and that's their perrogative that's not where the market explosion is and if I were a betting man I'd put all my chips on Sony's side as to who will make more money from video cameras in the next 2 years.
  8. [quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=572.msg3806#msg3806 date=1334242083] Have updated the article. Price is indeed a whopping $15,000 like C300. And for Europe, Russian and Asia - three quarters of the world - 25p is only in 1080p not 4k! Insane! [/quote] Oops, just saw this. Yes, it's insane, no other word is crazy enough.
  9. [quote author=Andrew Reid - EOSHD link=topic=572.msg3801#msg3801 date=1334241347] [quote author=tobyloc link=topic=572.msg3792#msg3792 date=1334240517] There's one more BIG 'ugly' if you happen to live on a certain continent called Europe and do anything that might be broadcast - no 25P in 4k, only in 1080P. Unless they change their specs or update it in firmware. It's not even an oversight, it's a complete lack of understanding or who would buy and use this camea. Sony have my money for the forseable future. [/quote] I think the press release is worded for the American market. This can't be true about 25p. Canon have always released world-cams which are PAL / NTSC. [/quote] I'm not sure, the Canon Europe press release seems quite clear and 25P is mentioned in the 1080P specs, they might just assume that's good enough. It should at least be fixable, just one more frame a second, but really, a european press release to film makers for a 4k camera that can't be used by them - is beyond ridiculous.
  10. There's one more BIG 'ugly' if you happen to live on a certain continent called Europe and do anything that might be broadcast - no 25P in 4k, only in 1080P. Unless they change their specs or update it in firmware. It's not even an oversight, it's a complete lack of understanding or who would buy and use this camea. Sony have my money for the forseable future.
  11. [quote author=bradleyg5 link=topic=569.msg3773#msg3773 date=1334225498] They can charge whatever they want, there is no competition at all. Full frame is not the same as super 35 or Micro 4/3rds you can't compare products. Saying they need to price against Sony is like saying the 1dx has to compete with the 7d price wise. The Panasonic and Sony cameras get absolutely slaughtered in low light and I have little doubt this camera will continue the trend. Although definite QQ no way I'm going to be able to afford that, I was hoping it would fall between the 5dIII and 1dx as well. No such luck. If the Cinema 1d doesn't have clean HDMI out though, that's pretty brutal. Hopefully you don't need a additional recorder to capture 4k footage. They should just put SATA 3 connections on these 4k Cameras, consumer SSD are going to be vastly faster/high capacity than whatever they can come up with. Those lens aren't going to be full frame I take it? Why are cinema lens typically zoom lens by the way? [/quote] I think you can compare full frame and S35/M43, you just have to bear their strengths and weaknesses in mind, as well as lens options. It's really only on the fast, wide angle or super shallow dof that full frame shows a clear advantage, in other areas it has a clear disadvantage. Many people prefer the S35 size. Also, Sony cameras definitely haven't been slaughtered in low light, 2 of the best 3 decent cameras for low light are Sony and the FS100 is the most sensitive of them all, the FS700 is supposed to be comparable. Otherwise agreed, Canon can charge whatever they think is right for the market, not that I think they're getting their prices right for the market, unlike Sony, but the 4K DSLR has a good feature set for a full frame camera, is actually less than I thought it might be (and probably less than they intended) and will interest many people. I've never really understood the cinema zoom obsession either, especially at the cost of T stop, but I imagine it's because cinema cameras are traditionally huge and hard to move around, so flexibility in focal length is important and they don't care about cost, it's a very different world to photography.
  12. @Tim: [quote author=Tim link=topic=444.msg2843#msg2843 date=1332487391] Andrew, you say: [quote][i]On actual 1080p resolution however they[/i] [Canon and Nikon] [i]are unfortunately as bad as each other.[/i][/quote] Are you just comparing the internal codec of both cameras or are you also including & comparing the D800's uncompressed HDMI out? Cheers [/quote] He means the true resolution of the camera, they say 1080P on them but it's a bit cheeky to call them that, it doesn't resolve 1080P lines of resolution. They could equally say it's 8K if the camera internally uprezed the image to 8k, but that wouldn't make it 8k! The 5d2 and 3 do around 700 lines of resolution which makes them look quite soft, the C300 does a lovely 1080 like the Alexa or a downrezed RED. The FS100, GH2 and Sony F3 do something inbetween, like 850 and look closer to C300 than 5d. The new Nikon's look like the Canons though I don't think there have been any resolution tests with them yet.
  13. Great article. Just to clarify on one of your earlier points though, I'm 99.9% sure the FS100 doesn't output 60p over HDMI even though it can record it internally, even the F3 can only do it over dual SDI. Did you buy that FS100 off ebay? I almost pulled the trigger on that one recently! lol
  14. [quote author=rj link=topic=218.msg1557#msg1557 date=1327698859] [quote author=tobyloc link=topic=218.msg1553#msg1553 date=1327684627] The Why video does NOT have very nice resolution [/quote] To my eyes it has better resolution than my 5D. You can tell by looking at the beard, skin wrinkles, hair and ground with rocks... Resolution is more than acceptable in this video. [/quote] We can only agree to disagree here. Resolution wise, Why looks just like 5D and not as good as a much cheaper, older, consumer camera - the GH2. I hope to be proved wrong as if I am the D4 ticks every box I want.
  15. The Why video does NOT have very nice resolution, on Vimeo in HD and Youtube at 1080, just compare it to something that does like good GH2 footage, it definitely looks softer. I downloaded the original 1080P file from Vimeo when they originally had it up (they've since taken it down), it is not as detailed as a GH2 or an FS100, whether it's as detailed as say a 5DII, I'm not sure, I'd probably say the same but it could be less, and remember the 5D video mode was an ill thought out by product on a stills camera over three years ago. Yes, the WHY video looks good, because it's shot quite well but it is by no means a detailed image, though there are a couple of shots that suddenly pop out as detailed shots... because they're obviously timelapses. Regarding the moire for Why, I'm not sure, they shot a lot of wide open shots that would hide aliasing/moire and they tend to appear in more man made materials rather than in nature where you don't have things like patterns and parallel lines so much.
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