Andrew Reid

Well Rich there's two sides to this, and maybe you are right. One possibility is that Blackmagic want to grab a share of the digital cinema market. Best way to do this is the pricing. Even though BMCC is really as good as a $15,000 camera, had they priced to match Canon they would have lost. At $3000, they are positioned to grab a share. It could be that the benefits of establishing themselves, giving themselves a foothold in the market were larger than the money they'd lose on the cameras. The other possibility is that electronics are getting cheap to produce, and Blackmagic already make a profit on their Hyper Deck Shuttle which is extremely keenly priced - that tells you that the image processing hardware to encode an uncompressed signal to ProRes is now affordable to produce in 2012. They may be aiming for the mass market in great quantities. If that is the case, a slim margin on the camera doesn't matter so much. I honestly would take the view that you can build this camera for $3000 and make a profit and I'd say the mark up on the other digital cinema cameras is insane.

I really don't see any logic in cancelling a pre-order, at all. People have waited this long, they should hold out. Even if you don't like the camera, they are so rare that it can be rented out to a film production as a B-cam, or indeed anybody who wants raw and can't afford a Red. You'd make your money back.

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1353617686' post='22139'] BMC what is the number...10000? How many waiting in the wings? How many GH2 people? How many 5D2/5D3 holders? How many Red holders? You'd be surprised how many would jump on the bandwagon...And so on. I'm not arguing about the 1DC - it is an incredible camera. There are pricing risks going forward. Alot of competition will be entering the scene. How about the "company" which is working on their 4K "dslr type" and may show it at NAB 2013? Has competition entered in the 5D3 space? Yep. Pricing will change as more 4K competition arrive. Canon won't be the only fish in the sea. Cheers. [/quote] DSLRs sell in quantities of millions. I find it hard to believe that only 20,000 of those millions are interested in the video mode. The market for DSLR video has a lot of different sub-sections - some point & shoot, some casual hobbyists, some students, some pros, some artists, some tourists, some... You get the idea. But as a whole, the need for Canon to keep pushing the feature-set and image quality at consumer price points is huge. So why haven't they done so? Because somebody at the top level (or somebody possibly poorly advised) is more interested in making huge margins on Cinema EOS products in the broadcast industry, which is a tiny niche compared to the consumer DSLR market, and somehow they think it is OK to halt any progress in the large market for the sake of concentrating on the Hollywood niche. It is not just DSLR video people that Canon aren't providing enough progress for - think of the poor photographers who have not seen a step forward in image quality from their APS-C sensors since the 7D 3 years ago!

DSLRs are not a niche. It is the mass market sales Canon should be more worried about. Since they chose to focus purely on photographers rather than videographers with their DSLRs and try to move the videographers up several price brackets, their bread & butter business holds very little appeal to me and many others. The film industry is changing, there's a lot of shooters out there working as freelance owner operators or as a small production team, and they're doing a good job and taking away business from established pros. The market for DSLR video is growing. You can't forget about the 1D X for even a minute. It is essential to the point I'm trying to make about the 1D C. You say the 1D C is produced in small volumes for a niche - hang on - all the major components (and most of the minor ones too, indeed 95% of the hardware) is mass produced in 1D X+ sized quantities. The 1D X is produced in huge quantities in comparison to any indie filmmaking tool. Canon are addicted to 'added value', 'segmenting the market' and other bullshit business strategies from a text book and they have severely taking their eye off the product itself... In my opinion. What I recommend is to get the 1D C on a finance deal and shoot 4K stock footage. A lot of demand for it. The camera will pay for itself. Which is just as well. Remember, my perspective is of an artist not a businessman. I want these tools to change the world and to enable masses of creativity. I am not interested in the mechanics and the process of a quick turnaround for a client. The C300 is perfect for that, but it doesn't interest me. Image quality does. Which is why I am no longer a Canon DSLR shooter when it comes to my cinema work.

Thanks for the analysis Per. Global shutter has a trade off in terms of dynamic range and noise which is why it is 11.5 stops. The high-speed readout reduces image quality. But in terms of everything else it is certainly seeming like a high end sensor in cinema terms. It is of the same generation of their Leica M sensor and likely shares a similar pixel design. It is this aspect of the sensor which has become most important. 2 stops of DR is a sacrifice I'd be willing to make for global shutter. The 16mm Ikonoskop which uses a CCD sensor with global shutter is also an option well below the price of the Sony F55. But this is a 2K camera, no Super 35mm sized chip and it doesn't have any high speed frame rates. Important to remember that we don't really know what the image quality or real world performance is of this sensor, so a lot of my article is speculative. This is a sensor which costs less than $1700. It's pretty good for the money. Yet to see what image quality is like. On paper it is high end.

[quote name='Leang' timestamp='1353582801' post='22105'] or can anyone justify the cost for this weird body scheme? [/quote] Like I say the firmware development R&D costs and re-wired circuitboard with a better heat sink do not in any way add up to doubling the 1DX's retail price.

[quote name='Bioskop.Inc' timestamp='1353593897' post='22118']Everyone bangs on about that Canon's profits are down, but they still made a profit & that's what they see.[/quote] Indeed their profits are down. Remind me of my digital cinema upgrade path from the 5D Mark III again....

[quote name='ScreensPro' timestamp='1353587260' post='22112'] The 1D-C is in a league of it's own, literally no peers. A large than s35 DSLR that shoots cinematic 4K video onto cheap media with cheap batteries. If you can't afford it, wait.... But don't hate on Canon because it's out of the league of the indie crowd, for now. New tech, especially in a niche market, will always cost a premium. [/quote] New tech? Aside from the sensor (which is from a $6000 camera not a $12,000 one) this is not new tech at all. There's nothing material or in the manufacturing of this camera that justifies the price tag. They could have made a healthy margin at $5k on this.

I believe with raw the image is de-bayered in post - i.e. in Resolve. You have ALL the colour data stored in the codec. Needless to say - very happy with the BMCC colour and skin tones so far!

Nice article. "Blackmagic company philosophy is to make cameras for the masses". Unlike Canon, who will eventually lose their share of the mass market if they keep up the current form.

Well here's a thing... Raw doesn't need as much processing as compressed footage. Yet GoPro have the processing power in their $400 camera to deal with 4K and 2.5K. The reason the Digital Bolex project has the affordable price tag it does (was it $2500 or so?) is because they're keeping it simple on the image processing side. I.e. raw. I see no reason why someone cannot buy this sensor in quantity, around $1200 per part like you say, add $200 worth of processors to the back of it and build a camera. $5000 retail on $2400 is a nice margin. To grab market share you need to be less comfortable and more aggressive, take a bit of a hit. I can honestly see this sensor in a 4K camera for $3500 in less than 1 year.

[quote name='FilmMan' timestamp='1353514109' post='22070'] Right on. You're having a lot of fun with these different cameras. By the way, check if any moire on some bikinis. My wife will hate me for that one. Cheers. :) [/quote] Bikinis in November in Berlin? Erm I will try my best :) We're going to do more studio based tests with proper actors. I'm bored of scenery.

The painful thing is the 1D C is a great artistic tool. A dream camera for me. Canon seem to be able to charge what they like and pros will not see it as a problem. Most of them rent any way. Now let's talk about the non-pro market. This is the one I am most interested in because of the philosophy that being a cinematographer should be like being a musician. You pick up the instrument and if you are talented you go far. A shame none of this talent will be picking up a 1D C. A shame Canon continue to look at professional niche markets with huge margins rather than changing the world. Changing the world seemed to work well for Apple's bank balance. I guess Canon just lack the imagination. Their profits are down. All I can say is... Good luck from now on.

Prices of 4K cameras will drop dramatically in the coming years. Canon better make the most of it! It really angers me that after democratising filmmaking with DSLRs, they stopped for 3 years before introducing this ridiculous upgrade path - $3000 5D Mark III ---> $6000 1D X ---> $12,000 1D C Which is not an upgrade path for us at all. Tired of the Rebels and 5D Mk II as a result my upgrade path went like this... Canon in the bin ---> $700 GH2 ----> $4000 FS100 ---> $3000 Blackmagic Cinema Camera They have completely forgotten about the enthusiast and consumer creative video market, indie filmmakers, convergence, owner-operators, the lot of 'em.

[quote name='cameraboy' timestamp='1353496557' post='22058'] bmc sensor is much better than CMV12000... it uses same Dual Gain Architecture technology as arri alexa sensor ([url="http://www.arri.com/camera/digital_cameras/technology/arri_imaging_technology/alexas_sensor.html"]http://www.arri.com/...xas_sensor.html[/url] ) and even in global shutter mode beats CMV12000 in DR ... [url="http://www.cmosis.com/products/standard_products/cmv12000"]http://www.cmosis.co...oducts/cmv12000[/url] [url="https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:JRC73fiWFzcJ:www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/db/products/datasheet/BR_pco_edge_104.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgqsjYmQdEfJnoyMTl-pLFu3dKvun56_EcxuZ26yKeCXVA_mrLsmbWGHlQXmTkPnm4HC-en85D5DN0U045fTm6tmDi1PTqR_yAKkLtZPKbJ7ezi31BbiZPu5r-wmIKMt59Db8lV&sig=AHIEtbQmi1jpDhZfnqPfcHpGpQFhB6bgnQ"]https://docs.google....fcHpGpQFhB6bgnQ[/url] [/quote] Interesting stuff about dual gain architecture (DGA). The Blackmagic Cinema Camera's scientific sensor shares this - how do we know? They should put it on the marketing material, that is a big thing. No wonder the highlights are so good. I think the industrial sensor industry has so much to offer cinema. Their main market is scientific because that is where the money is. Cinema cameras would be a smaller niche but they wouldn't stay niche for long with image quality and pricing like this.

I'm testing the Ikonoskop tomorrow :)

Got a reply back from the nice people at CMOSIS. [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]"As you can read in the our press release is the CMV12000 mainly targeting industrial vision alike application. This is mainly due to the presence of the global shutter architecture which is a requirement when capturing moving objects (like in production lines, traffic cameras…). The sensor has a global shutter only, not a rolling shutter. There's indeed an image quality trade-off when choosing for global shutter and this is mostly a penalty in dark noise and dynamic range compared to rolling shutter only sensors. [/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=3]However we see indeed that a lot of interest is coming from the broadcast industry as well because of it's resolution and reasonable pricing. I would rather not provide the full price list but can tell that the sensor sells for less than $1700. The exact reasons why the CMV12000 is so attractive is probably because there are not tot much alternatives but I guess that people like Blackmagic Cinema Camera can probably elaborate more on this."[/size][/font][/color]

[quote name='galenb' timestamp='1353471122' post='22039'] It couldn't be that one because as stated here: [url="http://www.eoshd.com/content/9060/the-new-leica-m-as-a-filmmakers-tool-an-interview-with-leicas-jesko-von-oeynhausen"]http://www.eoshd.com...-von-oeynhausen[/url] The sensor in the new M is a CCD. [/quote] It isn't a CCD. It is a CMOS. Interview clearly states that in first half. Are there any typos you are spotting?

[quote name='TC' timestamp='1353458535' post='22027']There is Convergent Design, Atomos, and AJA who all make hardware recorders - basically a camera without a sensor. They clearly all have the right expertise in high-speed signal processing. There is also Matrox, who don't make a recorder, but have a large range of video encoding hardware. Perhaps there is also another rich enthusiast like Jim Jannard, who realises that the parts you need to build a high-end video camera are largely commoditised and are available to order right now. All you need is to put them together in a box with a lens mount. [/quote] Very good point. If there is to be a challenge to the status quo it will be from exactly these kind of people.

I have bookmarked his forum. Great stuff thanks for sharing.

[url="http://www.eoshd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cmosis-CMV-12000.jpg"][img]http://www.eoshd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cmosis-CMV-12000.jpg[/img][/url] Above is a new scientific sensor by European company CMOSIS which has amazing potential in a cinema camera. [list=1] [*]Super 35mm / APS-C sized [*]4K raw at 12bit (90fps) and 10bit (150fps) [*]4:3 anamorphic 4,096 x 3,072 [*]Global shutter [/list] This part is ready to be mass produced and is available off the shelf.

I plan to do a 2nd version with the 2.5K scaled down to 1080p and everything full screen.

Most modern movies are shot at T5.6 for focus as well. It isn't about what era of filmmaking, it is about the practical realities of shooting.

Hero 3 at 4K is 15fps with a fish eye! Totally different kettle of, erm, fish. JVC... Not as cinematic and the 4K res when you view it at 1:1 level is smudgy. The sweet spot of glass is the centre crop. I don't see how the VG-900 has anything to offer from the full frame sensor over the 5D Mark III. The image is just not up to it.

Well said!