douglaurent

​of course the difference is extremely visible in this technical test, which by the way had to be done to show any difference because it was NOT visible in real world footage.  shooting many hours in many different light environments might bring up situations that show some banding in blue skies etc.  other than that, the shogun didn't seem to make the gh4 footage look different.

​if you multiply all options for basic camera settings, in-camera-settings and post production, there are probably a million ways and of course a large amount of different results.  it's just whatever settings i have tried, the a7s never did look sharper or less noisy, except iso numbers that are so noisy on both cameras that you can't use them.  i really have wished i could jump to the a7s and have a better camera plus a lot of money from a sold 1DC as a christmas gift.  but right now the a7s doesnt top the 1DC anywhere, it's just weaker on several levels, while still being very good and good for the price.  it's just not 1/5th as cheap as the competitor AND twice as good.  that rarely does happen unfortunately.

​the difference between internal recording and the recording in shogun is hardly visible.  stefan czech did a technical test in his new shogun tutorial video that shows the main difference, here is a screenshot:

​no, really worse

​by the way:  the shogun of course doesnt affect the sony a7s iso performance or makes it worse.  shogun records as it is.  the a7s lowlight performance is also very good.   it's just not "outstanding, unseen and much better than any canon" good.  it's simply a bit weaker than the 1DC, but still good, especially for the money.  if you want to have internal recording, a great pro photo camera, less rolling shutter etc, you still need to pay the high price for the canon.

​it was the exact same exposure, lens, fstop, shutter, iso setting.  there are lots more frame grabs and videos, and the result is always the same.  people should simply do their own tests and they will see - unfortunately it seems hardly anybody has tested the 1DC in comparison to other cameras, as not too many own it.

​i also own a red epic dragon which is #1 on dxo mark, and unfortunately i have to say that both the 1DC and A7S beat the red by far regarding lowlight and noise.  dxo mark often does not have anything to do with what you see in reality or need for projects.  their own fantasy test science produces results that are always against canon.  especially as photo cameras it is a pure joke if you don't rank the a7s way behind the 1dc.

​the 1DC goes to ISO 204.000.  the A7S only looks a bit less noisy (but still less sharp) in areas from 50-200.000 ISO, but i don't see where anyone can use footage above 12.800 professionally anyway.  in the test, 1DC had c-log and a7s s-log, and it was not brought up in post.  still the a7s delivers impressive lowlight quality - but it doesnt beat the 1DC.  if sony would have had a lowlight technology that stands far above canon's AND sells it for 1/5 of the price, that would have been a wonder, and wonder's rarely do happen in combination of more features for less money...  i simply think too few people did use the 1DC too little time, as the price is way too high.  now together with the shogun this is really beautiful system, only with the lack of 4k 60p.  i am sure canon will come up with 4k for the 5D4 and C300 II in 2015, the question will be:  does it have 4k 60p?   i fear not, that might be left for an expensive C500 II.  so we might have the canon discussion for a little more time.  in any event the shogun might be a product that can be used for much longer time than any of the cameras.

tested the sony a7s together with 4k recording in shogun today in direct comparison to the canon 1DC (4k internal recording).   in lowlight and iso ranges of 3200 and above, the 1DC is a bit sharper and has a bit less noise than the a7s.   no big deal, other than the fact that this forum celebrated the a7s as the lowlight king #1, will claim the a7s plus shogun is a new world sensation, and still sees the 1DC as shitty camera.  now together with a shogun mounted on top of a 1DC, the canon combination beats the sony in every aspect except price (which is far less disturbing when taking into account that the value of a used 1DC is also much higher than of an a7s).  the rolling shutter of the a7s also makes the camera unusable in many situations.  the shogun itself is a great tool so far, except its glossy display, unfinished firmware and minor other things.

1DC crop:

A7S crop:

A clearly is the raw photo, unless here we have the worlds first photo camera which has a weaker photo image quality than video quality. 

aside from that, images with only sharp focus in the middle will hardly show the full potential of the camera or lens.

a landscape or street with f8-f16 would be much more interesting.  plus especially in 4k video, faster movements will show if the image holds up or is falling apart.

the top blogs of this planet and their followers can really have an impact on the manufacturers. but the arguments need to be 100% on the spot and should not be too biased.  in the 90s i had to put the same pressure on companies whose products i needed to be improved through magazine articles and long lists of detailed cons i have sent directly to them.  now i am happy that EOSHD is doing that for me for free regarding new canon cameras.  it just needs ALL facts, so people from canon know that someone knows and judges about the status of their products in each and every way, and not just lists 90% of all perspectives regarding improvements.

The A7S can go to 12,800 cleanly and it costs $2k. It's cleaner in low light at ISO 12,800 than the 1D C is at 6400 at "only 10,000 euros". Bargain I say, that 1D C. Bargain!

no, the A7s is not cleaner if all people would do setup both cameras right and treat them similarily in post.  the A7S has some in-camera-denoising that makes the images less sharp. after all steps in post, the cameras are pretty much the same.  but the bargain of the 1DC is 4K inside of the camera, and 4K from january 2013 on and not 2 years later.  the A7S is not usable for professional photography or timelapses, which means with an A7S you always need to carry around a second and third device (external recorder AND pro photo cam), which makes the A7S heavier, more complicated in workflow and as of today not much less expensive.   this forum lists A LOT of pros and cons about cameras, which is great - but then do list ALL facts and don't forget some really important ones.

Do you shoot a lot in low light Doug? You clearly read a lot in low light!! I clearly said "overall" that the GH4 and NX1 offer more features than the 1D C. They are better all-rounders, better optimised for shooting video. This isn't an opinion, it is a fact. I didn't design the cameras. Don't blame me for delivering to you a bunch of nice facts from the world out there.

 

As for "there's no extreme lowlight 4K camera alternative on the market" to the 1D C, I think you'll find the 4K output of the A7S is better in low light.

 

Again I didn't just invent that... it's a fact.

when the shogun AND its software are there, more comparison tests will show what the A7S really can do.  so far the 1DC is much better in 4K lowlight than most pro film cameras who are 2-8x as expensive.  i wonder why nobody says "hey its great that this special ability of the 1DC does ONLY cost 10.000 euros, and not much more".  in places where you should end at ISO 800 with an epic dragon or GH4, the 1DC can go to ISO 6400.  for this the money was absolutely worth it. 

Doug! It's $12,000! Not an enthusiast market camera! Hello! Do you read me!? DOUG!?

if this forum is all about cheap products for enthusiasts, why is the 1DC mentioned and compared here so often?

if you compare the other brands' cameras with a 7D2 in terms of film making, the massive critics are of course much more justified than saying a 1DC is bad, which definitely delivers better image results than a GH4, samsung, nikon or every other below $10.000 camera.

if it's all about enthusiasts, why do they need the most professional features at any time in the earliest possible stage?  and which should be one brand always be ahead and be responsible to be a market leader at any time?  canon has all technologies in their portfolio, right now they just don't give it away in one product or cheap.  it sucks, but they will have to change that in 2015, or we don't buy any new products from them.

i just wonder what happens IF canon is bringing out the perfect camera in spring.  will there be an apology by EOSHD that says "sorry i've tricked you into another brand and system, buying new cameras, lenses and adapters, although your canon camera would still have perfectly done it for your needs in the recent couple of months"?

because: when in history did pro photographers or filmmakers did exchange their core tools every 6 months, just because new and better technologies came out?

Also, I've got a PL adapter for my A7s so I can put Master Primes on it if I wanted! I'd take an A7s with Master Primes over a 1Dc with Canon still glass any/every day of the week.

Doug Laurent, do yourself a couple of favors;

1. Try to realize that Canon is not God, and that defending a camera that costs almost 10x a camera like the GH4 is plain silly.

 

people don't read and don't seem to get it.  the only thing i'm saying it is absurd that this blog claims all the new cheap cameras are way better in all aspects than the 1DC. in fact in this moment, after nearly 2 (!) years, theres no extreme lowlight 4k camera alternative on the market!  it's like as if someone urgently wants a ferrari and loves the ferrari brand, but as the car is too expensive, he says all volkswagen cars are much better anyway.  nobody at ferrari would listen to a person with such a statement.

Do you also have many leather-bound books and an apartment that smells of rich mahogany? C'mon, I've shot Alexa in Arriraw, RED Dragon, F65, and shot a lot of 35mm and 16mm. Commercials, TV and even films. I generally view 2k and 4k footage I've shot on calibrated monitors, and in some cases on cinema screens. But I'm not going to get into a pissing match about whether a $12,000 camera is better than a $1500 camera and try and prove to everybody that 'I'm kind of a big deal' because I'm not. Im a guy who shoots things and uses the best camera for the job.

I also don't invest in expensive cameras because I prefer to choose the camera that suits the project, rather than get overzealous about the camera I have purchased, and force it on every project because I need to justify my purchase.

I own an A7s because it's cheap and gives me a good picture. If I only shot corporate stuff, and shot it on a daily basis, maybe I'd invest in a camera - but I work regularly for many of the major production houses here, and very few own a camera. Many have invested in some lenses, but they rarely purchase their own camera, because even a production house that makes film or commercials every single day of the year knows that every production has different needs.

 

The A7s isn't really toy feeling. Compared to an Alexa or Epic, maybe - but IMO, even Blackmagics (as well as most/all video SLRs) feel like (and sometimes perform like) toys, especially when you compare them to an Alexa or a 435, for example. The A7s has some of the best low light performance on the market. Sure, maybe it's a tad noisier than other cameras, but I'm yet to see a single other camera that can see in the dark like this one can! You can't even rate a RED higher than about 320ISO without getting unacceptable noise. I push my A7s to ISO3200 in Slog and I'm relatively happy - not like the Epic which I'm cautious of rating at 800, let alone any higher!

Of course the Epic has other uses and features. I wouldn't use an A7s as my A cam on a high budget commercial. But man it gives a damn good image for such a cheap camera! 
 

Oh right, you mean unless you get the necessary adapter to put those lenses on the camera which contains electronic control...
Also, I know you have 150 lenses - did you know that you actually don't need to buy every single lens on the market available for a camera to actually be able to shoot with it? I have 8 primes for my A7s that all up cost me much less than $5000-$10000! Suits me fine - I've never had autofocus, electronic iris or lens stabilisation when shooting with lenses on any actual cinema camera (I know - shock, horror!).

Also, I've got a PL adapter for my A7s so I can put Master Primes on it if I wanted! I'd take an A7s with Master Primes over a 1Dc with Canon still glass any/every day of the week.
 

The fact that a comparison doesn't exist does not mean the 1Dc is inherently better. It just means no-one has looked to see if it is or not.
 

Man, you sure sound like a Canon fanboy.

Kodak went down the same path. They failed to innovate with their cameras, and coasted along thinking they would be fine, and they failed! Kodak invented the digital camera, and in 2005 were the number 1 selling camera manufacturer in the US! But they failed to anticipate, failed to innovate, and look where they are now.

you completely didnt get anything or read carefully.  i'm also one of canon's biggest critics and want a perfect 4k 60p camera for $3000 tomorrow myself, but the style of criticism is completely counterproductive, as the blog and posts like this are full of obvious ego problems.  if you post aggressive and highly biased stuff like this, you shouldnt be surprised if some readers with different insights fire back in a rather direct and arrogant way.

 

90% of all electronic items i own are not canon and i'm certainly not a canon fanboy, but i am fan of fair and clever thinking.  this by the way makes me earn enough money to be able to test all cameras year round, while most of the "pros" often just can spend 5 hours total with a new product, which is not enough.    this is why i were able to make enough comparisons between the 1DC and A7S to KNOW that andrew reids hate about the 1DC and glorification of these other cameras is WAY over the top. 

 

now reading post #10 about this "canon and 1DC are a piece of shit" issue is simply absolutely annoying, and i'd even rather watch another experimental mushy retro berlin demo movie than reading more of this.  why don't you simply write about the positive aspects of all the great new cheap cameras, instead of making a hate fest out of it?   canon is in a completely different situation as kodak, whose main product category did disappear.  you can be sure that canon knows they are slow with innovations, and they know they do what they do just to press most money out of the consumers.  but why don't you start with hate blog posts about apple and other companies first? 

Which makes you perfect placed to comment on the enthusiast subject at hand.


I've shot with the 1D C. Type EOSHD 1D C review into Google when you have a spare moment.


Really? A7S not better in low light? Hmm.


No I think you'll find the ergonomics suck as well. Perhaps the most unintuitive camera for video I've ever shot with.


Does your Epic have AF? Thought not. There's a reason for that.

You have your facts wrong. ALL the Canon, Tamron and Sigma lenses have f-stop control and IS via the Metabones adapter to Sony E-mount.
 

I have seen the A7S's 4K projected at Pinewood Studios. I can tell you what it looks like. It looks superb and it is full frame 4K not 1.3x crop on a 2 year old sensor aka 1D C.

many wrong ideas and facts. as the FS7 shows again, the E-mount has massive problems with EF mount lenses.  and yes, the epic DOES HAVE autofocus (and IS) with canon mount AF lenses.  you can even set the focus by putting your finger to the touchscreen (9" monitor in my case), which is a fast and great help.  it's also nice you have seen an expensive A7S demo film PROJECTED, but anything beamed to a wall even in full HD will look quite cool.  watch the difference of a comparison with the 1DC on large 4K tv screens, which is exactly how mankind will see content in the next 30 years.  amazon just sold 55" 4K tvs for 700 euros.

Key word is "overall". Some facts my friend...

 

Sony A7S with a monitor on top kills the 1D C stone dead for image quality.

1D C is not full frame 4K. The active imaging area is barely any larger than Super 35mm in 4K mode, thus NX1 and GH4 with Speed Booster give a similar rendering of Canon full frame lenses

The codec is from another time, when dinosaurs ruled the earth. 4K MJPEG takes up 6 times the space on my drive that H.265 4K does.

Monitoring on the 1D C bare bones is a nightmare. No EVF, no peaking, in fact virtually nothing to help you focus

The GH4 and NX1 can be used bare bones without a monitor, far more pleasing to shoot with

The 1D C is $12,000... how many times do I have to mention ENTHUSIAST MARKET for you to get the point of the article?

The 1D C's codec has banding issues at low ISOs

The 1D C's sensor is rated barely 12 stops, the GH4 for 13 stops and the A7S for 14. So in that sense the raw stills aren't the best either

 

Like I said... Sony A7S with Shogun on top or 1D C with monitor on top just so you can focus... It's a no brainer. Image, usability, size, portability... everything is better on the Sony.

1) "A7S kills 1DC stone dead" - should i laugh or should i cry?  when you write "in my opinion i like the sony a bit better", thats accepted - but with a sentence like this, how should anyone take other statements seriously?

2) 1DC is 1.3x (and in between full frame and cinema), which is bad why exactly?

3) do i want to have the codec with the smallest file size, or the best image quality?

4) as an external monitor is needed for 4k anyway, all peaking etc options are solved on the 1DC

5) the 1DC can definitely be used without a monitor, or havent you been able to use a 5D2/5D3 in the last 6 years?

6) most enthusiasts certainly have spend more than 20.000 on their cameras and lenses, so why not spend 12.000 for a camera (that also includes 2000 VAT AND can be resold for 8000)?  right now you technically lose 2500 when reselling a 1DC, while you lose 1500 when reselling a 5D3.  whats the big difference?

7) no banding issues from ISO 400 on.  banding issues below ISO only in plain sky.  easily to be solved with ND filters that are needed anyway.

8) this "2 more stops" thing is a fantasy you can't see or prove in direct comparison.  take some pictures with these cameras and an amateur will see that the 1DC kills the panasonic and sony in all aspects of image quality.  or are 70% of all pro photographers on this planet just blind amateurs or canon fanboys?

Key word is "overall". Some facts my friend...

 

Sony A7S with a monitor on top kills the 1D C stone dead for image quality.

1D C is not full frame 4K. The active imaging area is barely any larger than Super 35mm in 4K mode, thus NX1 and GH4 with Speed Booster give a similar rendering of Canon full frame lenses

The codec is from another time, when dinosaurs ruled the earth. 4K MJPEG takes up 6 times the space on my drive that H.265 4K does.

Monitoring on the 1D C bare bones is a nightmare. No EVF, no peaking, in fact virtually nothing to help you focus

The GH4 and NX1 can be used bare bones without a monitor, far more pleasing to shoot with

The 1D C is $12,000... how many times do I have to mention ENTHUSIAST MARKET for you to get the point of the article?

The 1D C's codec has banding issues at low ISOs

The 1D C's sensor is rated barely 12 stops, the GH4 for 13 stops and the A7S for 14. So in that sense the raw stills aren't the best either

 

Like I said... Sony A7S with Shogun on top or 1D C with monitor on top just so you can focus... It's a no brainer. Image, usability, size, portability... everything is better on the Sony.

i also have an epic dragon and 75", 65" and 55" 4K monitors where i can compare all these tools, plus 150 lenses.  shoot the same things with all these cameras and watch it on a big screen and then talk.  unfortunately hardly anybody does this comparison.  the a7s is a toy feeling camera with nice results, but definitely won't top the 1DC - not with a necessary $2000 external recorder and not in lowlight, when all settings are optimized in both cameras.  only the high price speaks against the 1DC.  big minus for the sony cameras is that most of the great array of canon, nikon, tamron, sigma lenses lacks stabilization, fstop control and of course autofocus.  which means for an a7s aside from the recorder you can spend another $5000-$10000 for sony lenses.  

definitely an a7s is enough to shoot full hd videos and watch them on small full hd monitors, or small 4k monitors who will not tell you what real 4k looks like.  to date nobody has proven in a 1:1 comparison with external recording that the a7s or another of the mentioned cameras tops the 1DC in anything in real world footage.

the main points are:  if someone is happy with so many so great cameras of other manufactures, why whining 10 times about other products by canon that might suck?  did anybody write such articles in 2009 about why samsung and panasonic suck regarding cameras and can't keep up with the 5D2?  i can't remember that. 

i also don't see how canon should listen to you if you virtually tell them they are complete idiots, when in fact their business and business numbers seem to work great.  the normal human reaction would be to do the exact opposite of what the person who thinks you're an idiot wants.

writing that "Samsung and Panasonic offer all-round video capabilities better than the 1D C for $1500, a difference of over $10,000" is just plain bullshit and won't make canon take this forum bering serious at all.

i love my GH4s and i thoroughly tested the A7S which has cool aspects, but a 1DC with a small monitor on top which has focus peaking beats the other cameras in all aspects except weight, or is at least on par - plus it's a way better photo camera.

i didn't like the price i had to pay for my 1DC, and i hurt canon by buying 3 GH4 instead of 3 7D2.

i also would love to buy a cheaper-than-1DC camera with 4K  from canon, and most likely this opportunity will happen in 2015.

but right now this sort of canon-bashing and whining seems to be more coming from people who don't make enough money to buy pro cameras like the 1DC, but still think they have the right to use it for little money.

this is not how the world and the free market works on this planet!

looking back in history, the 5D2, C300 and 1DC at their time were still the most important and first camera milestones in terms of quality except the D800 for its 36MP.

nobody can expect one company to be the leader in technology AND the cheapest prices at ANY time!

But how much is the 1DC? :D

in 1 month just 3000 more expensive than an A7S plus shogun.  plus has internal recording and is a perfect photo camera, while the sony is not a serious option for pro photographers.  this forum is really dedicated to people who want the best quality for the cheapeast price, which is never realistic.  plus people here might also not like if you tell them that their services should only cost half as much.

After various tests i might have found out that the Canon 1DC has a built in Sony A7S!!!  It's in the menu and the name is "High ISO Speed Noise Reduction = strong" which every user usually turns off because of a lack of knowledge, reading manuals and testing.  At ISO 128000 and 25600 you will get the same noise-less and softer images in both cameras.  But I have to admit: Good Hype Sony!

so basically this might be the reason why banding disappears on the 1DC only if ISO is set to a value higher than 400, as they need that ISO gain to add the noise to avoid that banding?