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Is Samsung shutting down their camera business?


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I live in Bangkok. When the NX1 was launched, I went to my usual camera shop and asked when they would get one. "We won't" was the answer. Samsung had decided to only go with existing dealers, built upon their refrigerator, mobile phone etc. business. Still, I've been trying to find one for a year. Never saw one, not in the shops, not in the wild. Big marketing/distribution failure. If they do the same thing elsewhere too, they're out.

According to CIPA statistics, mirrorless shipments are still less than a third of DSLR shipments. While the DSLR market is mainly shared between two brands (Canon and Nikon with more than 90% market share combined), the much smaller mirrorless market is shared between Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, Pentax and Samsung. It's hard enough to make money in such a market for the market leaders. For Samsung to get a fair share would require enormous investments in marketing etc., and the Japanese giants would breathe down their neck at every venue. I'm quite sure that they will pull out for now.

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There. I solved the ENTIRE problem.

You're funny. But... I think it all started when Andrew Reid put ZackGoodwin in a figure four leg lock over a Samsung 2/3 inch lens that Ed David thought was morally wrong to support. While Ebrahim ex

There's only selected markets left and the fact that even there accessories like the batteries are unavailable makes it quite likely that a global stop is imminent, just weird that they don't man up a

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Andrew said: "In my opinion, one issue with the NX system is the mount. APS-C has fallen out of fashion as the camera market has pushed further forward into enthusiast territory. Cameras like the Sony A7 series, Nikon D750 and Canon 5D Mark III have continued to sell as the lower-end APS-C and compact camera market took the brunt of the smartphone revolution."

I too believe that the mount is the primary reasons for the lack of sales of the NX1.  I can say this as someone who came very close to buying one about a year ago.  I'm still back in the dark ages of 1080p with my long-in-the-tooth GH3.  When I was considering the NX1 there were several things that held me back from buying.  One were the initial issues with the AF that were discussed on the Samsung DPReview forum (later solved by the rapid fire firmware updates by Samsung).  The other was that I kept looking at the SIZE of the 16-50 and 50-150 S Lenses.  Compared to my GH3 and 12-35 and 35-100, those lenses are HUGE.  I am mostly run and gun, (in fact I always carry my camera with me on my morning runs using a Black Rapid shoulder sling).  But, as I was debating if I wanted to jump to the NX system, with its HUGE (to me) S lenses, Sony was newly on the scene with FULL FRAME mirrorless cameras.  I could never pull the trigger on the NX1 because it just seemed like if I was going to abandon the u43 format, and wind up with HUGE heavy lenses, I might as well go FF.

Now, those are just the ruminations that I went through in my personal case, but, when Andrew made the comment about the MOUNT being key, I had to affirm that this was key to my considerations.  Other thoughts were that there are no Speedboosters for the NX mount and no 3rd party lenses etc, but, the overriding factor for never pulling the trigger on the NX1 was the timing of Sony creating a new class of FF mirrorless cameras.  I often said to myself:  "If I have to resort to lugging huge lenses, I may as well go FF".    

Of course, I'm still slogging along with my GH3, and hoping for 4k 60p in a GH5, so, I never acted on the FF impulse either!  :-)

But, my point of this post was to agree with Andrew's comment.  It's the mount.  Samsung released the best APS-C camera ever built, but released it right at the dawn of the FF Mirrorless age.  Oops.  

I can't say how many other people may have had these thoughts when considering the NX1, but, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it."  

      

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Andrew: Samsung’s “S” premium lens transforms the NX1 into a phenomenal run & gun 4K cinema camera and when combined with the digital image stabilisation of firmware V1.4 gives the best video stabilisation available on any interchangeable lens Super 35mm camera. It performs better than the Sony 5 axis in-body stabilisation and surpasses the Olympus E-M1’s system thanks to zero keystone distortion on wide angle shots.

 

Not to digress, but this is big news for me. I'm regretting not getting the lens when I had the chance. Looks like I'll have to save up now.

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Andrew said: "In my opinion, one issue with the NX system is the mount. APS-C has fallen out of fashion as the camera market has pushed further forward into enthusiast territory. Cameras like the Sony A7 series, Nikon D750 and Canon 5D Mark III have continued to sell as the lower-end APS-C and compact camera market took the brunt of the smartphone revolution."

I too believe that the mount is the primary reasons for the lack of sales of the NX1.  I can say this as someone who came very close to buying one about a year ago.  I'm still back in the dark ages of 1080p with my long-in-the-tooth GH3.  When I was considering the NX1 there were several things that held me back from buying.  One were the initial issues with the AF that were discussed on the Samsung DPReview forum (later solved by the rapid fire firmware updates by Samsung).  The other was that I kept looking at the SIZE of the 16-50 and 50-150 S Lenses.  Compared to my GH3 and 12-35 and 35-100, those lenses are HUGE.  I am mostly run and gun, (in fact I always carry my camera with me on my morning runs using a Black Rapid shoulder sling).  But, as I was debating if I wanted to jump to the NX system, with its HUGE (to me) S lenses, Sony was newly on the scene with FULL FRAME mirrorless cameras.  I could never pull the trigger on the NX1 because it just seemed like if I was going to abandon the u43 format, and wind up with HUGE heavy lenses, I might as well go FF.

Now, those are just the ruminations that I went through in my personal case, but, when Andrew made the comment about the MOUNT being key, I had to affirm that this was key to my considerations.  Other thoughts were that there are no Speedboosters for the NX mount and no 3rd party lenses etc, but, the overriding factor for never pulling the trigger on the NX1 was the timing of Sony creating a new class of FF mirrorless cameras.  I often said to myself:  "If I have to resort to lugging huge lenses, I may as well go FF".    

Of course, I'm still slogging along with my GH3, and hoping for 4k 60p in a GH5, so, I never acted on the FF impulse either!  :-)

But, my point of this post was to agree with Andrew's comment.  It's the mount.  Samsung released the best APS-C camera ever built, but released it right at the dawn of the FF Mirrorless age.  Oops.  

I can't say how many other people may have had these thoughts when considering the NX1, but, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it."  

      

Most DSLRs sold are lower end models like Rebels and such, so I don't believe that the statement "APS-C has fallen out of fashion" is correct. Most expensive ($2-2.5k and up) cameras are FF, while most under that price are APS-C or smaller. The NX1 is in the later group, so it has a normal sensor compared to its price group peers.

The reason why the S lenses are big is because they have relatively wide maximum apertures. It has nothing to do with the mount. If their maximum aperture was smaller (as with the cheaper NX zooms) the lenses would be smaller as well.

Most commercial video shoots I've crewed on have C300's and 5D Mk III's. 

The photographers also shoot Canon....1D, 5D, 7D. Everybody has EF lenses. Every single person with a camera. 

If Samsung wanted to make a big impact, they should sell or package up an electronic EF adapter with the camera and market the hell out of it. 

I suspect they can't, because the EF mount protocol is proprietary. They would need a license, and there isn't a snowballs hope in hell that Canon would give them one.

Outside of that they would have to hope that a third party manufacturer in some third world country where IP protection is limited would just make one.

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a7RII is not a competitor to the NX1 (full frame vs. crop).  Whole different league.  Right now NX1 is probably the best camera in it's niche (crop, video/pictures camera).  However, for $1000, it's going to be competing against a6000 w/pretty good lens (and the upcoming a7000, not to mention dark horses that we don't see).  I would also put the gh4 in the mix.  And isn't the gh5 going to be showing up soon?  A lot of these cameras are "slightly worse" and some slightly more expense than the NX1, but these slightly worse" cameras will have a better lens selection, more serviceable, have new accessories, better resale value, etc.  Also, the lenses of these "slightly worse" cameras can be used in newer camera models.

Unless you are a professional that needs something that the NX1 has that other cameras can't give you, I personally think NX1 with a good lens is worth no more than $500.  Personally,  I would rather take that $500 put it towards something in the Sony camp so for me, $300 or bust ;-P  hahahaa..  At the end of the day, the NX1/samsung system should be treated as disposable.  If it breaks, the odds are you aren't going to be fixing it (if the parts are even available in the future).  In any case, the price of the NX1 system will also depend on the level of supply which we don't know.  However, samsung did basically give away the nx500 for free during Pix Photo so perhaps there are a lot of NX1 sitting around somewhere in which case I will have my hard earned $300 ready :-) hahhaahha

Unless you are shooting razor thin depth of field with very wide apertures, FF has no advantage over crop. I suspect that not a whole lot of people are shooting video like that.

As far as resale is concerned, a $1000 body with zero resale value is a better buy than a $3000 body with a $1500 resale value. Just saying.

Fixed lens cameras like the old RX10 sell for ~$900 new, while the new [email protected] sells for ~$1300. Do you seriously think the NX1 with a good lens is worth half of what those cost? Because that is the reference that is going to be used for pricing. Remember, for the RX10 cameras there is none of this mythical "investment" people talk about, because when those cameras are done, they are done.

absolutely. Heard a samsung rep in an interview say that the nx1 works natively with their 4k tv's. After seeing the sharpness and color of the camera I knew it was more so designed for their 4k tv's...the needs of the filmmaker were secondary but I am not complaining...if it's sharp enough for a huge 4k tv it will work for other applications especially when Canon 5D footage has made it to the big screen for years now from Red Wings to the Green Inferno

By working natively I think they meant that their 2015 TVs have the same H.265 encoder that the NX1 uses built in to them. What that means is that you can put any clips you shot onto a USB device and play it back directly. Most other cameras produce H.264 encoded clips, but the TVs can only do H.264 at bit rates of up to 40 mbps (presumably they use a different, older, hardware encoder for that). That means that for most modern high end cameras you cant play your clips back without an external decoder.

If you have a 2015 4K Samsung TV, the NX1/500 have a big advantage over pretty much all of the competition for casual playback as a result.

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Samsung still has inventory to reduce and confirming that the camera division is dead would not help sales.  I'm waiting for the "After Christmas sales".  $500 for the a NX1 w/ lens.  Even if the NX1 would go to $500, not sure if it would be worth it.  If one buys an NX1, and it breaks, your expensive samsung lenses basically turn into bricks because there isn't really a marketplace for them.  yeah, you can get something for it, but not that much compared to lenses of other systems that are adaptable.  Also, one could buy another 2nd hand NX1... but as the years go on, there will be a diminishing amount of rapidly obsoleting stock of 2nd hand NX1.

If the price ever hits $300 for the NX1 w/lens, then I'll buy it.  Otherwise, I think it's better to save the money and buy something else. Sony a7000???  hahahaha...

Nah, you should wait and get the Nikon D400.

I hear it is going to be AMAZING!! :-)

The mount may be a factor but I don't think that was the main factor.

The problem is what came before the NX1 and Samsung simply paid for their lack of competence. Samsung was the first to bring WiFi to mirrorless cameras but aside from that, they didn't do anything right. Their first cameras had all sort of issues, laggy camera, poor low light performance, slow everything. They took too long to fix any of that and even the next models didn't bring anything that could work properly. Samsung's NX is just as old as Sony's NEX, Sony took a generation or two to really start to gain traction, that's when they came up with the NEX-6, NEX-7, 50mm f/1.8 and 35mm f/1.8 - and not much for APS-C ever since.

It wasn't until the NX1 that Samsung started to do something right and by that time it was kind of too late. All of that beside the fact that for all that time Samsung kept talking about how they were going to be #1 in the mirrorless market. During the time Samsung was developing the NX1, Fuji got into mirrorless and got a solid niche for themselves, Sony put APS-C completely aside and moved on to FF. Had Samsung acted quicker, trying to secure APS-C mirrorless video market they could had some success. Sony was making a test with the RX1, if Samsung had seen the potential and prepared for FF mirrorless, they could had been there right after Sony, had they offered something like the NX1 in a FF body, they would have internal 4K before Sony. Samsung even threw a Hail Mary with a 1" interchangeable lens system that went nowhere, had they went after the RX100 with something similar, they may had better success as well. Samsung insisted in not having EVF on their mid-range cameras when Panasonic was investing in the GX series, Olympus with the E-M series and Fuji came up with the X-T series.

It wasn't just one mistake but a series of it and unfortunately, although it proved to be a very interesting camera, the NX1 came a bit too late. Hopefully they might take all of these lessons and apply that into a new camera system, maybe a FF one, who knows? But I would like to see the good things they've done with the NX1 into some new cameras and do it right this time. Samsung has very interesting tech and they were pretty active with their firmware updates and it's great to have someone as big as Samsung doing that since Sony is not so much into smaller but great practical improvements.

It is rather amusing how the Samsung NX1 managed to be *BOTH* of these things:
a) "too late"

b) too far ahead for its time! Because they're using H.265 before Adobe or other mainstream NLEs are

LOL

 

It wasn't just one mistake but a series of it and unfortunately, although it proved to be a very interesting camera, the NX1 came a bit too late. Hopefully they might take all of these lessons and apply that into a new camera system, maybe a FF one, who knows? But I would like to see the good things they've done with the NX1 into some new cameras and do it right this time. Samsung has very interesting tech and they were pretty active with their firmware updates and it's great to have someone as big as Samsung doing that since Sony is not so much into smaller but great practical improvements.

Hopefully they'll enter the "pro" cinema market:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/brainstorming-a-future-us3000-samsung-cinema-camera/

As  their tech in the NX1 already proves they can deliver an amazing bang for your buck! :-D

Most commercial video shoots I've crewed on have C300's and 5D Mk III's. 

The photographers also shoot Canon....1D, 5D, 7D. Everybody has EF lenses. Every single person with a camera. 

If Samsung wanted to make a big impact, they should sell or package up an electronic EF adapter with the camera and market the hell out of it. 

But sadly one doesn't exist.... the question is: is this because the NX system is too small such that nobody has bothered to make one?? Or is it because their mount is too long (it is the longest of all the mirrorless systems! wtf.... why??? :-/ :-/ ), and thus it *can't* be done? I doubt it is the later, although Cadwell already claims the NX mount means a focal reducer is impossible to design for it :-( :-/

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Dear Sony fan boy.

Are you speaking for video or stills?

Because it certainly isn't a "whole different league" we're talking about for video between the NX1 and A7R II. I should know, I have both!

The A7R II does the best quality 4K in Super 35mm crop mode.

The quality of the full frame 4K is worse than the NX1's 4K.

Plus don't forget the A7r mk2 overheating issues.... of which NX1 has none of that. That alone can put the NX1 waaaay ahead of Sony for many people. 

Plus many other little factors, like I hear tracking AF on a gimbal is better on the NX1??? Plus the NX1 has better slow motion than the A7r mk2.  

I heard they were skipping the NX2 and coming out with an NX3 next month...

At last! Some good news! ;-)

Andrew said: "In my opinion, one issue with the NX system is the mount. APS-C has fallen out of fashion as the camera market has pushed further forward into enthusiast territory. Cameras like the Sony A7 series, Nikon D750 and Canon 5D Mark III have continued to sell as the lower-end APS-C and compact camera market took the brunt of the smartphone revolution."

I wonder is there any chance if the NX mount can support a FF sensor just like the Sony E mount was able to leap from selling NEX APS-C cameras to FE cameras.
Can it? I've heard a few people speculate that it can not, but I'm not sure. I'd find it very strange if Samsung designed the mount without an eye to the future....

Even m4/3 mount can at least support S35 sensors! :-D 

Not to digress, but this is big news for me. I'm regretting not getting the lens when I had the chance. Looks like I'll have to save up now.

If you ignore the slow f-stop, I wonder how much worse is the kit 16-50mm lens for stablisation in run and gun environments? Because many of us in such shoots won't mind slightly deeper depth of field (though will wish we had the better light gathering of f/2-2.8!! oh well, money!)

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The other was that I kept looking at the SIZE of the 16-50 and 50-150 S Lenses.  Compared to my GH3 and 12-35 and 35-100, those lenses are HUGE.  I am mostly run and gun, (in fact I always carry my camera with me on my morning runs using a Black Rapid shoulder sling).  But, as I was debating if I wanted to jump to the NX system, with its HUGE (to me) S lenses, Sony was newly on the scene with FULL FRAME mirrorless cameras.  I could never pull the trigger on the NX1 because it just seemed like if I was going to abandon the u43 format, and wind up with HUGE heavy lenses, I might as well go FF.

You're right the Panasonic zooms are incredibly small. Very good engineering but also they don't have to cover as large a sensor as APS-C. Micro Four Thirds 2x crop only.

Lots of things determine the size of the lens - optical design, aperture size, focal length and sensor size.

Sony have had to cripple the speed of their full frame zooms so far to keep the size down.

Canon as well recently brought out a 24-70mm F4L to keep the size and weight down vs the bigger 24-70mm F2.8L.

The Samsung 16-50mm F2.0-F2.8 is actually very small considering the range and aperture, much smaller than the Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 for instance.

It's also surprisingly light.

It's about the size of the Sigma 50mm F1.4 ART prime but not nearly as heavy. It isn't any bigger than the 'mini' Canon 24-70 F4 but it is WAY brighter!

No it isn't as small as the Lumix 12-35mm F2.8 but consider this -

  • In 4K on the GH4 you lose the 12mm wide end of the Lumix lens
  • The Samsung is a stop faster at F2.0 at the wide end
  • It is a Super 35mm look, shallower DOF
  • It goes to 50mm at the wide end, the Lumix is only 35mm, different characteristics to the image (although crop of sensors make the long end the same FF equiv. focal length)
  • Also the OIS of the Samsung is better especially when combined with the DIS mode on the NX1.
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You're right the Panasonic zooms are incredibly small. Very good engineering but also they don't have to cover as large a sensor as APS-C. Micro Four Thirds 2x crop only.

Lots of things determine the size of the lens - optical design, aperture size, focal length and sensor size.

Sony have had to cripple the speed of their full frame zooms so far to keep the size down.

Canon as well recently brought out a 24-70mm F4L to keep the size and weight down vs the bigger 24-70mm F2.8L.

The Samsung 16-50mm F2.0-F2.8 is actually very small considering the range and aperture, much smaller than the Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 for instance.

It's also surprisingly light.

It's about the size of the Sigma 50mm F1.4 ART prime but not nearly as heavy. It isn't any bigger than the 'mini' Canon 24-70 F4 but it is WAY brighter!

No it isn't as small as the Lumix 12-35mm F2.8 but consider this -

  • In 4K on the GH4 you lose the 12mm wide end of the Lumix lens
  • The Samsung is a stop faster at F2.0 at the wide end
  • It is a Super 35mm look, shallower DOF
  • It goes to 50mm at the wide end, the Lumix is only 35mm, different characteristics to the image (although crop of sensors make the long end the same FF equiv. focal length)
  • Also the OIS of the Samsung is better especially when combined with the DIS mode on the NX1.

Your work in defending (rightfully) this camera is impecable, I too try to advise people towards the NX1, but people seem to be against it since it has been released, even though it ticks all the boxes, it is without a doubt the best video camera out there.

I think what we all should do (those who own it), is create beautifull things with it, be creative, do shortfilms, works, whatever ! Show the world and Samsung that this piece is a great piece of tech and its worth investing time into it. Perhaps a simple marketing change, a few tweaks in the firmware would have fixed their whole sales problem.

I too was going to buy a GH4, but when I got the money, and learned about the NX1...it seemed like an obvious choice, the NX1 is superior in every way, stills are much better, you dont have to spend 600€ on a speedbooster (imagining you wanna use Nikon and Canon glass, thats 1200€ on speedbooster alone), better slow mo and overall better performance, yet people refuse to accept this, the reason being is that, pros arent using it, and theres a lot of amateur videos out there, but you need to consider this is a new system, not many people buy first generation gear, but slowly we begin to see some beautifull works with the NX1 showing its full potential.

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The GH4 has a haze of noise reducing colour saturation over the image at ISO 800.

If it is fine grain you want just add it in post.

The NX1 doesn't have any heavier noise reduction than normal and it can be turned off in the menus. Heavy NR would smudge fine details and low contrast details. These areas are outstanding at ISO 800 on the NX1 compared to the GH4. It just doesn't have any noise to start with. It has a hell of a high signal to noise ratio.
 

There is no way to turn off noise reduction in video with the NX1, a lot of fine details are removed  even at ISO 400 in low light.
 

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There is no way to turn off noise reduction in video with the NX1, a lot of fine details are removed  even at ISO 400 in low light.

The codec preserves fine detail at ISO 400, noise reduction doesn't play a part.

What you are probably seeing... you don't show us an example (why?)... is a badly underexposed and underlit shot with large areas of low contrast, low detail that the codec has compressed more than the better lit parts of the frame. Nothing to do with NR and you show me a camera shooting compressed video that DOESN'T do that!

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