Jump to content

Footage too smooth


64mulford
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone. I know this forum is more for cameras/lenses etc but this question is more aimed at preparing footage for broadcast, although I do have a GH4 related question below...

 

Just produced my first TV commercial and saw it on air for the first time today. Bit of a shock as it looked completely different than how it looked on my computer. I'm not talking about the color, Im talking about the motion. The motion looked overly smooth, it was like watching the Hobbit in 48fps for the first time - just odd.

The ad was filmed on a Lumix GH4, at 4K, 1080 and 96fps, with the shutter speed set to double whatever the frame rate was. Edited in a 1080 25p timeline, exported as a 1080 25i (top first) ProRes as requested by the network. From what i can gather this is a standard workflow so I'm not sure why the motion looks so smooth. The surrounding commercials looked like the normal, familiar motion that we are all used to.

Any ideas? Is it the GH4 just not matching the high end cameras that filmed the other ads? Although they must use similar settings and workflow so surely motion would be the same? Have I done something wrong with the interlacing? Maybe I should be filming at a higher shutter rate?

Any tips on your broadcast workflow would be great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EOSHD Pro Color 5 for Sony cameras EOSHD Z LOG for Nikon CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I can only imagine what happened. You wrote your recording frame rate was 96 fps (probably for slomos?). You imported those into a 1080 25p project and exported directly to ProRes 1080 25i (=50i). 

 

What the NLE does is ignore the "p"-setting of the project and use every phase preserved in the original recording, therefore effectively ending with really interlaced video that has differing upper and lower fields, whereas what you were actually after was PSF (progressive segmented frames), which meets the broadcast standard whilst still showing the cinematic jerkyness. PSF means: No field domination/order.

 

Premiere: > right click > change > interpret footage > framerate > set to 25p

FCP 7: open 96 fps clips as batch in Cinema Tools > conform >framerate conversion >25p (does the same as Premiere, but before import)

FCP X: Edit everything in a 25p project, export a 25p master, from that let Compressor make a 50i version (will then have PSF).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I did just that. Export master 25p, into Compressor. But exported 25i as requested. Are you saying 50i is the way to go? PSF is a term I haven't heard before  but sounds like just what I am looking for.

 

If you export a master in 25p as a self-contained film (this is an old term and also one translated from german, but I hope you know what I mean), there are only 25 phases left for Compressor to work with. 

 

On the other hand, if you fed FCP with 96 phases, the playback will skip about three of four frames to meet the "25p", but will never discard the original information. The moment you export this timeline with Compressor (and manually set a field domination as "top"!), Compressor will use roughly every second frame of the original, depending on the "frame conversion method" you chose (skip frame, frame blending, optical flow).

 

Because 96 frames can't be divided by 25 in integer numbers, resulting in an irritating stuttering, you may very well have chosen optical flow. Optical flow does allow Compressor to re-invent missing motion information out of 25p to get 50 phases, and it additionally would smudge the 'cadence', smoothing  the motion further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To confuse matters even more, some display/tv sets these days will actually interpolate "missing" frames in real time with their internal electronics, making slower frame rate "film" material appear more like "video."

...and don't even bother trying to explain aspect ratios to casual consumers or get them to correctly display an image as intended...

It's all a friggin' mess these days.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good start is to monitor your edit playback on your own broadcast "TV" display not your computer monitor. (with the proper playback capabilities)

 

The most likely scenario is that you inadvertently built the edit with a higher frame rate than intended and then delivered it that way.  Computer monitors are progressive, so you wouldn't see an accurate representation of an interlaced frame rate.

 

And even though you didn't shoot interlaced, since it was a high frame rate, that higher frame rate was maintained somehow throughout your post production/exporting.

 

I'd assert this issue has nothing whatsoever to do with the camera.  It's a post-production mistake.  Something wasn't set up correctly in your workflow.  

 

My experience for Japan and NorthAmerican TV spots: (ntsc)

 

I build my progressive edits/videos and then export the final clip as a self-contained stand-alone .mov file.  This way I'm assured I have a true progressive .mov file at the 24p fps aesthetic I want.  Then I place it on a timeline/sequence that's 59.94i and re-export under those particular settings.

 

I'm curious though, what was the intent of shooting 96?  Were you converting some of your shots into slow-mo?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that FCP7 doesn't show you the whole frame if the window is less than 100%. If your playback windows is 96% it will deinterlace and show only half the lines.

 

First check that everything looks ok at 100% on the computer. If it does, then compressor is probably applying optical flow to get to 50i (50 fields inside 25 frames). Check the MASTER FILE you send to broadcast.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I agree, I need a calibrated TV to view before sending to network, however I'm still not sure where it all went wrong. 

 

A good start is to monitor your edit playback on your own broadcast "TV" display not your computer monitor. (with the proper playback capabilities)

 

The most likely scenario is that you inadvertently built the edit with a higher frame rate than intended and then delivered it that way.  Computer monitors are progressive, so you wouldn't see an accurate representation of an interlaced frame rate.

 

And even though you didn't shoot interlaced, since it was a high frame rate, that higher frame rate was maintained somehow throughout your post production/exporting.

 

I build my progressive edits/videos and then export the final clip as a self-contained stand-alone .mov file.  This way I'm assured I have a true progressive .mov file at the 24p fps aesthetic I want.  Then I place it on a timeline/sequence that's 59.94i and re-export under those particular settings.

 

Fuzzynormal -Absolutely certain that the it was edited in a 25p timeline. Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i.

 

Neither am I, but software being weird and having so many parameters that may or may not be working appropriately, tick boxed here or not ticked boxed there... the extra step of assurance keeps the process under control.  Works for me anyway.  Never been a fan of Compressor myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fuzzynormal -Absolutely certain that the it was edited in a 25p timeline. Not sure why your method above would result in a different look from editing in 25p then exporting using compressor settings to 25i.

 

Perhaps because Compressor (at least the current version) knows no NONE in the field order checkbox of the duplicated ProRes-preset. Didn't know. The legacy FCP had this third option above upper and lower field first. Also, because the short test clip I exported took an inappropriately long time, I suspect Compressor automatically made in-betweens. Don't like to carry it to the TV set though.

 

Maybe a new project in FCP X is better? There it only says "25i". But I'm not sure. 

 

I did make some blurays from 1080 25p. As you know, it's not supported, so FCP X must have converted the stuff to PSF. There was no smoothed motion there.

 

Tell us the solution, once you found out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

export a 25p master first and then convert to 25i.

 

You can experiment with thousands of ways to accompish the exporting, but I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S..  You want 25p? Keep your entire workflow in 25p 'til your final cut is created and standing alone as an individual .mov file, that way you know what you got is what you want as you want it.

 

Once that's done, then take the next step(s).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like you need to set up some internal QC (as said above) of the final export before you deliver. You have to know what your work will look like when it's aired so you can troubleshoot internally and fix the "smooth" problem.  You can also try recording the spot when it airs and calibrate against the file you exported for delivery... and throw a crap TV set into the test list too, since that's really what people will see it on. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • EOSHD Pro Color 5 for All Sony cameras
    EOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
    EOSHD Dynamic Range Enhancer for H.264/H.265
×
×
  • Create New...