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Step aside L Mount Alliance and...


MrSMW
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...enter the L2 Alliance!

Panasonic and Leica made a joint announcement that they are 'furthering' their collaboration.

Quite what that entails, remains to be seen but I read it as thus:

Leica I believe are pulling back from offering anything less than full frame and Panny don't and I can't see them entering the APSC arena.

So I think that pretty much confirms there will be a successor to the full frame S line.

The big Q is will they go PDAF...

Regardless of individual opinion and it's been debated to death and back, the simple reality is camera brands sticking with CDAF, ie, mainly Old Panny Boy (because Leica has it's own special club) are being beat up with the AF stick.

I suspect we won't see anything physical this year because the Leica SL2-S only came out last year (?) and the Panny S5 towards the end of 2020, but over the Winter for Spring 2023... Maybe, from at least Panasonic.

What do I want to see personally?

PDAF.

Slightly smaller and lighter if poss and Panasonic have also said officially earlier this year this is something they are 'working on'.

Other than that, 6k, 8k, 48k, blah blah blah, - I don't mind/care what it is as 4k 50/60p is already fine by me.

No need to go crazy on the mega-pixies either. I'm more than happy with my S1R's 47mp and though could go back to 24, I'd like to see something between the two so somewhere between 30-35mp?

Get the basics right and don't chase the on paper headlines.

Just mash up the S1H, S1R and S5 with PDAF and they will have a winner on their hands.

I would also really like to see an interchangeable lens rangefinderesque body from Panasonic.

Otherwise, despite what some seem to think, it looks like there's a future here...??

Sigma was not mentioned I don't think. What that means, I don't know, but otherwise it would have been L3.

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Why? Leica make mirrorless ‘DSLR’ type cameras, the SL line in L mount as do Panny, so I’d expect them to continue?

My hope is a mirrorless rangefinderesque on top of the brick options…

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Maybe a hint of what's coming: S1CK A.F.

https://www.l-rumors.com/lumix-ambassador-makes-another-easter-egg-teases-the-launch-of-a-new-camera-with-sick-af/

If Panasonic wants to survive in photo/video mirrorless camera world, good tracking auto-focus is a must. Having in mind that inside Leica SL-2 and SL-2S is most likely the same Panasonic processor that is in S5/S1/S1R/S1H, IBIS and so on, it is more than just Panasonic survival but Leica's also. Announcement makes sense. 

Happy with my Panasonic S5 and S1 but it's good to know that L mount and system has a future.

It would be great if Blackmagic joins the alliance. Blackmagic need a mirrorless mount covering FF for their next gen cameras.

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I saw this earlier and was a little confused. Does this replace the L-Mount Alliance or is it in addition to it? One thing they absolutely need to do, in addition to the AF (if only so we can stop hearing about it), is open up the mount to more third parties. I'd love to see Tamron make some L-mount lenses, for example. I think that is an underrated part of Sony's strategy. They went from a mount that had very few lenses to one that has the most robust, mature native lens lineup out of anyone. Part of that is obviously because they got a head start, but also because you've got so many companies now making lenses for the mount that work really well with the cameras, from Sigma to even small Chinese companies like Viltrox. Contrast that with the L-Mount Alliance, where it's pointless to even try using autofocus with Sigma lenses on Panasonic bodies.

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5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Contrast that with the L-Mount Alliance, where it's pointless to even try using autofocus with Sigma lenses on Panasonic bodies.

Really? Is it that bad? I'd have assumed at least within the L Mount Alliance that performance would be very good if you wanted to mix and match. 

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Really? Is it that bad? I'd have assumed at least within the L Mount Alliance that performance would be very good if you wanted to mix and match. 

From the videos I've watched they unfortunately don't work well in video mode when it comes to AF. They work great for photos, but the results in video reminded me of trying to use AF with a speedbooster on my GH5.

I was going to get the Sigma 28-70 but the results I saw were bad; I thought about renting it to see for myself but it feels like it'd be a waste of $90 or whatever dollars. Right now I'm using the kit lens and is quite a gem to be honest. I am looking at the Panny 24-105mm though, as F4 is more than enough for my sports and event work. 

Related: I really, really like the S5. I can't believe I got a lightly used one with a cage, 2 OEM batteries, and the kit lens for $1400. I highly recommend getting it, especially if you can find a deal. The image is so good. 

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24 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

From the videos I've watched they unfortunately don't work well in video mode when it comes to AF.

At risk of this turning into another AF thread (but when does talking Panny does that not happen?!) but err, not quite.

Native is better and even then, some lenses better than others but the 24-105 is quite decent. I have had it tracking entrances/exits/confetti etc recently pretty well.

Sigma doesn’t work quite as well but is not terrible.

In fact it’s well above that and useable in most situations most of the time that are not intense forward tracking.

But back on topic, what does it mean for the alliance?

Well it’s a bit of an odd one alright as with Sigma they are the L Mount alliance which I suspect is more a lens mount sharing thing.

L2 sounds more like an increased level of collaboration between Leica & Lumix regarding bodies, or at least the tech.

Maybe we will see an identical body (or near as) but just with different branding just as we have done before with these two.

Fuji and Hasselblad also did this with the Xpan.

The main takeaway for me however was the evidence as it were that something full frame is in the pipeline…

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6 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Sigma doesn’t work quite as well but is not terrible.

In fact it’s well above that and useable in most situations most of the time that are not intense forward tracking.

Good to know. The videos I saw would hunt back and forth excessively before getting focus. Maybe I will rent it when I have a gig that doesn't need AF, so if it works poorly I can still use it manually. 

The 24-105mm though is really appealing. It looks like it could be the one and done lens for my event work. Then for my other work I can get some primes and also use the kit lens. We'll see! 

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So many variables…

Native or non-native lens.

Prime or zoom.

Full frame or S35.

Type of AF selected:

Fine-tuning of AF.

Lighting conditions of subject, background, foreground (remember it’s contrast based).

Distractions such as is there something ‘more interesting’ nearby waving it’s arms about?

The user’s familiarity with the system.

Perfect? Hardly but then we know that.

Useable? All points above considered, definitely.

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1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

So many variables…

Native or non-native lens.

Prime or zoom.

Full frame or S35.

Type of AF selected:

Fine-tuning of AF.

Lighting conditions of subject, background, foreground (remember it’s contrast based).

Distractions such as is there something ‘more interesting’ nearby waving it’s arms about?

The user’s familiarity with the system.

Perfect? Hardly but then we know that.

Useable? All points above considered, definitely.

I wish I had this camera in my hands to test the AF for my scenario. Seems like it might honestly work for what I need. Basically would be using native Panasonic lenses, probably a combo of the 50mm 1.8 and the 20-60 kit, with the 20-60 being an acting duty 20mm prime for me. 
 

I would need basic AF to stick on to a face with some basic handheld motion, would need it to be stable enough to do basic gimbal tracking shots, and would need it to be able to keep a person in-focus, in a controlled, properly lit scene. 
 

I’d even be willing to accept a bit of background pulsing, as long as the subject isn’t going crazy out of focus. 
 

I would want to shoot 4k 24fps in full-frame mode. 
 

But might be willing to go super 35 and use a lens like a sigma 18-35 instead. 
 

Only reason I got a Z6/Ninja V combo instead was the superior AF

 

Edit: Has anyone tried shooting 4k 50 or 60p in the super 35 mode, then using optical flow in post to confirm it to 24p without changing speed?

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11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I saw that link, but (and I know this might make me sound a little crazy here....) I didn't think that manufacturers announced alliances by wearing t-shirts and posts on rumour sites.

Yeah, I know, crazy talk.

I guess if @MrSMW says "Panasonic and Leica made a joint announcement that they are 'furthering' their collaboration." then it must be true - regardless of the source!

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7 minutes ago, kye said:

I guess if @MrSMW says "Panasonic and Leica made a joint announcement that they are 'furthering' their collaboration." then it must be true - regardless of the source!

Official source is here.

No less vague but still official.

https://leica-camera.com/en-int/news/leica-camera-ag-and-panasonic-signed-strategic-comprehensive-collaboration-agreement?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=proactive_(publishing)&utm_medium=social&linkId=100000128059709

Meanwhile, the junior partner just concentrates on getting on with releasing tangible assets for the current alliance.

 

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3 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Official source is here.

No less vague but still official.

https://leica-camera.com/en-int/news/leica-camera-ag-and-panasonic-signed-strategic-comprehensive-collaboration-agreement?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=proactive_(publishing)&utm_medium=social&linkId=100000128059709

Meanwhile, the junior partner just concentrates on getting on with releasing tangible assets for the current alliance.

 

I have no idea what you mean....

They say "cameras are required to have capability to create more impressive and breathtaking expression"

I want to create more impressive and breathtaking expression, I mean, don't we all?  

Finally a manufacturer has stopped using all these nouns all over their press releases and have started talking sense!

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2 hours ago, kye said:

I guess if @MrSMW says "Panasonic and Leica made a joint announcement that they are 'furthering' their collaboration." then it must be true - regardless of the source!

The source is a camera company called Leica and the camera division of a company called Panasonic.

They are quite well known.

They stood on a stage together, recorded a piece (which I am sure they were reading off a flip chart) and put it out on their respective YouTube channels.

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