The spec race isn't anywhere done yet! Canons crazy Komodo patent is wild..

[kye]

A recent Canon patent shows a RED Komodo style body with huge specifications.

https://ymcinema.com/2022/02/11/canon-develops-high-end-boxy-cinema-camera/

It's an interesting glimpse into Canons thinking.

Firstly, it's a dead-ringer for the Komodo, including the screen on the top.  It would be great if they'll use this as a screen or if it'll just be for controls, but that's potentially promising for building a small self-contained rig.

But the specs show where Canon are prepared to go.  

• 10K or more resolution
• 120fps or more
• sensors up to 56x42 (a 4:3 with crop factor of 0.64) or even 186x56 (which is a very wide aspect ratio, but the horizontal crop factor is 0.19 !!!!!!)

Now, this is a patent, and it makes sense for Canon to design a body that is future proof so they can get economies of scale and standardise on accessories etc, so these are just the upper limits of what they might actually do, but they're essentially betting that these things are likely enough that it's worth designing them in.

It's time to stop thinking "more is better" and start asking "how much is optimal", because Canon will forever be your pusher..   

[TomTheDP]

Maybe it'll be a contender as a narrative camera. Though at 10k res maybe not. 🤔

[leslie]

can we start a betting ring on how they plan to cripple it ? 

[kye]

2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Maybe it'll be a contender as a narrative camera. Though at 10k res maybe not. 🤔

you didn't need the word "res" in there...  "Though at 10k maybe not."  then it works either way 🙂 

2 hours ago, leslie said:

can we start a betting ring on how they plan to cripple it ? 

Heavily.  

[BTM_Pix]

I'm struggling to see on what grounds Canon are expecting to receive a patent for that?

It has an impressive spec but, reading the article, I can't see that there is anything new enough about it to satisfy a patent being granted.

Unless the innovation Canon are hanging it on is that they have not crippled it because, yeah, that would certainly cover the "novelty" aspect of a patent in their case.

[kye]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm struggling to see on what grounds Canon are expecting to receive a patent for that?

It has an impressive spec but, reading the article, I can't see that there is anything new enough about it to satisfy a patent being granted.

Unless the innovation Canon are hanging it on is that they have not crippled it because, yeah, that would certainly cover the "novelty" aspect of a patent in their case.

The patent system is broken.  I remember years ago seeing enough examples that were beyond ridiculous that I now just think of it as yet another system that is dysfunctional and if you have enough money you can basically do anything.

I just want lots of camera manufacturers to start making smaller cameras so that it gives us solo hand-held guerrilla-shooters more options 🙂 

[Nikkor]

Lol that's the camera I always wanted

[leslie]

1 hour ago, kye said:

 

I just want lots of camera manufacturers to start making smaller cameras so that it gives us solo hand-held guerrilla-shooters more options 🙂 

i'm with you on the idea,   that the law is an ass at times, kinda thing. Still rules are there for a reason.  I think the term "guerrilla shooting" is a poor choice of words. I know it infers some kind of rebellious processes and sounds cool.  I also suspect there's a few people probably a bit miffed having payed their dues and then others running around with ambivalence and flaunting a disdain for the system.  If a person was shooting guerrilla style, that person is most likely being discreet about it. I think one  should apply that discretion in the forums as well.

By all means be positive about what ever features you find exciting in cameras.  The whole announcing I'm going to go out to shoot guerrilla style, because i can, probably needs a bit of a rethink. The last thing we want to do is make things harder. 

[kye]

35 minutes ago, leslie said:

i'm with you on the idea,   that the law is an ass at times, kinda thing. Still rules are there for a reason.  I think the term "guerrilla shooting" is a poor choice of words. I know it infers some kind of rebellious processes and sounds cool.  I also suspect there's a few people probably a bit miffed having payed their dues and then others running around with ambivalence and flaunting a disdain for the system.  If a person was shooting guerrilla style, that person is most likely being discreet about it. I think one  should apply that discretion in the forums as well.

By all means be positive about what ever features you find exciting in cameras.  The whole announcing I'm going to go out to shoot guerrilla style, because i can, probably needs a bit of a rethink. The last thing we want to do is make things harder. 

It's not about rules, it's about perception.

We're at a funny time in history.  Anyone can shoot in public with a phone and no-one bothers them.  Governments and private residences can setup permanent security cameras that record people in public without their consent.  It's legal in most public places (here in Australia anyway) to record video.  Most private places such as museums and galleries and amusement parks and events allow photography and videography for private use.  

The only thing that really isn't allowed is professional shooting without a permit.

Unfortunately, the way that people tell the difference between the two is by the size of the camera.  If I went to a park with a bunch of other parents and we all stood in a line recording our kids, everyone with an iPhone and me with an FS5, I'm going to be seen differently.  If I go to a museum and film my kids running around with a BMPCC6K and a shotgun microphone I'm going to get interrogated by security.

Guerilla film-making is a phrase to indicate that you are shooting without permission.  It doesn't mean that you NEED permission, it just means you don't have it - just like all the mums with smartphones don't have it either.  It means that fitting in and not getting noticed matters.  It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

If someone calls security and I have to talk with them and convince them that I'm not doing anything wrong and they walk away, that's still failure to me because I don't want to have that happen in the first place.  It doesn't matter that I'm not doing the wrong thing.

To give you an idea about how poorly venues are able to distinguish between pros and amateurs, I went to a temple in Bangkok and there was a sign at the entry.  8mm film cameras are ok, 16mm film cameras are not.  That was 2019.  I hoped that no-one would think my GH5 was a 16mm film camera.

[Xavier Plagaro Mussard]

4 hours ago, kye said:

The patent system is broken.  I remember years ago seeing enough examples that were beyond ridiculous that I now just think of it as yet another system that is dysfunctional and if you have enough money you can basically do anything.

Another way to take from the poors and give to the richs. 

[Andrew Reid]

"sensors up to 56x42 (a 4:3)"

So Canon going into medium format market then?

Which of their current lenses will cover that?!

There must be more to it. I would be very surprised if they bring out a Canon camera with no Canon lenses to go with it.

[Andrew Reid]

Plot twist. This patent is actually for the Komodo. Canon makes it for RED.

Just a thought. Probably an incorrect one but it is oddly similar isn't it?

[Eric Calabros]

Damn, I need to sell my Lamborghini to buy memory cards for 10k 120fps. 

[leslie]

9 hours ago, kye said:

It's not about rules, it's about perception.

We're at a funny time in history.  Anyone can shoot in public with a phone and no-one bothers them.  Governments and private residences can setup permanent security cameras that record people in public without their consent.  It's legal in most public places (here in Australia anyway) to record video.  Most private places such as museums and galleries and amusement parks and events allow photography and videography for private use.  

The only thing that really isn't allowed is professional shooting without a permit.

Unfortunately, the way that people tell the difference between the two is by the size of the camera.  If I went to a park with a bunch of other parents and we all stood in a line recording our kids, everyone with an iPhone and me with an FS5, I'm going to be seen differently.  If I go to a museum and film my kids running around with a BMPCC6K and a shotgun microphone I'm going to get interrogated by security.

Guerilla film-making is a phrase to indicate that you are shooting without permission.  It doesn't mean that you NEED permission, it just means you don't have it - just like all the mums with smartphones don't have it either.  It means that fitting in and not getting noticed matters.  It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

If someone calls security and I have to talk with them and convince them that I'm not doing anything wrong and they walk away, that's still failure to me because I don't want to have that happen in the first place.  It doesn't matter that I'm not doing the wrong thing.

To give you an idea about how poorly venues are able to distinguish between pros and amateurs, I went to a temple in Bangkok and there was a sign at the entry.  8mm film cameras are ok, 16mm film cameras are not.  That was 2019.  I hoped that no-one would think my GH5 was a 16mm film camera.

i was taking a more along  the lines of actual guerrilla shooting, not paying for permits that sort of thing. Mums and dads is quite different and quite obvious as to whats going on. 

i'm not sure i'd call educating some security personal a failure. Sure its a waste of 5 minutes of your time however most of these courses are kinda rudimentary, and half the time its a second job for some poor soul. Cant see them covering the differences between mum and dads and guerilla filmmaking in the course material.   

For those of us who have nice gear and want to use it. I feel it all comes back to leading from the front. Take your gear use it where you can, sure you will be looked at, sometimes questioned even nocked back at times. For those time it may be wise to have a smart phone as a backup  I reckon we just have to accept the fact that people will need educating.

i do know if you want to clear a room either cough really loud or pull out a camera bigger than a smartphone.    🤣

i had my p4k in the main street of town taking some footage of the old post office which has a large clock set into the tower. It amused me that people where actually crossing the street to go around me. Mostly women, which amused me even more as women generally goto great lengths to look good before they go out, then when they do come across a guy with a camera they head in the opposite direction  😀

 

[Video Hummus]

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Plot twist. This patent is actually for the Komodo. Canon makes it for RED.

Just a thought. Probably an incorrect one but it is oddly similar isn't it?

yeah, that is way too similar to Komodo to be a coincidence. Something more to the story here on that patent filing...

[webrunner5]

57 minutes ago, leslie said:

i was taking a more along  the lines of actual guerrilla shooting, not paying for permits that sort of thing. Mums and dads is quite different and quite obvious as to whats going on. 

i'm not sure i'd call educating some security personal a failure. Sure its a waste of 5 minutes of your time however most of these courses are kinda rudimentary, and half the time its a second job for some poor soul. Cant see them covering the differences between mum and dads and guerilla filmmaking in the course material.   

For those of us who have nice gear and want to use it. I feel it all comes back to leading from the front. Take your gear use it where you can, sure you will be looked at, sometimes questioned even nocked back at times. For those time it may be wise to have a smart phone as a backup  I reckon we just have to accept the fact that people will need educating.

i do know if you want to clear a room either cough really loud or pull out a camera bigger than a smartphone.    🤣

i had my p4k in the main street of town taking some footage of the old post office which has a large clock set into the tower. It amused me that people where actually crossing the street to go around me. Mostly women, which amused me even more as women generally goto great lengths to look good before they go out, then when they do come across a guy with a camera they head in the opposite direction  😀

 

I get it from both sides. I live in a small town, 12,000 people that has a large college in it, 25,000. The young girls think I am a Pervert and the women with kids think I am a Pedophile lol. I can't win.

 But on the weekends when both the boys and girls are drunk, they come up to me and want to be in my movie lol.

[kye]

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

"sensors up to 56x42 (a 4:3)"

So Canon going into medium format market then?

Which of their current lenses will cover that?!

There must be more to it. I would be very surprised if they bring out a Canon camera with no Canon lenses to go with it.

I'd suggest it's possible they'll get into medium format - it's where ARRI have gone so why not.

In terms of lenses, I wonder how many of their RF lenses actually cover MF?  Maybe that's something they've been working on in the background.  It would certainly help to justify their enormous prices.

Or maybe they'll make an adapter for medium format glass from others, eg, the ARRI medium format glass.  

The other thing that strikes me about it was the 186x56 size, which would obviously require specialist glass, but might be for recording a huge resolution panorama for backgrounds for VFX work?  Obviously it would be a speciality set of electronics (sensor, processor, etc) but it seems plausible to be something that industry would want, similar to having Phantom cameras as a slow-motion speciality camera.

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Plot twist. This patent is actually for the Komodo. Canon makes it for RED.

Just a thought. Probably an incorrect one but it is oddly similar isn't it?

Do you have any links for this?  I'm curious to read a bit more.

3 hours ago, leslie said:

i was taking a more along  the lines of actual guerrilla shooting, not paying for permits that sort of thing. Mums and dads is quite different and quite obvious as to whats going on. 

i'm not sure i'd call educating some security personal a failure. Sure its a waste of 5 minutes of your time however most of these courses are kinda rudimentary, and half the time its a second job for some poor soul. Cant see them covering the differences between mum and dads and guerilla filmmaking in the course material.   

For those of us who have nice gear and want to use it. I feel it all comes back to leading from the front. Take your gear use it where you can, sure you will be looked at, sometimes questioned even nocked back at times. For those time it may be wise to have a smart phone as a backup  I reckon we just have to accept the fact that people will need educating.

i do know if you want to clear a room either cough really loud or pull out a camera bigger than a smartphone.    🤣

i had my p4k in the main street of town taking some footage of the old post office which has a large clock set into the tower. It amused me that people where actually crossing the street to go around me. Mostly women, which amused me even more as women generally goto great lengths to look good before they go out, then when they do come across a guy with a camera they head in the opposite direction  😀

I view it as a micro version of going to court and being acquitted.  It's embarrassing, interrupts what I'm doing and takes up my leisure time, and is basically a whole lot of hassle for zero benefit.  I prefer not to have to "educate" anyone, as quite frankly, I'm skeptical of actually changing anything.  My experience of security guards is that the ones that are likely to hassle someone who is obviously not shooting something professional but do it anyway is that they're not likely to actually listen to what you say.  Plus, if I'm in a museum or whatever, they have full control and what they say goes, even if it makes no sense.  You can try and escalate to someone more sensible, but you're putting them in a position of choosing between being sensible and supporting their staff, which normally they side with their staff because they have to work with that person.

Anyone who has actually been to court and witnessed what can happen knows that the best strategy is to just never get put into that situation in the first place.  I went once to support a friend of a friend and the judge was in a bad mood and basically gave everyone the maximum penalty, and highlights included "I hate people like you" and "you wouldn't be here if you hadn't done something wrong".

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I get it from both sides. I live in a small town, 12,000 people that has a large college in it, 25,000. The young girls think I am a Pervert and the women with kids think I am a Pedophile lol. I can't win.

 But on the weekends when both the boys and girls are drunk, they come up to me and want to be in my movie lol.

Another reason I'd prefer not to stand out, and thus, smaller cameras are better.