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Live Streaming Explosion


Geoff CB
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53 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

This is a nice little device, as I am old school, I prefer dedicated hardware for specific jobs. The cost is fine. 

If you decide later on that you want to go a bit further and use something like vMix, the ATEM Mini will still not be a wasted investment as at the very least it can act as a 4 into 1 camera switch input into the computer as one channel while you can also then bring in other sources on the others.

Also, because it is idiot proof, you can dry hire it to people who are doing conferences and what not.

This channel is excellent not only for product reviews of affordable products for live work but also in detailing how he implements and scales his kit for differing jobs.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-6rohWvTkl4mzvoDbxDGxQ/videos

 

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38 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Thanks for that suggestion.  A few months ago I had a request for live streaming in a remote part of a state park.  Knowing that this technology could be used sounds promising.

There is a cost involved to use the Sharelink bonding service but you can either do pay as you go on demand or pay monthly so its pretty flexible and not too expensive.

https://teradek.com/collections/sharelink

For live streaming to YouTube it would work out at around $1-1.50 per hour on the PAYG rate but obviously that is a billable cost that can be passed on to a client.

The other advantage of Sharelink is that you can have the cellular phones you are using to bond with to have SIM cards in from different providers so it provides redundancy in areas with no coverage or over saturation on a particular providers network.

A lot of this stuff will become moot when 5G rolls out everywhere but that is some way off yet.

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2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

have the cellular phones you are using to bond with to have SIM cards in from different providers so it provides redundancy in areas with no coverage or over saturation on a particular providers network.

Good info.  Yes, as mentioned, it's potentially for a state park so the location will always be a bit remote and there's only 1 tower to serve most of the area.  Consolidating a dozen SIMs and dedicating that bandwidth would go a long way to protecting the stream.  And, yeah, costs passed on with the invoice, so no worries there.

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How are you guys feeling about live switching vs editing?  I'm not a very experienced editor by and means, but I know enough to get the impression that live-switching (real-time editing) is a different skillset than editing in an NLE.  Also continuity editing multiple angles of the same scene is different to something like a narrative where you might be skipping around a bit in time, so that's another factor.

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7 hours ago, kye said:

How are you guys feeling about live switching vs editing?  I'm not a very experienced editor by and means, but I know enough to get the impression that live-switching (real-time editing) is a different skillset than editing in an NLE.  

It is definitely a skill deciding in the moment, rather than retrospectively, what should be the focus of attention but also anticipating that so you are ready to switch to it.

Livestream make an interesting streaming product line called Mevo which essentially are wide angle cameras that through software can create different shot sizes to create a pseudo multi camera setup.

https://mevo.com

It can emulate zooms, pans and even does follow shots.

It has an autopilot feature that does this automatically to do all this live without you having to touch it and its decision making works better than you might imagine!

Something like this might actually be a product that finds a bigger audience in the new world of home broadcast because it is easy to setup, fully integrated with the streaming platforms and and the autopilot function makes it far easier to use solo to make a cohesive show.

Price wise as well its very affordable, particularly when you take into account that its the camera, switcher and encoder all rolled into one.

Its a pity that they don't do a software only version so that you could use your own camera as its that that is the weak link in the package.

To be fair though, in a trade-off between absolute image quality and cohesion of the actual content, there is an argument where the tradeoff to 'adequate' on the image quality is the right call. 

No point plugging four high quality cameras into an all singing all dancing setup if you stumble over switching to the right one !

This is a good overview of the new Mevo Start incarnation 

 

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35 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It has an autopilot feature that does this automatically to do all this live without you having to touch it and its decision making works better than you might imagine!

That's quite impressive and certainly shows where the tech can go.  

Do you know of systems that will work with multiple angles and switch automatically?  The Mevo seems good for a plug-n-play home or gaming setup but especially with its 1080p sensor isn't good enough for anything more than that.  Something that can have a few HDMI inputs, or even has a few of those integrated cameras that talk to each other would be very interesting.

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1 hour ago, kye said:

That's quite impressive and certainly shows where the tech can go.  

Do you know of systems that will work with multiple angles and switch automatically?  The Mevo seems good for a plug-n-play home or gaming setup but especially with its 1080p sensor isn't good enough for anything more than that.  Something that can have a few HDMI inputs, or even has a few of those integrated cameras that talk to each other would be very interesting.

The Mevo Plus has a 4K sensor to be fair.

https://mevo.com/mevo-plus/

Livestream themselves have a very sophisticated product called Studio that can switch multiple Mevos but can also do the multi angle crop trick on external cameras.

Not sure it does the auto stuff though.

Its free for subscribers to Livestream/Vimeo as well but that is a $70 a month cost if not.

It does the multi cellular device bonding trick as well but only when streaming to Livestream itself.

https://livestream.com/studio

 

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

You can find gear to buy?? For a little while there it seemed you couldn't get the popular live streaming gear for love or money!
 

The blackmagic gear and switchers are all out of stock. For my needs I got this to hook up my F3: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DPVG74G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Edit: wow, Apparently I got the last SDI version of it in stock and they removed the listing, only HDMI version available. All the others have unknown delivery dates that might not be until May, crazy.

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13 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Edit: wow, Apparently I got the last SDI version of it in stock and they removed the listing, only HDMI version available. All the others have unknown delivery dates that might not be until May, crazy.

it is a mad mad mad world we live in, and our politicians are only making it even worse

Personally I kinda want to get the Blackmagic ATEM Mini, but I don't know:
1) when will they be next in stock?? (and which store is best to buy from?)
2) when will courier services resume, how long is the backlog, what is the risk of items being "lost" now?
3) will there still be a demand for live streaming by the time this finally finally gets to me???
4) should I even be spending any extra money in these extremely uncertain times, and should I perhaps just keep every penny I can in my back account as a "rainy day fund"?? (as gloomy dark rainy days are surely here!)

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

it is a mad mad mad world we live in, and our politicians are only making it even worse

Personally I kinda want to get the Blackmagic ATEM Mini, but I don't know:
1) when will they be next in stock?? (and which store is best to buy from?)
2) when will courier services resume, how long is the backlog, what is the risk of items being "lost" now?
3) will there still be a demand for live streaming by the time this finally finally gets to me???
4) should I even be spending any extra money in these extremely uncertain times, and should I perhaps just keep every penny I can in my back account as a "rainy day fund"?? (as gloomy dark rainy days are surely here!)

i tend to think so long as their registered resellers, then the cheapest store is the best, thats the path i went down when  i procured the p4k 

no  idea how things will progress , our government is already throwing tremendous amounts of money around. They may need to throw some at the nbn if we all get stuck at home for too long. i saw an interview with some expert saying then nbn is quite robust and will handle the situtation kinda like what they were saying at the start of this outbreak :blush:

How to recoup money spent on hardware is an issue maybe you can write it of on your tax perhaps.

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10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

it is a mad mad mad world we live in, and our politicians are only making it even worse

Personally I kinda want to get the Blackmagic ATEM Mini, but I don't know:
1) when will they be next in stock?? (and which store is best to buy from?)
2) when will courier services resume, how long is the backlog, what is the risk of items being "lost" now?
3) will there still be a demand for live streaming by the time this finally finally gets to me???
4) should I even be spending any extra money in these extremely uncertain times, and should I perhaps just keep every penny I can in my back account as a "rainy day fund"?? (as gloomy dark rainy days are surely here!)

Its a tough call.

On the one hand, demand for these services will be much higher after this but on the other, supply will also likely be much higher too as so many video creators are looking to at least semi-pivot to it to meet that demand.

Scalability is going to be important for anyone wanting to provide services, as you can see from HereToRecord's channel that I linked to above as you  might be getting asked to live stream anything from a single camera talking head of a company boss announcement to different branch offices up to a full blown multi camera job for a live gig etc.

From that point of view, the ATEM Mini is a safe purchase, particularly at the price point.

It means you can make it affordable for a single camera job as you haven't got big $ tied up in something like a Newtek Tricaster that you need to charge accordingly for and at the same time its capable enough to handle more elaborate jobs when needed.

Where you need to separate yourself out from everyone else who is about to start doing this is likely in terms of how much production value you can give as a single operator because the other new reality is that whilst demands for the service may go up budgets for everything are going to be much smaller and price cutting will get more desperate to match because you will have more people after a slice of a smaller pie.

One element where you yourself will be able to score is on the audio side where you will not only have a big leg up in terms of experience but also in the fact you already own the equipment so won't have to plough money into that.

It won't take many jobs before the customer realises that two cameras and great audio is far better than four cameras with bad audio.

On the camera side, in a similar vein, having two lower tier cameras that match perfectly in terms of look and quality is far more preferable to a mixed bag of four that are all over the place.

How these elements can then controlled by a single operator in terms of live control of pan, tilt, zoom, exposure, focus etc to mitigate not having multiple camera operators will play a big part in what you can offer a client within their budget without compromising the production value.

For this reason, I am definitely plan to devote a portion of my widgeting development time after I've finished the, erm, "secret project" to providing some solutions for that.

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11 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Where you need to separate yourself out from everyone else who is about to start doing this is likely in terms of how much production value you can give as a single operator because the other new reality is that whilst demands for the service may go up budgets for everything are going to be much smaller and price cutting will get more desperate to match because you will have more people after a slice of a smaller pie.

One element where you yourself will be able to score is on the audio side where you will not only have a big leg up in terms of experience but also in the fact you already own the equipment so won't have to plough money into that.

It won't take many jobs before the customer realises that two cameras and great audio is far better than four cameras with bad audio.

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11 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

On the camera side, in a similar vein, having two lower tier cameras that match perfectly in terms of look and quality is far more preferable to a mixed bag of four that are all over the place.


Oh no... are you giving me an excuse to buy a second Sony PMW-F3?? 😉

 

Edit: 
In less than a couple of days Blackmagic is going to be announcing new live streaming products?

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/04/01/blackmagic-design-live-production-camera-update-event/

Seems like at the very least, before doing anything, I should wait for what this is!

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10 hours ago, IronFilm said:


Oh no... are you giving me an excuse to buy a second Sony PMW-F3?? 😉

 

No, I'm going to give you an excuse to buy THREE more of them....

If you get the Atomos Shogun 7 you can plug them all into it and use its new switcher functionality.

This functionality allows you to live switch the four cameras off the touchscreen to its program out and then out to the internet via your chosen route (the Teradek Vidiu Pro for example is ideal for a computer free route) but in addition it simultaneously records all four cameras individually and the switched version that you've output.

The icing on the cake is that it also produces a multi cam xml file of the switching that you did so that you can pull the whole project into your NLE and re-cut it. 

That means that say you were doing a live stream of a gig, you could be switching from the Atomos but then afterwards make another saleable product for the band with different cuts, colour correction, better sound etc from the same cameras.

This demo is primarily on the Sumo but it has the same functionality on the Shogun.

And this one is more focused on a real use using the Shogun.

 

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

In less than a couple of days Blackmagic is going to be announcing new live streaming products?

https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/04/01/blackmagic-design-live-production-camera-update-event/

Seems like at the very least, before doing anything, I should wait for what this is!

If they launch a four channel switcher thats cheaper than the ATEM Mini then I'll buy you it myself ;) 

I'm curious whether they have maybe done a quick turnaround cheap single channel or dual channel product (ATEM Micro?) to address the current needs of journalists in lockdown, which would be great as the vast majority of them seem to be using the in built camera on their laptops even if they are working for national broadcasters.

And a sub section of those also appear to have smeared those cameras in vaseline.

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54 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

No, I'm going to give you an excuse to buy THREE more of them....

If you get the Atomos Shogun 7 you can plug them all into it and use its new switcher functionality.

Oh dear, stop making compelling arguments for me to spend even more. The Atomos Shogun 7 is interesting. 

But nooo.... we're in a Depression!

 

 

55 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

If they launch a four channel switcher thats cheaper than the ATEM Mini then I'll buy you it myself ;) 

I'll hold you to it!
 

56 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm curious whether they have maybe done a quick turnaround cheap single channel or dual channel product (ATEM Micro?) to address the current needs of journalists in lockdown, which would be great as the vast majority of them seem to be using the in built camera on their laptops even if they are working for national broadcasters.


Here are my wild guesses / predictions for what live streaming products they'll announce:

Web Presenter with 4K (or at the very least one that does FHD! And not just merely 720P. But also at a lower price, as at the moment Web Presenter seems a bit pricey vs say for instance the ATEM Mini?)

Or, a 4K version of the ATEM Mini. 

 

56 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

And a sub section of those also appear to have smeared those cameras in vaseline.

They were getting their filmmaking tips from old school DoPs who used to shoot on film. 

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On 3/29/2020 at 8:04 AM, BTM_Pix said:

The Mevo Plus has a 4K sensor to be fair.

https://mevo.com/mevo-plus/

Livestream themselves have a very sophisticated product called Studio that can switch multiple Mevos but can also do the multi angle crop trick on external cameras.

Not sure it does the auto stuff though.

Its free for subscribers to Livestream/Vimeo as well but that is a $70 a month cost if not.

It does the multi cellular device bonding trick as well but only when streaming to Livestream itself.

https://livestream.com/studio

 

I thought I would resurrect this thread as it looks like Logitech will be announcing a new MEVO product on the 17th with the m43 sensor/mount.  The video specs are not great but it will be interesting to see how far they take this.  The 6400mAh battery should provide a very long run time.

 

https://asobinet.com/logitech-announces-micro-four-thirds-camera-for-live-streaming-on-march-19/

Interchangeable lens camera Mevo Core

micro four thirds system

Dual USB-C ports

3.5mm audio interface

HDMI output

microSD card slot

6400mAh replaceable battery

1/4 inch screw

cold shoe

USB-C 20W power supply

4K 30fps output

Compatible with Mevo Multicum APP

 

Mevo.jpg?resize=768,675&ssl=1

 

Mevo-2.jpg?resize=768,745&ssl=1

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On 3/28/2020 at 8:15 AM, kye said:

I've seen lots of live streams pop up in my YT feed, which is normally much higher percentage of edited content.

I must admit I'm not a fan.  Watching someone read the chat in real-time mixed in with "is this on" and then deliver unrehearsed unfocused content just makes me angry that the person chose to waste my time instead of spending theirs editing.

Professional live streams are like TV talk shows or the news and require large amounts of hours of prep and a crew of multiple people.  Most streaming online is like watching the dailies from a set that never hit stop between takes.

The minimum number of people required for a professional live stream is three:

  1. someone to control the tech
  2. someone to present the content
  3. someone to manage the chat and feed good questions to the presenter so we don't spend minutes at a time watching them read the chat

They also require a huge amount of preparation - to the extent that the presenter can deliver the content with crystal clarity and almost zero mistakes.

I re-read this thread out of curiosity and I have to say that I think things have changed a little over the last 4 years - streamers seem to have gotten a bit more organised and are less likely to be fumbling around and having lots of dead time.

I have also noticed that there are new approaches to streaming too.  One I particularly enjoy is where the female streamers do a live review of the people that have been banned and then appealed, which is normally absolutely hilarious and also has no dead time, despite not requiring any preparation.

Have people been doing a lot of live-streaming for clients etc?  or themselves?

My wife is just starting an online training business, so there will be lots of streaming in my future...

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16 hours ago, kye said:

Have people been doing a lot of live-streaming for clients etc?  or themselves?

I've done hundreds of hours now in English training. It's not my main gig, but it's good to do something a little different.

I use a GH2 with the Olympus 17mm f/1.8, a M2 MacMini, a Behringer mixer, a Atem Mini, a Audio-Technica AT 875 R, an iPad Pro 12.9", an Apple Pencil, 3 cheap lights with softboxes, and some decent headphones. I've tried many other things too, but so far, this works best for me. My cardinal rule is to have as much as possible with a cord and no batteries as to reduce my single point failures. My only exception is the Apple Pencil, but I plug it in whenever I'm done. The key for me is to have as little setup time as possible- just flip one or two switches and I'm up and ready to go.

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