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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS R5 - What Panasonic, Sony and Fuji can do to fight THE 8K BEAST

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Seems like Canon has really turned a corner recently. I know people like to blast them, but their initial mirrorless cameras really seem to just be old tech to max out profits from the R&D of the 2010-2018 DSLR lineups. 

But end of 2019 and now 2020 seems to be the time they are rolling out all the tech they've been working on the past few years. 

Their last few announcements have been pretty huge. The C500 II has 6k Raw up to 60fps. Plus full-frame. Plus full frame 10-bit in 4k. Plus 4k raw. The 1DX III, while not my favorite form factor, is not really crippled in any way. 5.5k raw up to 60fps. 10-bit 4k in full-frame. All-intra codecs. Etc. There are just no other cameras even in these ballparks at these price points. 

What the C300 III (hopefully RF and at NAB 2020) and EOS R5 and R6 are will really show whether this is a new direction for Canon or just a blip that snuck through. But I really think Canon has turned over a new leaf.

In comparison, Sony, with the FX9, every A7 or A9 release since the A7sII, seem like the conservative ones. Same 8-bit codec. Same FS7 features in the FX9. No raw. No 6k. But I guess when you get out in front, might as well just keep making money off of old tech. Canon was like that for a decade and now realize they need to fight back. Sony will probably have a huge 2022, once they lose a lot of recent converts back to the company lots of people grew up with: Canon. 

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1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

In comparison, Sony, with the FX9, every A7 or A9 release since the A7sII, seem like the conservative ones. Same 8-bit codec. Same FS7 features in the FX9. No raw. No 6k. But I guess when you get out in front, might as well just keep making money off of old tech. Canon was like that for a decade and now realize they need to fight back. Sony will probably have a huge 2022, once they lose a lot of recent converts back to the company lots of people grew up with: Canon. 

I completely agree. Laughing my head off but nodding along as well. It's the height of irony. Just as Canon suddenly wake up from 8 year sleepy time, Sony doze off into 8bit slumberland and awol products. A7S III if it ever comes out now has to outsell a Canon body with potentially superior specs, rather than the usual crippled one.

Even when Sony had far better specs had trouble outselling Canon!

There are still two ways this could play out in 2020...

Sony A7S III comes out with moderately what we expect... 4K 60P, 10bit, Venice Colour science if we're lucky, better EVF and screen, Z battery, and a few tweaks to the menus.

Canon EOS R5 shoots 8K but cripple hammer hits it and it doesn't quite do 4K 60p in full frame, or there is a codec problem, no 10bit, or rolling shutter is so extreme it makes the leaning tower of pisa stand upright.

The other way is this...

Sony A7S III is also 8K, with superior specs to the Canon R5 and R6

But R5 and R6 don't hold back, go all out as well, with internal Canon RAW on the R6 like the 1D X Mark III has.

In this situation Sony is also going to find it difficult.

The third outcome is less likely and that is that Sony A7S III is a total revolution with eND, new form factor, low price, internal compressed Sony RAW codec, 8K and quad bayer 4K 120fps. Bonkers specs and all the Sony foibles gone. Totally new menu system and colour science revolution.

(haha not going to happen)

But I am starting to think that's what is needed.

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On 2/13/2020 at 8:09 AM, thebrothersthre3 said:

The S1H is pretty peak in terms of image. It just needs better AF, 5" screen, and internal compressed RAW.

Pretty excited to see this new Fuji camera. The Canon's are going to be tough to beat with their awesome lens lineup. I am guessing they'll be twice the price of what Fuji is putting out.

Right now the S1H looks good spec wise.  In 8 months it won't look so special with the new sensors coming out.

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4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I completely agree. Laughing my head off but nodding along as well. It's the height of irony. Just as Canon suddenly wake up from 8 year sleepy time, Sony doze off into 8bit slumberland and awol products. A7S III if it ever comes out now has to outsell a Canon body with potentially superior specs, rather than the usual crippled one.

Even when Sony had far better specs had trouble outselling Canon!

There are still two ways this could play out in 2020...

Sony A7S III comes out with moderately what we expect... 4K 60P, 10bit, Venice Colour science if we're lucky, better EVF and screen, Z battery, and a few tweaks to the menus.

Canon EOS R5 shoots 8K but cripple hammer hits it and it doesn't quite do 4K 60p in full frame, or there is a codec problem, no 10bit, or rolling shutter is so extreme it makes the leaning tower of pisa stand upright.

The other way is this...

Sony A7S III is also 8K, with superior specs to the Canon R5 and R6

But R5 and R6 don't hold back, go all out as well, with internal Canon RAW on the R6 like the 1D X Mark III has.

In this situation Sony is also going to find it difficult.

The third outcome is less likely and that is that Sony A7S III is a total revolution with eND, new form factor, low price, internal compressed Sony RAW codec, 8K and quad bayer 4K 120fps. Bonkers specs and all the Sony foibles gone. Totally new menu system and colour science revolution.

(haha not going to happen)

But I am starting to think that's what is needed.

Yea, all true. I think the 8K thing is sort of a gimmick and won't be that usable for a variety of reasons - either it won't have a high-end enough codec to be useful or the file sizes will be so large, the average person who would buy a hybrid camera won't use it.

The R6 may be the better bet. They basically just need to put the 1DX III specs into an R5 body + IBIS and they're in a HUGE lead. 5.5k raw, 4k 10-bit full frame up to 60fps, great AF, best color, electronic ND with adapter, etc.

 

 

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I think Canon are hoping to catch 5D2/5D3 glory days success with R5. 8K + 45MP could keep this camera selling for the next 3-4 years instead of the usual 1.5-2 year cycle of mirrorless. If they don’t F things up of course.

Its what we’ve been saying for years: Canon could sweep up the market if they just gave us what we want, i.e. a no compromise hybrid solution (that you don’t need to sell a kidney for).

As for R6, i think there’s a bit of confusion as it’s supposed to be a cheaper model (think 6D). Don’t expect 1DX3 in MILC format. 

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Bonjour il me semble qu'un ingénieur de sony a dit qu'il était impossible de mettre le ND variable de FS5 ou FS7 dans un A7 si le capteur est stabilisé.

cordialement

jmarc

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2 hours ago, Super8 said:

Right now the S1H looks good spec wise.  In 8 months it won't look so special with the new sensors coming out.

Of course but we are reaching a point of diminishing returns. We've had 10 bit 422 for a while now(GH5), we've had great low light (A7S), we've had RAW(Pocket camera) but nothing has combined all of them together. Sigma has come close, the S1H comes close, the Pocket 4k/6k come close. They are all missing on of the ingredients. 

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3 hours ago, DEFI63 said:

Bonjour il me semble qu'un ingénieur de sony a dit qu'il était impossible de mettre le ND variable de FS5 ou FS7 dans un A7 si le capteur est stabilisé.

cordialement

jmarc

Personne chez Sony a dit une chose pareille. 

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Costumers are stupid if they are obsessed with resolution. They should be obsessed with writing and producing great content. 8k won't make your story great, f/0.95 won't make your characters interesting, slow motion and gimbal won't build trust for your brand without good copy. This specifications circle jerk just shows what's wrong with this world. Stupid planned obsolescence. It's a photographic camera, cabin will still sell more then all the other brands and still has Cinema CAMERAS, if someone wants to do an indie for as low price. 

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I will believe Canon R5 specs when the camera is tested to see what it can actually do. Sony IBIS was great until somebody actually tried using it with a moving camera and then realized that it was garbage for video work...

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IBIS is great for handheld work in my opinion. I don't know why people expect it to replace a gimbal though.

Isn't it great enough to be able to take the jitter and hand shake out of a steady handheld locked-down frame?

I remember the time when a tripod or shoulder mount was necessary for just about anything.

We are getting spoilt!

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

IBIS is great for handheld work in my opinion. I don't know why people expect it to replace a gimbal though.

Isn't it great enough to be able to take the jitter and hand shake out of a steady handheld locked-down frame?

I remember the time when a tripod or shoulder mount was necessary for just about anything.

We are getting spoilt!

Just use a neck strap like the good old days.

 

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/08/08/your-camera-strap-may-be-all-you-need-to-capture-steady-video

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Sony was close with the A7III. All they need to do is add internal 4K 10-bit 422. And incrementally improve all the other features. Even if their next model A7IV or A7SIII doesn't offer 8K, it can compete on price ($2K). The Canon R5 might retail close to double that.

All things being equal, image quality is close enough among camera brands of the same class. The difference is features. Internal quality codec, autofocus, IBIS, rolling shutter, articulating touchscreen all have to be good enough. 

Unfortunately, right now, everybody has to pick his own poison. 

For example, Panasonic S1H is an exceptional camera in many ways, but the $4K price, inferior autofocus, L-mount make it a nonstarter for me, and I'm guessing, for many others. 

Whether it's R5 or the R6, Canon seems committed to offering a complete package, and other manufacturers will undoubtedly follow suit if they want to survive. 

 

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49 minutes ago, independent said:

For example, Panasonic S1H is an exceptional camera in many ways, but the $4K price, inferior autofocus, L-mount make it a nonstarter for me, and I'm guessing, for many others.

L-mount's problem is the pricing of the lenses and the autofocus. E-mount has been around ages so there is a greater spread on lens pricing and many more of them.

The S1H is a great cine camera and should be seen as a serious manual focus filmmaking tool.

There can be successful cameras at all price points in the market.

The C300 or FS7 did not need consumers to buy them, in order to be profitable lines for Canon and Sony.

I agree a 10bit A7 IV would be nice for $2000... The A7S III and R5/R6 are likely to be $3500 minimum.

5 hours ago, eleison said:

Somebody should do a comparison... Camera strap vs IBIS.

At least IBIS works in any position and saves your arms.

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14 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

Somebody should do a comparison... Camera strap vs IBIS.

At least IBIS works in any position and saves your arms.

Camera straps worked better on heavy DSLR's, though I guess that isn't an issue with something like the S1H seeing its weight. 

An A73 tho or Fuji gets jittery real fast. 

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4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Somebody should do a comparison... Camera strap vs IBIS.

At least IBIS works in any position and saves your arms.

Both, I use the strap "technique" all the time with the GH5 and they nicely complement each other especially at long focal.

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when it comes to the R5, I'm expecting 8k to be useless somehow, but who knows...??

*ID* be thrilled by a full frame canon mirrorless with DPAF all the time, in all modes, no crop on the video in slomo, 4k, or anywhere else, NO CROPPING FOR VIDEO, with IBIS that can work with vintage lenses to some degree, and 4k up to 60fps or more, with clog/robust codec options

that's my wish list!

8k sounds super cool but it's not a selling point for me on an expensive body that I want to use for years to come. that being said..... I'm a total camera nerd lol ofc I wanna see it 😂

 

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20 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Of course but we are reaching a point of diminishing returns. We've had 10 bit 422 for a while now(GH5), we've had great low light (A7S), we've had RAW(Pocket camera) but nothing has combined all of them together. Sigma has come close, the S1H comes close, the Pocket 4k/6k come close. They are all missing on of the ingredients. 

The GH5 was good but that 10 bit 422 wasn't really great quality compared to what BMP4K is getting out of that sensor. No sure Sigma is close to anything. Can you provide links to great Sigma footage?

It's all about full frame right now.

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