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Blackmagic to announce new camera related news at 12 noon PDT (8pm London)

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17 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Yes you can.

The adapters have an optical element.

As above 

Oh yes, those ones :) I forgot about them. But they reduce the light transmission and have a "crop factor". They are reversed speedboosters. But technically you can, you're right :)

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24 minutes ago, Papiskokuji said:

Oh yes, those ones :) I forgot about them. But they reduce the light transmission and have a "crop factor". They are reversed speedboosters. But technically you can, you're right :)

Yeah, I was careful not to add the "but you probably wouldn't want to" so that I could retain the technical win ;)

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12 hours ago, drm said:

The field of view will bit a bit wider with a P4K + Speedbooster. The crop with a P4K + Speedbooster = 1.28 (0.64x) or 1.42 (0.71x) vs. a standard super35 crop of 1.5-1.6.

The P6K sensor is larger and is able to capture 6K raw images and some faster frame rates than the P4K. Most everything else is very similar / same. Also, I have seen comments to the effect that a 6K image downsampled to 4K makes up for the Bayer pattern and will produce a "true" 4K image. So, theoretically the P6K image may be a bit better than the P4K.

Plus, you get bragging rights, since many people bash the P4K because it *only* has a M4/3 sensor. They won't be able to say that about the P6K (/sarc) :grin:

The crop factor will be 1.26 ( 1.9 X 0.64)  vs 1.56.  So if you have FF EF lenses, P4K with SB could be better choice. $1000.00 cheaper too.  

As for the image quality,  P6K downsample from 6K to 4K for  better image quality, but  don't you think the speed booster  when it concentrates the light/image  comes through the lens on the m43 sensor will increase the final image quality closer to 6K downsampling 4K ?

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52 minutes ago, RubanCam said:

The crop factor will be 1.26 ( 1.9 X 0.64)  vs 1.56.  So if you have FF EF lenses, P4K with SB could be better choice. $1000.00 cheaper too.  

As for the image quality,  P6K downsample from 6K to 4K for  better image quality, but  don't you think the speed booster  when it concentrates the light/image  comes through the lens on the m43 sensor will increase the final image quality closer to 6K downsampling 4K ?

Oops, you are right about the crop. I was thinking the M4/3 crop as 2, not the crop factor of 1.9 from the P4K (based on relative sensor width). Super35 is normally a 1.39 crop, not the APS-C size of 1.5-1.6, so the P4K with a speedbooster is 1.9x0.71 = 1.349 is slightly wider than Super35 and the 0.64x booster is even wider.

As to image quality, I am very curious about this as well. I am going to be comparing the P6K vs. the P4K with my 0.71x speedbooster next week. I suspect that there will be little to no difference. I also think that the P4K + booster will be better in low light. I can't imagine that the P6K is one stop better than the P4K, given that the P6K has smaller photosites. If BM had used a "true" Super35 sized sensor (~1.39 crop), then maybe the P6K would be >=, but they used an APS-C sized sensor (which they are calling Super35...)

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4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Can you do FD from EF?

As already mentioned, you cannot do a straight adapter without a cheap optical element to make up the difference in flange distance but there are mount modifications that aren’t too expensive depending on the lens and its’ condition.

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8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

Aside from F mount, you can adapt PL, M42, Contax C/Y, Canon FD, Minolta MD, Leica R amongst others.

The only ones that you are excluded from is Leica M, Sony E, L mount and of course m43.

 

I was under the impression that there's not that many PL lenses that can be adapted to EF mount for some reason? I remember people talking about this when the Red Raven came out, not sure if it's true though.

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You can tell the EF mount was the original design for the P4K body.  Tooling a new mold cost 10's of thousands of dollars. 

The 6K was ht original design and BM planned this all along.  Sucks for P4K owners.

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8 hours ago, johnnyd said:

I was under the impression that there's not that many PL lenses that can be adapted to EF mount for some reason? I remember people talking about this when the Red Raven came out, not sure if it's true though.

Yeah there is a maximum flange distance requirement on the PL lens that can exclude them. The adapters usually list a set of lenses that they have tested so its then a bit of an anecdotal search for compatibility of ones they haven't.

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14 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Yeah there is a maximum flange distance requirement on the PL lens that can exclude them. The adapters usually list a set of lenses that they have tested so its then a bit of an anecdotal search for compatibility of ones they haven't.

Okay that's what I thought and to my understanding this can really limit your lens choice. This made me also think about the anamorphic mode on the camera. How many anamorphic lenses are EF mount or can be adapted to EF mount?

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6 minutes ago, johnnyd said:

Okay that's what I thought and to my understanding this can really limit your lens choice. This made me also think about the anamorphic mode on the camera. How many anamorphic lenses are EF mount or can be adapted to EF mount?

Oddly enough, the SLR magic PL mount lenses are ones that do fit all the EF adapters so you can use their anamorphics with their supplied adapter.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1343712-REG/slr_magic_1_33x_anamorphot_cine_lens_set.html

Obviously at the end of the spectrum that this camera is, most users will be using anamorphic adapters so there are no shortage of EF or adapted to EF mount lenses like Nikon F,Leica R etc that can be used as taking lenses for those so there are plenty of options.

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9 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Oddly enough, the SLR magic PL mount lenses are ones that do fit all the EF adapters so you can use their anamorphics with their supplied adapter.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1343712-REG/slr_magic_1_33x_anamorphot_cine_lens_set.html

Obviously at the end of the spectrum that this camera is, most users will be using anamorphic adapters so there are no shortage of EF or adapted to EF mount lenses like Nikon F,Leica R etc that can be used as taking lenses for those so there are plenty of options.

Okay, thanks a lot for the info!

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8 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You can tell the EF mount was the original design for the P4K body.  Tooling a new mold cost 10's of thousands of dollars. 

The 6K was ht original design and BM planned this all along.  Sucks for P4K owners.

@Skip77 "Sucks for P4K owners" 

Why exactly? This is a complementary camera for the P4K, not a replacement. In many ways, the P4K is *better* than the P6K. 

Here are just a few of the ways the P4K is better than the P6K:

  1. The P6K files are more than *double* the size of the P4K files. The P6K is 323 MB/s vs. the P4K at 135 MB/s (at highest recording rates)
  2. Many people have trouble with their computers and workflow editing 4K footage. 6K footage is going to crush their dreams :)
  3. The P6K can not record 4K or DCI 4K footage in BRAW, only ProRes.
  4. The P4K + Speed booster gives you an extra stop of light and a field of view wider than Super35.
  5. The P6K field of view (crop) is less than Super35, despite Blackmagic calling it a "Super35" sensor. The P6K has a diagonal crop of 1.63 vs. 1.39 for Super35 relative to a 36mm x 24mm "full frame" sensor. Based on sensor width, the P6K is 23.10mm vs. 24.89mm for Super35, so the crop based on width is P6K: 1.56 vs. Super35: 1.45. So, based on width, the P6K is close to Super35 size.
  6. The P4K + 0.71x Speed booster has a width based crop factor of 1.35, wider than Super35.
  7. I will be researching this next week, but I suspect that the P4K + Speed booster will do better in low light than the P6K.
  8. Cost: The P4K costs $1295, the P6K costs $2495.
  9. The P4K has a better lens selection because most lenses can be adapted to the Micro 4/3 mount used by the P4K, including the EF lenses used on the P6K.

I have a P6K that will arrive tomorrow. I have no intention of replacing all of my P4Ks with P6Ks, even though I could easily do so. They will work together and make an excellent team as they should cut perfectly together with each other.

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7 minutes ago, drm said:

@Skip77 "Sucks for P4K owners" 

Why exactly? This is a complementary camera for the P4K, not a replacement. In many ways, the P4K is *better* than the P6K. 

Here are just a few of the ways the P4K is better than the P6K:

  1. The P6K files are more than *double* the size of the P4K files. The P6K is 323 MB/s vs. the P4K at 135 MB/s (at highest recording rates)
  2. Many people have trouble with their computers and workflow editing 4K footage. 6K footage is going to crush their dreams :)
  3. The P6K can not record 4K or DCI 4K footage in BRAW, only ProRes.
  4. The P4K + Speed booster gives you an extra stop of light and a field of view wider than Super35.
  5. The P6K field of view (crop) is less than Super35, despite Blackmagic calling it a "Super35" sensor. The P6K has a diagonal crop of 1.63 vs. 1.39 for Super35 relative to a 36mm x 24mm "full frame" sensor. Based on sensor width, the P6K is 23.10mm vs. 24.89mm for Super35, so the crop based on width is P6K: 1.56 vs. Super35: 1.45. So, based on width, the P6K is close to Super35 size.
  6. The P4K + 0.71x Speed booster has a width based crop factor of 1.35, wider than Super35.
  7. I will be researching this next week, but I suspect that the P4K + Speed booster will do better in low light than the P6K.
  8. Cost: The P4K costs $1295, the P6K costs $2495.
  9. The P4K has a better lens selection because most lenses can be adapted to the Micro 4/3 mount used by the P4K, including the EF lenses used on the P6K.

I have a P6K that will arrive tomorrow. I have no intention of replacing all of my P4Ks with P6Ks, even though I could easily do so. They will work together and make an excellent team as they should cut perfectly together with each other.

This. Unless you are shooting 6K BRAW exclusively (the Pocket6K doesn't do 6k in ProRes) then the Pocket4K at half the price is the better buy IMO.

Also, with the SpeedBooster on the P4K, all my full frame lenses are closer to their proper FOV than what they will be on the P6K.

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3 hours ago, drm said:

@Skip77 "Sucks for P4K owners" 

Why exactly? This is a complementary camera for the P4K, not a replacement. In many ways, the P4K is *better* than the P6K. 

Here are just a few of the ways the P4K is better than the P6K:

  1. The P6K files are more than *double* the size of the P4K files. The P6K is 323 MB/s vs. the P4K at 135 MB/s (at highest recording rates)
  2. Many people have trouble with their computers and workflow editing 4K footage. 6K footage is going to crush their dreams :)
  3. The P6K can not record 4K or DCI 4K footage in BRAW, only ProRes.
  4. The P4K + Speed booster gives you an extra stop of light and a field of view wider than Super35.
  5. The P6K field of view (crop) is less than Super35, despite Blackmagic calling it a "Super35" sensor. The P6K has a diagonal crop of 1.63 vs. 1.39 for Super35 relative to a 36mm x 24mm "full frame" sensor. Based on sensor width, the P6K is 23.10mm vs. 24.89mm for Super35, so the crop based on width is P6K: 1.56 vs. Super35: 1.45. So, based on width, the P6K is close to Super35 size.
  6. The P4K + 0.71x Speed booster has a width based crop factor of 1.35, wider than Super35.
  7. I will be researching this next week, but I suspect that the P4K + Speed booster will do better in low light than the P6K.
  8. Cost: The P4K costs $1295, the P6K costs $2495.
  9. The P4K has a better lens selection because most lenses can be adapted to the Micro 4/3 mount used by the P4K, including the EF lenses used on the P6K.

I have a P6K that will arrive tomorrow. I have no intention of replacing all of my P4Ks with P6Ks, even though I could easily do so. They will work together and make an excellent team as they should cut perfectly together with each other.

What a lesson man with this one addressed to that smart dude... ; -)

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4 hours ago, drm said:

@Skip77 "Sucks for P4K owners" 

Why exactly? This is a complementary camera for the P4K, not a replacement. In many ways, the P4K is *better* than the P6K. 

Here are just a few of the ways the P4K is better than the P6K:

  1. The P6K files are more than *double* the size of the P4K files. The P6K is 323 MB/s vs. the P4K at 135 MB/s (at highest recording rates)
  2. Many people have trouble with their computers and workflow editing 4K footage. 6K footage is going to crush their dreams :)
  3. The P6K can not record 4K or DCI 4K footage in BRAW, only ProRes.
  4. The P4K + Speed booster gives you an extra stop of light and a field of view wider than Super35.
  5. The P6K field of view (crop) is less than Super35, despite Blackmagic calling it a "Super35" sensor. The P6K has a diagonal crop of 1.63 vs. 1.39 for Super35 relative to a 36mm x 24mm "full frame" sensor. Based on sensor width, the P6K is 23.10mm vs. 24.89mm for Super35, so the crop based on width is P6K: 1.56 vs. Super35: 1.45. So, based on width, the P6K is close to Super35 size.
  6. The P4K + 0.71x Speed booster has a width based crop factor of 1.35, wider than Super35.
  7. I will be researching this next week, but I suspect that the P4K + Speed booster will do better in low light than the P6K.
  8. Cost: The P4K costs $1295, the P6K costs $2495.
  9. The P4K has a better lens selection because most lenses can be adapted to the Micro 4/3 mount used by the P4K, including the EF lenses used on the P6K.

I have a P6K that will arrive tomorrow. I have no intention of replacing all of my P4Ks with P6Ks, even though I could easily do so. They will work together and make an excellent team as they should cut perfectly together with each other.

It seems like GH5 and P4K owners love to tinker with the adapters and metabones this or that. All trying to see how one lens works and gives you the best picture and results.  On one side I understand this because you want to get more from your camera.  I have the same mind set and we all do. But that's a big waste of time if you think about it and it limits what you can do. 

The P6K gives you a full frame look right out of the box compared to the P4K. 

The m43 sensor is the bottle reck with the Gh5 and P4K and owners of these cameras know it.  You can argue all day that it's not but APS-C is the sweet spot for sensors. You's go from APS-C to Full frame and not backwards.

The P6K will do better in low light. This happens when you move up to a bigger sensor. The P6K also has better processor and gives you upgrades across the board in what it can produce.  Yes the P6K and P4K can work perfect together and that's great. 

It sucks for P4K owners because they might have waited or bought the P6K if it was released together with the P4K. 

The Canon to m43 metabones adaptor is $649 -  How do you justify that when that closes the gap to the P6K?  Once you let people know the real cost of adapting lenses for the P4K they cost is much closer to the P6K.   

The P4K is still a great camera for great price but the m43 put a lot of people off including me.  

If I get the P6K and 3 EF Canon prime lenses, then I have invested in glass that I can use on the RED and ARRI systems or the C200.  

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

What a lesson man with this one addressed to that smart dude... ; -)

You say this but you claim to have pre-ordered the P6K.   Why did you do this if the P4K is the better buy and just as good?

Read my comments above and you will get educated.  The speed booster cost alone with getting away from the m43 sensor is worth the upgrade from the P4K.  This is easy to see unless you don't have the funds to afford the P6K. 

4 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

This. Unless you are shooting 6K BRAW exclusively (the Pocket6K doesn't do 6k in ProRes) then the Pocket4K at half the price is the better buy IMO.

Also, with the SpeedBooster on the P4K, all my full frame lenses are closer to their proper FOV than what they will be on the P6K.

The Canon to m43 adaptor is $649, right?  The math says it's not the better buy and you have issues with speed boasters and m43.   

You guys should argue and justify your P4K purchase. I would but it's also why the P6K sucks for P4K owners.  Good luck unloading that P4K for close to what you paid. No one talks about the price being so low that resale value will be next to nothing.  ( This is if BM keep producing the P4K in numbers that keeps it form being back ordered). 

People jumped on the P4K for the price and knowing nothing would come out to match the cost to value. That's changed with the P6K.  

And no adding adaptors is not what 90% of people want to have to do.  The only reason to do it is the m43 is limited and this makes up for it's shortcomings. 

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On 8/10/2019 at 12:13 PM, RubanCam said:

The crop factor will be 1.26 ( 1.9 X 0.64)  vs 1.56.  So if you have FF EF lenses, P4K with SB could be better choice. $1000.00 cheaper too.  

As for the image quality,  P6K downsample from 6K to 4K for  better image quality, but  don't you think the speed booster  when it concentrates the light/image  comes through the lens on the m43 sensor will increase the final image quality closer to 6K downsampling 4K ?

Does the speed booster happen to come FREE when you buy the P4K?  If not then why the $1,000 cheaper comments from P4K owners?  This is not correct information to be spreading. 

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