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Alt Shoo

JVC is back with a new cinema camera!!

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5 hours ago, heart0less said:

It's kinda sad..

In the first question I answered that: no, I do not create video content for a living, nor do I plan to.

And - voila, I was thanked for taking the survey. 

😥

 

Me too, I only do this for a hobby, shrug...

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5 hours ago, heart0less said:

It's kinda sad..

In the first question I answered that: no, I do not create video content for a living, nor do I plan to.

And - voila, I was thanked for taking the survey. 

😥

 

I saw the first question and closed the window..  but that's fair enough, we have lots of cameras aimed at us.  However this thing lands, I think the price won't be aimed at me!

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1 hour ago, kye said:

I saw the first question and closed the window..  but that's fair enough, we have lots of cameras aimed at us.  However this thing lands, I think the price won't be aimed at me!

Yeah if you are not a Pro making money on it eat shit and die on the survey. Pretty gay, Like someone who is just a hobbiest can't contribute a good suggestion?

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14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah if you are not a Pro making money on it eat shit and die on the survey. Pretty gay, Like someone who is just a hobbiest can't contribute a good suggestion?

I think I kind of agree with them.  You're right that a hobbyist could make a good suggestion, but in a way we could also make a bad one, and in that sense it's better to keep us out of the data.  

I mean, how many times have you been talking about something and had people coming into the conversation with bone-headed ideas and you've just felt like saying "THIS ISN'T FOR YOU..  FRACK OFF!!" 😂😂😂

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11 minutes ago, kye said:

I think I kind of agree with them.  You're right that a hobbyist could make a good suggestion, but in a way we could also make a bad one, and in that sense it's better to keep us out of the data.  

I mean, how many times have you been talking about something and had people coming into the conversation with bone-headed ideas and you've just felt like saying "THIS ISN'T FOR YOU..  FRACK OFF!!" 😂😂😂

That's true, but on the other hand, it would be trivial to hide hobbyists' responses from the response database as they peruse the results.

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29 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Do hobbyists buy cameras... or is that only reserved for professionals? If I was running a camera company I would want to know what my customers wanted regardless of their profession.

FYI: No pros are dropping Red and Arri for a JVC. 

Seems like most hobbyists buy hybrid DSLR type cameras. Its not always the case obviously but I imagine its a pretty small market buying cinema type cameras. Of course the elite are using RED and Arri but there is an inbetween group that would utilize a camera like this. 

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You guys are right..  I retract my comments!

Of course they can just filter the data based on the first question.  Duh.  😂😂😂

And they might find that there is a best-of-both-worlds type situation, like I'm sure BM are enjoying with the P4K where amateurs and pros have found a place for the camera in their tool-bags.

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Even if it was exactly the same but with dual ISO and additionally a good 10bit codec, I would buy that camera for 3500€ and I believe this is the market they have to attend, a good work horse camera around 3000-4000€$£.

Cine cameras like the Z and P4K are good enough for most, but I still haven't bought my P4K cause I do not really need it. A C100mkII with 4K and some more modern features or an even cheaper FS5 with less features is more the market for me.

There is not such a camera at the moment, the JVC LS300 was/is the only one in the market but there are a few shortcomings that can't make it a best buy ever.

Their "lite" codecs right now are very "lite" at times, and not Canon C100mkII good-lite! Also, the low light performance is not good for 2019 (or even '18).

I know most people here want a cheap and incredible cine camera, but there are; Z and P4K can offer you whatever cine you want. Seriously, they are that good and that cheap, what else do you need from one for an indie short or a crash cam of a bigger production?

What I am missing, which is the HUGE BULK of video productions around the world, is a reasonable priced workhorse camera under 5.000$€£.

Changes happen so fast now, that big "investments" in camera bodies are not easy to make, and the lower segments of the market are growing rapidly.

There are literally legions of low budgeted video makers from villages to huge metropolises (Mumbai, Kuala Lumpur, Mexico city, Cairo, etc etc) that want a dependable tool that will bring food to the table and now most served by various flavors of Canon (C100, 70/80D, camcorders even..).

LS300 sold more than we thought, because of some of those people, but still was some kind of an afterthought or one of its shortcomings was a deal breaker for some (e.g terrible monitoring, and those people do not want extra bulk, or extra expenses).

They can make it right this time, but the key here is "pricing", and they know it, and that is good.

Edit: it is interesting that they do not allow "amateurs" to take the survey. It shows to me that are targeting specifically the gap in the market I mentioned above. My impression is that they will try to fit in as much as they could for the most economical price.

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

LS300 sold more than we thought, because of some of those people, but still was some kind of an afterthought or one of its shortcomings was a deal breaker for some (e.g terrible monitoring, and those people do not want extra bulk, or extra expenses).

They can make it right this time, but the key here is "pricing", and they know it, and that is good.

The conversation I had with with someone from JVC regarding the EVF on the LS300 is that they were offered a different option during the development but felt it would have blown the price beyond what they thought was reasonable.

So they are very aware of that shortcoming (though I would say when you add a Ninja V to the LS300 it takes away all that and adds 4K60p so is the best £500 you can spend on it!) so I expect it to be a given that it is addressed in the new one.

The price is an interesting thing in that while the LS300 is a great price now (particularly used) it has had a few price cuts in its life cycle so I'd be surprised to see them get a lot of some of the features they're asking questions about into the sort of launch price that might be anticipated.

When all is said and done, JVC are a very much a traditional broadcast company with the sort of prices that match rather than an aggressive new player.

Having said that, I wouldn't have expected them to come up with a product like the LS300 in the first place so you never know !

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I believe that JVC is more aware of the market this time, but wants to be safer with this device. I say that because the brunt of JVC’s market share comes from the ENG side of things, hence the subdued attitude towards the LS300. That was one of the camera’s aspects which made it a sleeper because most cinematographers don’t look to a company like JVC for a cinema specific tool. Then when JVC hampered the LS300 with capture codecs usually meant for deliverables, that put the shade down for more prospective users. The frail feeling body and lackluster monitoring tools didn’t help much either! 

Another aspect of the LS300 that most didn’t understand and seemed to leave a perpetual confusion amongst our peers, is the MFT mount  JVC decided to use with a S35 sensor instead of something more “logical”. Even with all of the data JVC left in their white papers, sadly most couldn’t wrap their heads around it. I’m not sad about JVC using the MFT mount at all because that was an excellent choice, but sad about the reading comprehension our peers lacked and still when that idea was discussed to no end in the simplest of ways, the concept of using an MFT mount with a S35 sensor was just lost on many.

JVC’s marketing was also shabby because they didn’t get this device into the hands that mattered and the few that they did, really didn’t showcase it properly. Then you have the Blooms of the world, who with their ever increasing condescending attitude towards “regular” people, not even showcasing this device properly, which just made potential users look elsewhere. 

With this impending release, JVC has to separate the concept in users mind that this isn’t an ENG camera and that crowd is kind of annoying because I believe they also had a hand in how the device eventually ended up because of the requests made in their groups. On Facebook there are two serious groups devoted to this camera. One being an ENG related group and the other geared towards cinema using the LS300. In the ENG group the things that are requested, while excellent for those types of users, was just plain annoying for cinema type users. I won’t get into the specifics, but I believe that’s what helped to keep the LS300 in this gray area of the market.

Now here’s an opportunity for JVC to appropriately segment their ENG line of cameras, which they have an abundance of, from this Cinema camera they are producing! They need to get it right and this survey is wonderful! I truly believe a Full Frame sensor will be a wonderful choice, S35 is awesome too, but the market is heading towards Full Frame and JVC needs to be a part of this, with the capture codecs serious cinematographers are requesting! While I’m a big supporter of more resolution and all things 8k, I think 6K without any cropping in the “regular used” framerates would be the happy medium. I also think JVC needs to be forward thinking and have internal SSD recording capabilities like the have on their newly released ENG inspired camera the GY-HC500USPCU.

There’s  more that I would like to address, but this post is getting too long and my family is ready to enjoy this Father’s Day with me! 

 

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2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Edit: it is interesting that they do not allow "amateurs" to take the survey. It shows to me that are targeting specifically the gap in the market I mentioned above. My impression is that they will try to fit in as much as they could for the most economical price.

Fortunately we professional vanity cat video shooters are not regarded as "amateurs" ;)

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13 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I would prefer mirrorless form factor like GH5, NX1 or S1H!

If they could get it into that form factor with the necessary bells and whistles I will support it wholeheartedly because it’ll be easier for gimbal work!

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2 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:

>snip<

Another aspect of the LS300 that most didn’t understand and seemed to leave a perpetual confusion amongst our peers, is the MFT mount  JVC decided to use with a S35 sensor instead of something more “logical”. Even with all of the data JVC left in their white papers, sadly most couldn’t wrap their heads around it. I’m not sad about JVC using the MFT mount at all because that was an excellent choice, but sad about the reading comprehension our peers lacked and still when that idea was discussed to no end in the simplest of ways, the concept of using an MFT mount with a S35 sensor was just lost on many.

>snip<

 

+1 on 1.5x APS-C/Super35 sensors for the M4/3-mount, truly the solution, using established film-stock language, that would provide for smaller and lighter camera/lens systems vs FF, IMHO. M4/3-sensors (aka: ~110-film-size) can then be the "crop" version for that mount system. And, finally, some manufacturer, please...an FZ2000(2500)/RX10-style (read: all-in-one, non-interchangeable wide-to-zoom lens, fully sealed body/lens, body+lens IS) with an M4/3 (or, yes, even an APS-C!) sensor for us run-and-gun nature/wildlife shooters for whom changing lenses in the field is a recipe for disaster! (Sooo close, Panasonic, with the GH5/G9/100-400...sooo close to perfection...too bad about that GH5S omitting IBIS, though, Ha!)

But, hey, I'm just some "lowly" enthusiast who, so far, only volunteers his retiree's time and resources with posts to the eBird/Macaulay Library...

Macaulay Library – A scientific archive for research, education, and conservation, powered by you:

https://www.macaulaylibrary.org/

...so it's unfortunate to read about JVC's (and/or any other manufacturer's) decision to not solicit or investigate (or even filter-out) non-pro/non-paid voices for their imaging/video needs and interests. :)

Edit: So, how about it, JVC? An MILC M4/3-mount APS-C camera to shake up the marketplace segments?! ...with a global shutter, of course! ;) :D

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1 hour ago, Mokara said:

Fortunately we professional vanity cat video shooters are not regarded as "amateurs" ;)

I said "amateurs". Know what I mean!

@BTM_Pix i always use SmallHD Focus, and never an EVF, even if it comes without any of those and I save 200-300€ I will be extremely happy!

 

@Alt Shoo

6K yes, full frame - NO!

I seriously doubt a full frame such camera would be useful or necessary or even competitively priced which is the key point here.

Ursa mini pro cameras, EVA, C cameras, FS cameras AREN'T full frame and they own 99,9% of their market..

P4K, Z, GH cameras are owning a huge portion of their market too with "only" being m43..

When I use full frame cameras I always go to 5.6f or more, to have reasonable depth of field, and newer smaller sensors have great high ISO performance..

The sensor with the m43 mount was/ is an amazing solution for me and speedboosted can cover all bases! This was a plus for me on the previous camera, the company that owns the LS300 I am using since then acquired 2 more GH5 and a Pocket 4K, before the LS300 they were only buying Canon/Sony..

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Well unless you have dual pixel autofocus and tap to focus on the C300, most people will be stopping down their lens to give them a deeper depth of field for ease of focusing. In this case MFT has an advantage because you can have f2.8 light gathering but a 5.6 depth of field which is more forgiving.

I love the MFT mount and hope BM, Panasonic, and Olympus continue to innovate on it. I also think JVC should do the same thing as they did with the LS300: super35 sensor with MFT mount (or some kind of adaptable mount like MAVO) and offer more features in a smaller form factor.

I prioritize weight and carry-ability over sensor size and depth of field. I’m definitely in the minority though. Everybody wants that blurry background because is easier to do them think about composition.

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12 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Well unless you have dual pixel autofocus and tap to focus on the C300, most people will be stopping down their lens to give them a deeper depth of field for ease of focusing. In this case MFT has an advantage because you can have f2.8 light gathering but a 5.6 depth of field which is more forgiving.

I love the MFT mount and hope BM, Panasonic, and Olympus continue to innovate on it. I also think JVC should do the same thing as they did with the LS300: super35 sensor with MFT mount (or some kind of adaptable mount like MAVO) and offer more features in a smaller form factor.

I prioritize weight and carry-ability over sensor size and depth of field. I’m definitely in the minority though. Everybody wants that blurry background because is easier to do them think about composition.

Sounds like a great idea... but there are great ideas that people talk about... and then there are great ideas that people buy. To that end... did you buy one?

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Full frame is ideal IMHO, but S35 is certainly good enough and probably makes more sense at the price point. Plus I'd rather have higher frame rates than Full frame.

Really something that does 10 bit 4k 60p prores with internal ND's is all I want.

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Sounds like a great idea... but there are great ideas that people talk about... and then there are great ideas that people buy. To that end... did you buy one?

I didn’t know about it when I was in the market!

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